Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 42

Thread: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    lyndoch south australia
    Posts
    326

    SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    I understand all the purists of SOV but is there any reason why you would not use a light blend, lets just say 5% ULP, and perhaps solve any problems with viscosity, heating,etc. Still think of it as SOV and treat it as such, but would this make it a more user friendly fuel.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    931

    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    Quote Originally Posted by dagwill View Post
    I understand all the purists of SOV but is there any reason why you would not use a light blend, lets just say 5% ULP, and perhaps solve any problems with viscosity, heating,etc. Still think of it as SOV and treat it as such, but would this make it a more user friendly fuel.
    Given you're asking for 'any' reason..... It breaches tax laws to blend an excisable fuel and a non excisable fuel. ULP is excisable (subject to fuel tax), veggie oil is non excisable. I've never heard of anyone being done for such blending of Veggie oil and ULP, or anything, in Australia.

    If blending was done very poorly, a slug of a rich mix of ULP might end up in your injection pump.... maybe....

    Quote Originally Posted by dagwill View Post
    would this make it a more user friendly fuel
    I agree. Adding a bit of ULP also changes the oxidative characteristics of veggie oil, as in it makes it more stable and less likely to oxidise.

    Go for it Dagwill.

    Tim

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    829

    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    Quote Originally Posted by peter1 View Post
    Yes. there are many benefits to the addition of 5% Ulp.

    2 weeks ago I set up some tests as a point of interest expressed on another forum.
    I was able to measure the power output of an engine extremely accurately under load and 5% ULP gave a definite and unmistakable increase in power and also resulted in better burning of SVO.

    If you are interested in my results and experience with blending send me a PM with your email addy.
    The only thing to watch for is to use non-ethanol ULP. I remember some of the guys on here did some testing a while ago and showed that there were lacquers and others nasties that seemed to drop out when using ethanol based ULP.

    Craig
    Holden Suburban K2500 1998 6.5L Turbo GM engine
    210,000KMs (90,000 on new crate motor)

    Currently 2 tanks in and working - 90 litre BIO tank and main tank of 160L WVO

    30 plate FPHE in Engine bay and Helton Dual coil in rear
    Walbro FRB-5 pusher pumps x 2

    50,000KM on Veg and 10,000Km on B100

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    eastern suburbs sydney
    Posts
    8

    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    when blending these things keep in mind that ulp has an octane rating and diesel/oil has a cetane rating and that they are inversely proportional to each other
    meaning adding ulp to diesel lowers the cetane rating making it harder to ignite undercompression
    also adding diesel to petrol lowers the octane rating making more likely to ping or knock

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dubbo
    Posts
    188

    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    Blending is most definitely interesting me more lately.
    Despite the strange cetane and ron post the consensus I think don't have issue with ulp blending.
    I can share one interesting adventure a cousin had in recent years. He filled up his 2.8l hilux diesel with ulp and drove for hours without realising. Now obviously it wasn't 100% ulp but it it was way more than what Toyota recommends ha ha.
    This motor would have been idi and a mechanical IP. It just goes to show what some diesel engines can cope with.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,179

    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    While I agree with the above posts, I wish to clarify that diesel engines will not run on a high percentage of petrol. My Nissan Urvan (25 years ago) was low on fuel and I poured a jerry can of what I thought was diesel (actually ULP) into the tank. After 20 km, the engine lost power, had a big cloud of white smoke coming out the exhaust and it rolled to a halt.

    After towing the Urvan home, adding diesel and pumping it thru with the primer pump, the Urvan started and ran on what would have been about 25% ULP, 75% diesel. It had no ill effects from the mis-fueling, once the correct fuel was used.
    I do not know what impact this would have had if it were a common rail engine, as the high pressure pump on those is particularly sensitive to fuel quality (especially lubrication characteristics)
    Regards,
    Tony
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP)


    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 SOLD.
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).


    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    lyndoch south australia
    Posts
    326

    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    peter1 a very clear and good explanation

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dubbo
    Posts
    188

    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    Obviously common rail is another thing altogether. Ulp in that fuel system will be terminal.
    Agreed a high percentage of ulp well be noticeable, runs like a dog though I'm surprised it stopped altogether. Sounds to me like tbird's famous issue. I'm willing to bet (never test) that you could run an old diesel engine on high amounts of ulp with a cold ambient temperature. But anyway, the point is even higher amounts of ulp (be it by accident) won't generally spell disaster.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,179

    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    Quote Originally Posted by cuppatea View Post
    Obviously common rail is another thing altogether. Ulp in that fuel system will be terminal.
    SNIP.
    I don't think that ULP in a common rail system will be terminal in a blend with veggie oil. I believe that it would depend on the blend ratio & the resultant lubricity of the blend.

    Regards,
    Tony
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP)


    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 SOLD.
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).


    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    eastern suburbs sydney
    Posts
    8

    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    actually peter no i understand the theory behind all this i have no intention of going very deep into this but if you want more information i suggest you start with something along the lines of cengel and boles thermodynamics textbook and once you have gone through that i can steer you into quite a few combustion textbooks



    Quote Originally Posted by peter1 View Post
    You read this Rubbish somewhere else right and just repeated it here without actually understanding why such a theory is flawed.

    I don't know who dreams this stuff up but it sure gets repeated and misleads a LOT of people.
    If you are interested it, you would learn a lot if you looked into the various aspects as this applies to Petrol and Diesel engines and a 3rd consideration as to how it applies to Veg oil use.

    I have explained the reasons why this isn't true in more places than I can remember but still the old flawed theory just keeps going on.

    Here is a quick heads up:

    "The auto-ignition temperatures for the oils were determined to be as follows: canola oil: 424Ԩ, vegetable oil: 406 Ԩ and olive oil: 435Ԩ."


    Gasoline, Petrol 280


    "The compression ratio in a gasoline or petrol-powered engine will usually not be much higher than 10:1 due to potential engine knocking"

    "There is no electrical sparking plug in an auto-ignition diesel engine; the heat of compression raises the temperature of the mixture to its auto-ignition point. The CR will customarily exceed 14:1 and ratios over 22:1 are common. The appropriate compression ratio depends on the design of the cylinder head. The figure is usually between 14:1 and 16:1 for direct injection engines, and between 18:1 and 23:1 for indirect injection engines."


    SO, the facts are that Petrol has both a lower auto ignition temp and a lower max compression ratio than diesel and moreso, Veg oil.

    Someone please explain to me with proven fact and physics how then spraying an amount of Petrol mixed with veg oil into an atmosphere ( inside a Cylinder) that has a highly elevated temperature due to compression ratios that far exceed the knock resistance ( auto Ign temp) of petrol, are going to make that mixture harder to ignite?

    Furthermore, try starting a diesel on SVO on a cold day. Often, you can't. Add a small amount of petrol to the intake of the engine ( therefore eliminating any benefit potential of thinning the SVO and the thing will fire very readily. IF petrol was harder to ignite then this could obviously not happen.

    Simple science and easily demonstrated practical application that makes the idea of adding petrol to Veg oil makes it harder to ignite a load of BS.
    Seriously, who comes up with this misinformation and why do people keep repeating it??
    It's complete and utter poppycock and total Bunk.


    Best people do their own research if they want to know what's right and what is just more internet BS.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •