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Thread: Best blend thinner discussion

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,156

    Re: Best blend thinner discussion

    TBird,
    I use a 10 percent petrol in WVO blend in our cars. The petrol I get is petrol which the local bike shop empties from bike fuel tanks. In general it is "stale" petrol ie, the volatiles have been evaporated out over time. There is also a proportion of 2 stroke oil in it, but that is fine in a diesel. I supply 2, 20L drums and swap out the full one with another empty I bring along for that purpose.
    Contact a local bike shop, and offer to take away their old stale fuel. Just impress on them not to put degreaser in with the stale petrol. Offer to supply the drums and pick up regularly so that they never run out of a place to put stale fuel.

    Try it out as a blending agent.
    This should overcome your need to boil off the volatiles.

    Regards,
    Tony
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    Toyota Camry Hybrid - (Wife's Car)

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 All body panels, headlights, interior engine and ECU available.


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  2. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    300

    Re: Best blend thinner discussion

    Tbird you should capture the High end fractions and distill them out and use them in your petrol engines.
    Bleeding them to the atmosphere is both wasteful and poluting.

    I have been working on distilling WVO for filtering purposes but in doing so found I could make the oil the consistancy of Diesel or petrol
    depending on how they are taken off. From Veg oil I am able to produce a product that will burn in an open container like petrol from it's own vapors. I intend to use this as a thinning agent for my WVO although there is a light diesel fraction that is easy to produce as well. If all the veg were processed this way, the output would be a light diesel substance that would not require thinning at all and be perfectly clean with no additional processing, drying etc. I have my prototype working well now and have just upscaled to a setup to produce 50L batches. This should take an hour or so of hands on time.

    I have researched this and found that in decades past people were able to get diesel and petrol like substitutes from Veg oil but it seems the info was was sparse and no one really followed up on it. It may be something you would be interested in giving a go as it certainly beats the cost of petrol, isn't hard to set up once you know what to do, it's cheap to run the process and can be done in volume sufficent to run vehicles.
    From what I can tell so far, it should be possible to use nearly any vegetable or mineral base stock with only minor variations to the tuning of the setup.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    621

    Re: Best blend thinner discussion

    Great idea Tony. I have two friends who run bike shops so I'll see what they say.

    Peter1
    I'm not keen on wastage either. To improve the harvesting of light fractions, I pondered on whether condensing them in a recycled icebox would be worth the effort.
    However, I also have been doing distillation of recycled mineral oil to diesel by thermal cracking. I want to run the wvo through in a similar fashion.
    I've made enough from mineral oil to test run the van and what was clear was there were way too many volatile fractions in the sample.
    At least some of the collected sample was ignitable from its' vapors.
    Currently I'm struggling getting consistency with temperature in the oil fired burner. Are you using electricity? It seems like it would be easier but costs more.
    What temperature are you heating to? For mineral oil it's around the 400c mark so a serious amount of heat needed unless vacuum is used.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    621

    Re: Best blend thinner discussion

    Most interesting. Thanks.

    I've tried cracking plastic too. On my first run I got wax, about 6-7litres of it. It was then I realized I needed a reflux to feedback the distillate till it had been cracked to a liquid fraction. By the time I built the reflux and condenser array, I'd decided to use 90percent mineral oil + 10percent plastic as feedstock. This yielded my best result with a sparkling amber fuel. However, the writing was on the wall for the test rig as it was wood fired which was inefficient and cumbersome. I needed a better heat source, cheap or free. I decided to have a try at an oil fired turk burner with a small scale retort, continuos feed. Once I'd solved insulation issues and devised an oil spray system, the unit produced huge amount of heat though more work is needed to stabilize temperature. The turk howls like a hurricane! Efficiency isn't one of its' stronger points either. The turk chewed through a litre of oil in 25 minutes... plus runs a vacuum cleaner(on blow).... and a 16cfm compressor was supplying air for the spray.

    In reality, I've really only identified ways that don't work... or don't work efficiently enough to warrant the time and effort.

    What method of burner control have you devised? Is it drip feed or spray?

    By the way. Good news on the way the van runs with the light volatiles removed. I drove 3 hours round trip today with 2 stops. I couldn't wish for better. I'm optimistic that this solution is what I've been looking for. More testing to come to find the limits!

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    621

    Re: Best blend thinner discussion

    The smell is like nothing I have come across before. It's exactly like smelling salts if you have ever had a whiff of those. It literally almost knocks your head off and then burns your nasal passages.
    That smell!... like sulphur, sounds the same as I get with wmo cracking. It sure is pungent. You don't want any on hands or clothes!


    This isn't inefficency, it's simpy consumption. Yu need fuel to make heat and these are quite efficent at doing that. If the thing dosen't smoke when you are running it, it's efficent. Veg produces roughly 10Kw per litre so your burner is a modest 25? kw ruoughly which is pretty good.
    I have built a few diferent designs, my big turk has run over 400Kw/h. I can throttle it down to just over 10 and designed it to do 200 but found with a bigger blower it would do more. I'm going to build one that does 1000Kw/ hr just for a bit of fun.
    I have been using old, expired LPG cylinders for most of my retorts and for the turks. Are these your vessels of choice too? The 1000kw would be fun. Quite a spectacle!
    I put the airfeed tube as deep in the burning chamber as I can get it then just feed the oil into the airstream. Once the burner is preheated, the oil will vaporise in the burner. If you set up the air entry angle right the thing will run excess air and the burn will be completely clean. By putting a valve on the air inlte as well as the oil feed you can get a good controlability on the output.
    I have a throttle valve on the blower plus a flap to dump all/some of the air volume as an option. I just picked up a multispeed fan which promises to be quieter and easier on the current draw. (Yet to be properly tested). Currently my turk has 1.5" inlet and 3" out.


    I only use dripfeed. I can get away with gravity on the small burners/ output but use a fuel pump for when I really crank them up as the backpressure will tend to blow the oil back and starve the burner. I recently got a new higher pressure blower and tapped a fitting near the output and another in the drum I feed the fuel from. As the backpressure is highest near the blower, this tends to compensate the burner pressure and give a slightly positive pressure in addition to the effects of gravity.
    This still isn't enough to overcome the demands at over 200Kw output but it gets me higher outputs than gravity alone.
    Ah!. There's been one of my problems with gravity feed. The oil stopped flowing fast enough which restricted heat. Your solution is excellent.
    Any oil pre-heating before it gets to the turk? My oil feed is 8mm.


    The one thing with what we are doing is we can be truly fuel independent. If something happened that veg oil became unobtainable, We still have a way and means to produce our own fuel from sources that will always be around. I'm looking to this to be able to produce my own fuel of a quality that new
    vehicles can run on and as a way of making a Biodiesel equivalent without the need for the chemistry I have achieved that already, now is just a matter of getting hold of some larger retorts and putting that 200Kw Burner to work. .
    WMO is around everywhere and easy to get. I have a wrecker sitting on over 600L and growing till I want it. This is real easy to crack back to a diesel or petrol equivalent as you would have seen. I think I'll be getting so much petrol I'll have to get an SI car to use the stuff.
    Fuel independence is certainly one of my goals. As you'd know, there's a wide range of raw material that fuels can be extracted or recycled from. Turbulent times may well be ahead. As one source dries up, I want the flexibility to move onto the next. I have offers of plenty of raw wmo too. I'd want the processing properly sorted first in any case. It's great that you've tested cracking wvo. I'd reasoned that it would be possible but hadn't got far enough with trialing anything, though outside sits 500Litres of wvo as I write.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    lyndoch south australia
    Posts
    326

    Re: Best blend thinner discussion

    also now running a gemini that i use blends for,, hot restarts are not good. After reading yourthoughts on getting rid of light fractions ,today i will paint a jerry can black and leave 20ltrs [ulp ] in the sun and see what happens

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    621

    Re: Best blend thinner discussion

    As an update to my boiling point tests for ULP, I tested again now that it's mid summer. The initial boiling point (IBP) was exactly the same.
    I was surprised as studying the subject, showed that IBP was supposed to vary because of the ambient temperatures the fuel was used in.
    Perhaps the IBP varies between antarctic and tropical conditions and the figure doesn't change so much on a seasonal basis??
    Food for thought...

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,156

    Re: Best blend thinner discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by tbird650 View Post
    As an update to my boiling point tests for ULP, I tested again now that it's mid summer. The initial boiling point (IBP) was exactly the same.
    Was the fuel from the same can? Fuel composition may vary with the seasons and the climatic zone
    I was surprised as studying the subject, showed that IBP was supposed to vary because of the ambient temperatures the fuel was used in.
    Perhaps the IBP varies between antarctic and tropical conditions and the figure doesn't change so much on a seasonal basis??
    Food for thought...

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    621

    Re: Best blend thinner discussion

    I tested ULP I bought 2 days before, so it was a fresh as it can be. It's been about 5months or so since I last tested ULP and that was bought fresh at the time.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,156

    Re: Best blend thinner discussion

    In that case, is it possible that the two ULP samples could have different compositions, with less volatiles in the one for warmer weather? That could explain the results you attained in your 2 tests.

    Regards,
    Tony
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    Toyota Camry Hybrid - (Wife's Car)

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 All body panels, headlights, interior engine and ECU available.


    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


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