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Thread: Interested in Blending

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Forster NSW
    Posts
    78

    Interested in Blending

    Hi all well I have been a long time user of SVO but after speaking to Tony in WA I am considering doing a 10% blend ULP or is this too much my problem is I am unable to get stale fuel and was going to make a 200 litre batch can I use new fuel, mix it with the oil and how long do I need to let it settle or do I buy new fuel and wait a few months before I make a blend also do i need to stir it up now and then or do I just leave it for a couple of months I am not going to use it as my main fuel at this stage but try it out as my start up fuel before switching to svo over the summer months
    I am going to use this blend in my GQ 4.2 turbo patrol to start with before I try it in the motorhome any input would be great
    Thanks Kevin Limoman

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    931

    Re: Interested in Blendig

    Hi Kevin,

    The forum members have been talking about some aspects of your question recently.
    http://www.biofuelsforum.com/threads...ot-blend-5-ULP
    It got a bit fraught and draining, but is worth a read for the options available.

    We use ULP as a final rinse for performance turbos in a workshop, and have made up a couple of tanks with lids on to keep the stench out of the workshop. It's overpowering for a few days, but after a week the more volatile components seem to have vapoured away. It's not months, much less than that.

    I think leaving the lid off your drum of ULP for a week or so would be adequate to create the stale ULP you are seeking. And the only reason to do this is to allow the highly volatile components to escape and not potentially cause problems in hot weather by vaporising inside your fuel lines causing vapour locks. This may or may not be a problem, but that's the idea behind using 'stale' ULP. The idea of using ULP is because is thins SVO very effectively. You can read the other thread on the variety of opinions about this. There are other options to use as well, such as biodiesel, but you'll need more of them in the blend to achieve the same viscosity.

    I've had a sample bottle of my blend sitting on my workbench for a couple of months and not noticed any separation. If I recall correctly, ULP with ethanol will react differently in a WVO blend than ULP without ethanol. Others who are more experienced in this might chime in with some clarification.

    Tim
    Toyota Landcruiser 1988 HJ61 Manual Wagon
    12H-T turbo Direct Injection.
    Twin Tank setup runs on 100% WVO after warm up. 30 plate FPHE with 80C output, 12mm fuel lines
    Start up and shut down electric fuel pump feeds IP direct.
    Front 4WDSytstems Lokka, Rear ARB airlokka for quick escapes up sandhills. Performance GTurbo with 600mm FMIC gives 450nm @ 1700rpm at 20psi boost.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,188

    Re: Interested in Blendig

    Last weekend, I trialled a 20% stale ULP:WVO blend in my C250Turbodiesel.
    I found that fuel consumption increased significantly. As I did not take mileages and fill the tank to the brim, I cannot quantify the extent of the increase in fuel consumption, but from the fuel gauge dropping and the distance covered, it would seem that the fuel consumption increased by over 20%, compared with my usual 10% blend of stale ULP and WVO.

    Regards,
    Tony

    Has anyone else had a similar experience?
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP)


    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 SOLD.
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).


    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dubbo
    Posts
    188

    Re: Interested in Blending

    Hopefully this thread runs it's course better as well. I must say after reading Alga's posts it did raise a smidge of concern in my mind (some aspects anyway).

    Anyway, Tony why were you keen to increase the ULP content? Is 10% ULP not close enough viscosity to Diesel at your temps? (I don't know - haven't tried or tested blending seriously yet).

    Which brings me to something I was meaning to ask for a long time here: has anyone actually gathered data and/or tabulated relationship between ambient temps, fuel before IP temps Vs fuel viscosity? I really wonder why a blender wouldn't have it as easy as looking up the weather forecast and then realising that they will need to run a blend between this or that % of ULP/Diesel/Bio or whatever. Depending on how pedantic the blender is of course as obviously Diesel has a range of viscosity that our motors are happy with - same for veg oil to stay within these limits. Have I confused anyone? Am I way over simplifying?

    I think I probably have already realised the answer to my question to Tony. At very low ambient temps with the current fuel heating setup 10% ULP probably isn't enough then?
    Last edited by cuppatea; 28th November 2013 at 09:43 AM. Reason: Expanded a bit

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    300

    Re: Interested in Blending

    Quote Originally Posted by cuppatea View Post
    Hopefully this thread runs it's course better as well. I must say after reading Alga's posts it did raise a smidge of concern in my mind (some aspects anyway).
    You would do well to research the basis of any opinions given in areas outside the veg world to see if they have any real and factual basis or are just impressions people have which are not supported in fact or experience anywhere else.


    Anyway, Tony why were you keen to increase the ULP content? Is 10% ULP not close enough viscosity to Diesel at your temps? (I don't know - haven't tried or tested blending seriously yet).
    Heated SVO is a long way off the viscosity of diesel as well. I would suggest that the primary goal is not to actually worry about getting the viscosity the same as diesel but rather to get it within the range of tolerance of the IP you are using. Pretty much every pump I have looked up has a published Viscosity range they can handle and for mechanical pumps at least, it's pretty wide.


    Which brings me to something I was meaning to ask for a long time here: has anyone actually gathered data and/or tabulated relationship between ambient temps, fuel before IP temps Vs fuel viscosity?
    Someone I know did temp viscosity tests on SVO on the proper equipment and had the numbers. Was very interesting data. I don't have it now.


    I really wonder why a blender wouldn't have it as easy as looking up the weather forecast and then realising that they will need to run a blend between this or that % of ULP/Diesel/Bio or whatever. Depending on how pedantic the blender is of course as obviously Diesel has a range of viscosity that our motors are happy with - same for veg oil to stay within these limits. Have I confused anyone? Am I way over simplifying?
    That's pretty much what I have been doing for years.
    Start off with a base summer or winter blend and go from there. If the day is hot and I'm going somewhere and know I'll need more fuel, I might just throw in straight oil. If I know the next few days will be cooler, I'll blend. Sometimes you have a hot blend in and the weather turns cold but it's never been a big deal. Never had any problems starting on SVO even in winter so it does not really matter.

    I think I probably have already realised the answer to my question to Tony. At very low ambient temps with the current fuel heating setup 10% ULP probably isn't enough then?
    There is no "one size suits all solution. Very low ambient temps are a matter of opinion. The amount of blend required will depend on the temp, your engine and IP, the condition thereof, the blending agent you are using and maybe other factors.
    10% ULP is more than enough to give me easy starts at 0o in my present Vehicle. It was not enough on others I have had.

    This is one of those things where you actually have to have a pair and take a calculated risk and do some testing for yourself. Many people are too paranoid to do that but if they are looking for a guarantee in what will work, they should forget about veg fuels and go buy a toaster and keep their receipt.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    300

    Re: Interested in Blendig

    Quote Originally Posted by limoman View Post
    I am considering doing a 10% blend ULP or is this too much
    I have run 4.2 Gq's for the last 5 years. Some will argue but I believe that gives me some relevant experience and knowledge with these Vehicles.
    If your engine is in good condition and not clapped out, ( that would be under 750,000KM on ours) In your climate 5% will be plenty to give you good starts at this time of the year.
    There are a couple of things you have to watch for however. PM me if you are interested in my opinion, I won't share it here in order to avoid potential disharmony with those that may disagree.

    I run 10% in winter which should be plenty for you as well. It's not as cold there in winter as the locals used to the sunshine actually make out.

    You do NOT need to run stale Petrol and I don't care who disagrees with that. It's simply not a requirement, serves any practical purpose or has any benefit to the engine.

    I think leaving petrol in the open or trying to evaporate off lighter fractions is both Ridiculously wasteful as you are going to loose so much and is a sin against the environment which some people are concerned with. They don't go to the trouble they do to stop fuel evaporating out of car fuel tanks and putting devises on them to condense the vapours back to the tank of have emissions requirements for the fun of it.
    There could be nothing worse that allowing raw petrol vapours to escape to the atmosphere and I hope those that do it recieve a visit from the appropriate authorities. [Mod edit: Text removed. Unnecessary needling, off topic]

    I highly suggest you filter and prepare your fuel BEFORE you blend it. Using petrol as a settling agent is again wasteful, polluting and increases the cost of the fuel needlessly. The idea that is thrown up around the net of petrol and oil separation is another prime and demonstrable example of some of the idiotic misinformation that goes around. I will personally pay anyone that can do this $1000 to demonstrate it in the context of our use and application. You may as well try and seperate cordial and water.
    Give it an initial mix ( and you are not trying to mix oil and water to an emulsion so it doesn't take much) and that's it.

    As I usually blend on the fly rather than make up pre mixed batches for the reasons above of mixing to suit the conditions. I used to mix in small drums before adding to the tank. I don't even bother with that these days. I add the petrol which goes into the tank with whatever other fuel is there. It's diluted and mixed right from that point. I then add all the oil which will then intersect the petrol as it enters the tank and stir it up some more. There is plenty of agitation in the tank from just adding the fuel, I have had the cover off the tank and seen it myself but have not documented it so you can take my word for it or not.
    I then start the engine and by the time I get out the driveway and into 3rd gear, there is more than enough agitation to eliminate any of the "slugs" of raw petrol I have seen people talk about even if it was possible for them to still be there after the initial fill. Playing devils advocate, even it it were possible for raw ULP to get to the pickup in the tank, it's still going to be introduced and mixed with what is in the fuel filter so at worst possible scenario you may get a slightly ULP rich blend for a very short time. There is no way that raw ULP can just sit at the pickpoint in the tank.

    If you want to pre blend and give it a shake before putting it in the tank, not going to hurt anything bar make your arm tired maybe so all good. Just trying to point out another load of poppycock that I have seen commonly thrown up on this topic on various forums.

    As for doing 200L batches, If your fuel is clean and properly prepared, what's going to drop out? If you do get anything then I would say your fuel prep needs to be better because if it will drop out in you 200L tank, it will drop out in your vehicle tank or block the filter prematurely.
    Last edited by Tim-HJ61; 28th November 2013 at 07:41 PM. Reason: Mod edit, removed unnecessary needling, off topic

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,188

    Re: Interested in Blending

    Quote Originally Posted by cuppatea View Post
    Snip
    Anyway, Tony why were you keen to increase the ULP content? Is 10% ULP not close enough viscosity to Diesel at your temps? (I don't know - haven't tried or tested blending seriously yet).

    Which brings me to something I was meaning to ask for a long time here: has anyone actually gathered data and/or tabulated relationship between ambient temps, fuel before IP temps Vs fuel viscosity? I really wonder why a blender wouldn't have it as easy as looking up the weather forecast and then realising that they will need to run a blend between this or that % of ULP/Diesel/Bio or whatever. Depending on how pedantic the blender is of course as obviously Diesel has a range of viscosity that our motors are happy with - same for veg oil to stay within these limits. Have I confused anyone? Am I way over simplifying?

    I think I probably have already realised the answer to my question to Tony. At very low ambient temps with the current fuel heating setup 10% ULP probably isn't enough then?
    With my C250D, the engine starts reliably on the 10% blend at any time of year.
    It has a 'saddle' configuration fuel tank (half the tank on each side of the drive shaft & exhaust), which uses a venturi on the return line to suck fuel from the drivers' side of the tank, to the passenger's side of the tank, from which the fuel is delivered to the engine.
    When using SVO, the engine sucks air when the tank is at about 1/3 full. With 10% ULP blend, the air occurs at 1/4 tank. I was trying out the 20% blend to see what impact the additional ULP had on the venturi performance.
    Unfortunately, as I was on a country trip, I would not have had insufficient fuel to get home on the 20% blend (due to the higher fuel consumption) had I tried to go to less than 1/4 tank, so I topped off the tank with petroleum diesel and ended the experiment early.

    I would love to perform viscosity Vs Blend testing for a variety of blending fuels (ULP, Diesel, Kero, etc) but, up until now I had been working for a living (now I work without being paid - and I can't go to 'work' on Monday to rest my body, while my brain works for the company). It may be a project for the future though.

    Regards,
    Tony
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP)


    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 SOLD.
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).


    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    whyalla sth. aust
    Posts
    224

    Re: Interested in Blending

    I did some crude viscosity tests using winter diesel and bio made from oleo lard, I do not know if it has any relevance or comparative value to SVO but I have the data here in front of me so I will put it forward for interest sake. My original goal here was to see how much ULP it would take to match the viscosity of winter diesel.

    A 10ml pump pipette was used which has the lever release tests performed 24/4/2010 at 20C
    all tests were 10ml of fluid each

    • diesel only three test 28 sec. 29 sec. 27 sec.
    • bio 34 sec for all 3 tests.
    • 3 parts ULP to 10 parts bio to give three tests of 26 sec 27 sec 27 sec


    it turned out far too much ulp to use to match diesel viscosity, it was intended for the possibility to make fuel for high pressure piezo injectors
    Last edited by Tim-HJ61; 28th November 2013 at 11:29 PM. Reason: Mod edit for Layout - no text changed

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dubbo
    Posts
    188

    Re: Interested in Blending

    Thanks for sharing that Gilfish.
    It would be great to bring this hobby for the most part out of the era of guessing, trial and error, opinion and fud - into the 21st century with some real data.
    You never know this data may be verifiable by a few of us and make it to a sticky post.
    As Peter1 said there is specifications for injector pumps (or even injectors) for viscosity and maybe even fuel temperature range. If anyone has this info for their IP please share.
    With this detailed, concrete specification it can be used as a guideline for experiments with blending and heating. These specs can be taken as absolute or users can decide for themselves how far "out of spec" they want to push their luck. We can also decide how much heat or how much blending is needed to get within spec. Or, if your one to not care about being in spec at all then - do whatever you please, it's your car.
    With all that data formatted we can either use this directly or test your own oil against the baseline, making adjustment as required. The engine would require a fuel temp sensor before the IP (if a HE is used especially) to accurately know what the fuel temp is. Ambient temp is not good enough until the user strike correlation (roughly) between ambient temps and their fuel temps.
    And yes this won't be something that can be accomplished on a Sunday night after dinner, it will take time and effort.
    Cheers.
    Last edited by cuppatea; 2nd December 2013 at 07:34 AM.

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