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Thread: Small quantities of Bio-Diesel available, Brisbane southside.

  1. #11
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    Re: Small quantities of Bio-Diesel available, Brisbane southside.

    Risky business without ASTM compliance.

  2. #12
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    Re: Small quantities of Bio-Diesel available, Brisbane southside.

    Hi all,
    You can most certainly test the ph of Bio-diesel, it is hygroscopic and even when "dry" contains a very small amount of water. about 1,200 ppm. You test the ph of your raw oil in your Titration and the small amount of "water" in dry fuel is enough to get a reasonably accurate ph value.,with a very expensive digital meter, it is possible to get a very accurate result. I tried these meters years ago, but they are hard to keep calibrated, so I've been using dedicated litmus paper test strips which are quite accurate and cheap!! It is very important to have a ph around 7 , this ensures that alloy fuel components are not damaged by high ph and steel ones not effected by low ph, it also shows you have done a good job on your wash!,. As Tilly stated, I make fuel for customers , so quality is essential and even though the Australian standard does not mention a ph amount, it is widely advised by many makers, universities and researchers on bio-diesel that a neutral ph is necessary for a high quality fuel. I hope that answers your questions , cheers Gregg.

  3. #13
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    Re: Small quantities of Bio-Diesel available, Brisbane southside.

    Hi Gregg,
    Do you mean that if my WVO titrates 1 the pH of my oil is 1 and if it titrates 12 the pH of my oil is 12?
    Quote Originally Posted by Threegees View Post
    Hi all,
    ...You test the ph of your raw oil in your Titration...

  4. #14
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    Re: Small quantities of Bio-Diesel available, Brisbane southside.

    Only an aqueous solution can have a PH. Biodiesel is insoluble in water. Bio can't have a PH.
    What you can measure is the PH of any water present in the BIO.

  5. #15
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    Re: Small quantities of Bio-Diesel available, Brisbane southside.

    Hi 250downunder,
    That is the problem with making assumptions.
    You assumed Gregg meant he was checking the pH of his wash water. I bet that considering Gregg is a commercial producer, you even thought he was using an electronic pH meter to do these pH checks. However, what he really meant is that he is dipping litmus paper into the biodiesel.
    I was a bit surprised with the litmus paper. However, seeing as it is a meaningless test anyway, he might as well use litmus paper and save his money.

  6. #16
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    Re: Small quantities of Bio-Diesel available, Brisbane southside.

    As a point of interest, is commercially produced Biodiel subject to excise?

  7. #17
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    Re: Small quantities of Bio-Diesel available, Brisbane southside.

    This thread has jumped waaaaayyy of topic. as a side note - pH can be measured in non-aqeuos solutions, but it has a different formula for calculation of the value and the a different scale. one cannot simply use the same measurement equipment to compare aqeuos and non-aqueos solutions. A quick read of Wiki will sort it out. The maths is way beyond my meagre abilities to allow me to provide any further explanation.

    As all the nasty bits in the bio are water soluable, but the bio is not, so getting a wash water that measures 7 on a pH scale would generally suggest that only methyl esters remain? (in any significant portion anyway) - assuming it passes the 3/27 test (which I think is a bit arbitrary anyway). Is that a reasonable assumption?

    Also, without wanting to make anything harder for a our bretheren and alerting any big brothers out there, I dont think any of us would sell our experimental fuel??? isnt it only for personal experiments??

    Surely if we were to sell it, excise would definetly be payable.

    brains trust - I am waiting for the comments to flow.....
    Regards,

    Cade.

    2002 100 series Landcruiser
    240,000 Km and counting on B100, 330,000km total on car.
    Naturally aspirated, Walbro Pusher pump just upstream of tank switch valves, Cav filter with reversed fuel flow direction.
    At 160,000 km Rebuilt pump, Reconditioned head and manifolds, glow plugs. Injectors all good after 160,000 km on B100.

  8. #18
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    Re: Small quantities of Bio-Diesel available, Brisbane southside.

    Hi Cade,
    Quote Originally Posted by Captaincademan View Post
    This thread has jumped waaaaayyy of topic.
    I am not sure it is all that much off topic. We are discussing the testing procedure used to determine the quality of the biodiesel under discussion and whether the test procedure is valid.
    Hopefully some misconceptions are being sorted out. Information is flowing and quite frequently these types of discussions result in a greater overall understanding for everyone,

    as a side note - pH can be measured in non-aqeuos solutions, but it has a different formula for calculation of the value and the a different scale. one cannot simply use the same measurement equipment to compare aqeuos and non-aqueos solutions. A quick read of Wiki will sort it out.
    A quick read of the wiki article did not sort it out for me, but your statement that "one cannot simply use the same measurement equipment to compare aqeuos and non-aqueos solutions." is probably a "punch line" in this discussion. Electronic pH meters and Litmus paper are most likely designed to check the pH of aqueous materials, not oils.

    As all the nasty bits in the bio are water soluable, but the bio is not, so getting a wash water that measures 7 on a pH scale would generally suggest that only methyl esters remain? (in any significant portion anyway)- assuming it passes the 3/27 test (which I think is a bit arbitrary anyway). Is that a reasonable assumption?
    Assumptions are bad things to make. {See the above posts} All the "nasty bits" may not necessarily be water soluble, I do not know.. Just off the top of my head I wonder about FFA's, monoglycerides and calcium soaps and whether they are water soluable and detected in the 3/27 test.
    Also, the wash water is not necessarily pH 7 to start with. It often contains a "contaminate"
    I have been informed that it does not take much "contaminate" to make a fairly big change in the pH of water. Apple juice has a pH of 3.
    My pH meter died over 10 years ago. Curious what adding 1g of KOH to a litre of water does to it's pH (titrating fluid).

    Also, without wanting to make anything harder for a our bretheren and alerting any big brothers out there, I dont think any of us would sell our experimental fuel??? isnt it only for personal experiments?
    Yes, it is my understanding that the moneys talked about in this thread are for labour and various overheads.

  9. #19
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    Re: Small quantities of Bio-Diesel available, Brisbane southside.

    I thought the thread was about the fact that Threegees wanted to offload some extra bio he had
    Regards,

    Cade.

    2002 100 series Landcruiser
    240,000 Km and counting on B100, 330,000km total on car.
    Naturally aspirated, Walbro Pusher pump just upstream of tank switch valves, Cav filter with reversed fuel flow direction.
    At 160,000 km Rebuilt pump, Reconditioned head and manifolds, glow plugs. Injectors all good after 160,000 km on B100.

  10. #20
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    Re: Small quantities of Bio-Diesel available, Brisbane southside.

    Hi Cade,
    Indeed, you are correct.
    If no further discussion is wanted then I am sure the "powers that be" will delete every post in this thread after the original post and this forum can get on with more important matters.


    Quote Originally Posted by Captaincademan View Post
    I thought the thread was about the fact that Threegees wanted to offload some extra bio he had
    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 28th May 2013 at 07:12 PM.

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