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Thread: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

  1. #11
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    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    Quote Originally Posted by yoda2026 View Post
    actually peter no i understand the theory behind all this i have no intention of going very deep into this but if you want more information i suggest you start with something along the lines of cengel and boles thermodynamics textbook and once you have gone through that i can steer you into quite a few combustion textbooks
    It's the experience of many forum members that
    Quote Originally Posted by yoda2026
    adding ulp to diesel lowers the cetane rating making it harder to ignite under compression
    is not correct for our application with WVO.

    We find that adding ULP provides all round benefits to veggie oil. The thermodynamics theories you refer to may be correct regarding diesel fuel, but it's our practical experience that it does not apply the same way to WVO. It is a common mistake to translate properties related to diesel to biodiesel to WVO, regarding all sort of things; pumps, valves etc that are listed as working for diesel do not necessarily translate to WVO applications. Same thing could well be the case for ULP blends in WVO - it works for us.

    We want the WVO to ignite quicker. ULP does this.

    According to wikipedia:
    "Cetane number or CN is a measure of a fuel's ignition delay, the time period between the start of injection and the first identifiable pressure increase during combustion of the fuel. In a particular diesel engine, higher cetane fuels will have shorter ignition delay periods than lower cetane fuels."

    Tim
    Last edited by Tim-HJ61; 20th November 2013 at 10:54 AM. Reason: clarification
    Toyota Landcruiser 1988 HJ61 Manual Wagon
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  2. #12
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    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony From West Oz View Post
    I don't think that ULP in a common rail system will be terminal in a blend with veggie oil. I believe that it would depend on the blend ratio & the resultant lubricity of the blend.

    Regards,
    Tony
    Yes your correct and I agree. What I meant I guess is a large percentage of ulp such as accidentally filling a common rail diesel with ulp would be terminal and expensive whereas the same mistake (with mechanical injection) would be noticeable and easily reversible. I personally wouldn't go down the wvo route if I had a common rail. I would do biodiesel - but that's just my opinion and another topic altogether

  3. #13
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    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    I believe some here blend in stale petrol sourced from 2 stroke mower repair shops etc. Is stale better than fresh ULP or is it no different?
    Johnnojack
    4WD Isuzu Jackaroo 3.1 170,000km on WVO,(2017) 2 tank home built system 6 solenoids. Mk. 9 version. Improvements under investigation

  4. #14
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    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    I use stale petrol (with some 2 stroke mixed in as well) from the bike shop as my blending fuel.
    Why Stale petrol?
    Because it is a waste product which costs the shop $ to dispose of.
    Because I get it for free.
    This is a win:win solution for them and me.
    I also believe that it has lost most of the volatiles which contribute to vapour lock, which has been reported by some blending with new ULP.

    Regards,
    Tony
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    Toyota Camry Hybrid - (Wife's Car)

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 All body panels, headlights, interior engine and ECU available.


    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
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  5. #15
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    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    Discussions like this always intrigue me, especially all the technical claims, compared to the experience. Over the years have experimented with ULP, BD and diesel blends of up to 25% during winter, to see the results in actual practice. We are lucky in a way as we have 3 vehicles of the same make and model running VO, 2x12ht and 1x 2h land cruisers, along with various other machinery engines, boat and generators.

    Our best results come from 10% BD, next was 10% dino and a long last with many associated problems for our climate, ULP. ULP, is not designed for use in a diesel engine, however you can put 25% in without instant problems. Years ago when experimenting, was able to meet and discuss this with engineers from the Antarctic division as they used ULP in the engines and had to change them over ever 2 seasons after running 24/7 for at least 2 years. They convinced me the long term damage caused by ULP , isn't observable until they are about to stop. The UlP scoured fuel system, diluted any form of lubrication in the diesel and when sulphur was removed, they had to replace some IP's, injectors, piston rings and fuel pumps within 6 months. Since changing their system and removing ULP, their engines are lasting 5-7 years without need of major overhaul. Don't know what they did, but it must have worked, the comment I got was, much better storage and pumping facilities and 2 stroke additive, as a fuel system lubricant.

    Of course we use VO, so have no real problems with lubrication, but during the time I used ULP, had nothing but trouble and since switching to BD or dino as a winter blend, not even blocked filters which seem the norm with ULP, for some reason.

    Why do people use ULP, which is incompatible with diesel technology, when using either BD or dino, doesn't the same job using compatible fuels. A practical answer to that would be appreciated and not the technical spin jargon, which has no practical experience backing.

  6. #16
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    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    Quote Originally Posted by Alga View Post
    Years ago when experimenting, was able to meet and discuss this with engineers from the Antarctic division as they used ULP in the engines and had to change them over ever 2 seasons after running 24/7 for at least 2 years.
    I am not clear what you mean here. Do you mean they were using ULP in diesel engines?
    If that was the case, what percentage was ULP? What was the fuel it was mixed with, Number 1 or number 2 diesel?

  7. #17
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    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    Quote Originally Posted by barton View Post
    I am not clear what you mean here. Do you mean they were using ULP in diesel engines?
    If that was the case, what percentage was ULP? What was the fuel it was mixed with, Number 1 or number 2 diesel?
    Not sure, it was years ago, probably 2, as it's a winter fuel. As stated in my post, they used up to 25% ULP, to stop it gelling. Things have changed a great deal since then and generator rooms and storage tanks etc have stable temperatures, well above freezing point. They did say it was something they really wouldn't recommend for getting a long life out of your engine.

    To my mind any more than 10% would be asking for trouble over the long term, then again the experts may disagree. All I go on is personal experience over the last 30 years or so, and learning from others experiences, especially in very low temperature area's, like the snowy mountains. For some reason prefer living in cold climates, so have learnt what works best and gives us the best reliability and life time. Our 2h land cruiser is approaching 600000 klms, more than 300000 on VO and 10% BD or dino in winter. Been meaning to rebuilt it for the last few years, but as it still goes and pulls really well, other than down a bit of power, it will continue until it virtually dies. The di triton ute we had and experimented with ULP, had an engine rebuild and nothing but problems, costing us a fortune. So got rid of all our di engines and went back to in line IP's, A mate is currently fitting a 12ht engine into a 91 cruiser, once it set up properly, will probably do the same. Series 80's are cheap and their engine seem to pack up quickly to earlier engines, then you have all the computing and special servicing which costs the earth. I can get one with a blown engine for less than $3000. My only concern, is whether the 12ht can handle the constant 4x4, just have to wait and see.
    Last edited by Alga; 22nd November 2013 at 02:59 PM.

  8. #18
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    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    Quote Originally Posted by Alga View Post
    Not sure, it was years ago, probably 2, as it's a winter fuel.
    If it was winter diesel it would have been number 1 diesel which is kerosene

    As stated in my post, they used up to 25% ULP, to stop it gelling.
    Not wanting to be considered pedantic, but in your OP you said it was you who had used up to 25% ULP. You did not specify what the percentage was in the ant arctic, that is why I asked.


    The UlP scoured fuel system, diluted any form of lubrication in the diesel and when sulphur was removed, they had to replace some IP's, injectors, piston rings and fuel pumps within 6 months.
    If you are adding 25% ULP to kersoene you can expect to have trouble. Back then there was no lubricity requirement in the Diesel Fuel specification
    Then, if you add to that the problems which resulted with the change over to low sulfur kerosene.

    But we are not mixing ULP with kerosene, so that is not a valid comparrison
    Last edited by barton; 22nd November 2013 at 04:11 PM. Reason: Making things clearer

  9. #19
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    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    Quote Originally Posted by barton View Post
    If it was winter diesel it would have been number 1 diesel which is kerosene

    Not wanting to be considered pedantic, but in your OP you said it was you who had used up to 25% ULP. You did not specify what the percentage was in the ant arctic, that is why I asked.


    If you are adding 25% ULP to kersoene you can expect to have trouble. Back then there was no lubricity requirement in the Diesel Fuel specification
    Then, if you add to that the problems which resulted with the change over to low sulfur kerosene.

    But we are not mixing ULP with kerosene, so that is not a valid comparrison
    Read my post and understand what was said, this is what I posted. “however you can put 25% in without instant problems”. No where does it say I claimed to have used 25%, 15% may have been the most as knocking and hunting became very evident. It was the antarctic blokes who stated 25% could be used, which was verified with research. They never said how much they used, as I didn't ask.

    The validity of my comments are in using ULP instead of diesel in VO, when there is no difference in performance and you can add any amount of diesel to your fuel, if needed. Diesel BD VO, all compatible fuels. ULP is not compatible with any of them in regard to how they are used, type of engine and firing mechanism. Diesel, BD. VO all have similar flash points, ULP is vey different. It was used as a thinner when needed and that's why people have this idea it's cool, to run ULP through your diesel engine. In my opinion, it's not logical or rational, even though the science may claim otherwise. To my mind, it's adding an abrasive to your fuel system, which may be fine once or twice. But we are talking about adding it to VO constantly, if you think that's fine, go for it. What I write is only my opinion, many others have different ones, I respect that and learn from them. It develops an overall understanding, so you can then implement the best approach which suits your circumstances.

    I prefer simple, logical and easily workable approaches, cheap, easily fixed and won't cause to many problems. This allows us to only buy start fuel when travelling and we run out of BD, or winter in Tas or the snowies, where we sometimes have to thin both the VO and BD because of temperatures. Dino does that excellently and to any percentage you need, without a problem. As we carry 120lt of start fuel, it's rare we buy dino. Others prefer different ways which suit them and their situation. If you prefer blending ULP with VO rather than dino, go for it, experience is the best way to learn.
    Last edited by Alga; 22nd November 2013 at 07:39 PM.

  10. #20
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    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    Quote Originally Posted by Alga View Post
    Read my post and understand what was said, this is what I posted. “however you can put 25% in without instant problems”. No where does it say I claimed to have used 25%,...
    In your first paragraph you said "Over the years have experimented with ULP, BD and diesel blends of up to 25% during winter, to see the results in actual practice."
    I took that to mean that you had mixed up to 25% ULP, BD and diesel into your VO. Apparently you meant something else.

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