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Thread: Blending issues

  1. #11
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    Re: Blending issues

    Its also it's also got an anti-bug biocide in it, along with a host of other bits designed to improve efficiency, burn and storage. Very prone to soluable water. Lots get thrown out every day at every fuel farm at every airport as tankers need to be tested for suspended and coalesced water at the start of each day. If you can get hold of the discarded test fuel, now that is a good source.





    Quote Originally Posted by peter1 View Post
    Having bought Jet A1 from the local airport on numerous occasions, I don't think they are the same end product although domestic kero may be the base stock for the Jet.
    The stuff I know to be Jet fuel is very different stuff to the kero you get in bottles. The most noticeable thing is the additives of jet fuel, which I believe to be mainly anti freeze, that is left on funnels and anything you spill the jet onto. It leaves a substantial powdery deposit when it dries and it tends to burn the skin if left in contact. I know the guys at the fuel depot at the airport don't like filling the drums for this reason.
    Avgas they don't care about, when you ask for Jet they start donning the PPE like they are filming a safety instruction Video.

    They may pull the domestic kero off the line before they add the jet additives which would be logical but it's certainly not as far as I can see anything like the same end product.

    I have priced Kero from Chemical Companies and even managed to find a servo still selling it but they wanted about $1 a litre more than I could get the Avgas for last time I checked. Since then I just go to the airport with the metal jerry cans they insist on and tell them it's for parts washing. They won't sell it to you if you say you are going to use it in a vehicle due to not being taxed.

    I remember when I was a kid that kero was everywhere. The only reason a servo wouldn't have it at the pump was if they had ran out and were waiting on more. I used to go with my grandfather to buy it in all sorts of drums and funny styled but purpose made containers. He had pressure stoves, blow lamps, heaters and even a fridge at the onsite Caravan at Kiama that ran on it.
    He had this Home remedy concoction he used to make up which consisted of Kero, Cleaned lard and I think Epsom salts. It ended up like a paste he used to Bottle as a topical ointment for everything from cracked heals to the black Plague.

    It must have done some thing, I remember many Neighbours and friends constantly coming and asking if he had any to spare and bring contributions of lard for the next batch. My grandmother would keep a close eye on stocks and put away a good supply of her own as running out of it was something she didn't want to contemplate. The kero smell was very strong and once he added some scent to it but all the oldies reckoned it wasn't as good without the kero smell.

    He'd have had a heart attack and died if he hadn't already if he saw kero at the supermarket for upwards of $5 a litre.
    Probably didn't pay that much for a boot full of it when I went with him to get it.
    Regards,

    Cade.

    2006 Landcruiser HDJ100 (1HD-FTE) 20,000 on bio
    2006 Ford Courier(WLT Motor), 10,000 on bio
    2002 Landcruiser HZJ105r (1HZ motor) 250,000 on bio (sold)
    2006 Mazda B2500 (WLT motor) 80,000 on bio (sold)



  2. #12
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    Re: Blending issues

    IOC JET A –1:

    IOC JET A-1 is a petroleum distillate blended from kerosene fractions having Aromatics
    below 20 % v/v, Total sulphur below 0.25 % mass, Mercaptan Sulphur below 0.002 %
    mass, freezing point below - 47C and a flash point above 38 C.
    It contains Static Dissipator additive STADIS 450

    https://www.iocl.com/Products/ATFSpecifications.pdf

    Having bought Jet A1 from the local airport on numerous occasions, I don't think they are the same end product although domestic kero may be the base stock for the Jet.
    No, they are not necessairly the same end product.

    Certainly additives might be included or left out depending on what it's end use is.
    For instance there is now a lubricity requirement for #1 diesel so if the kerosene is to be used as diesel fuel it is likely to have an additive to meet the lubricity requirement.
    If the kerosene was not going to be used as Jet A1 the static dissipatior additive would not be included.
    A few years ago I was talking with a fellow on another forum who had worked in a refinery in Alaska. He said that the only difference between Jet Fuel and number 1 Diesel that they made was that the Jet fuel was filtered twice instead of once.

    Actually it is the other way around in many parts of the world and likely to be here in Australia too.
    There is almost no "domestic" kerosene market in Australia any more, it is virtually all jet fuel.
    You can no longer buy Power Kerosene and just about everyone now has electric lighting so lighting kerosene is no longer needed..
    About the only domestic use for kerosene that I can think of is home kerosene heaters in the winter and a bit of Alpine diesel.
    .
    I will have to go back out to my friendly depot tomorrow and find out what they have to say.

    EDIT
    Here are some interesting production charts for "Jet Fuel" and "Kerosene" that will not allow me to paste them here.

    In 2010, there were 28 thousand metric tons of "kerosene" produced in Australia, down from 240 thousand metric tons produced in 2000
    http://www.factfish.com/statistic-co...m%20refineries


    In 2010 there were 4255 thousand metric tons of "Jet Fuel" produced in Australia, down from 4404 thousand metric tons produced in 2000
    http://www.factfish.com/statistic-co...l%20production





    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 3rd February 2014 at 03:44 AM.

  3. #13
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    Re: Blending issues

    To bring this back on track
    I think from what Tony has mentioned try cold filtering with the usual bunnings bag style setup first. let this oil settle then put it through the Fuge.
    I find with my cleaning that cold filter via a bag filter then upflow settle before a final clean with finer filters makes some really good clean oil. I don't have the cash for a centrifuge but I'd put it after my bag and upflow system. that way any issues you are having will have been cleaned up before the fuge.
    again like most have mentioned if it's cold filtered most fats will have been stopped before the centrifuge.

    If it is a wax then you need to identify it first. But from what I see in my oils it is usually just high melting point fats.
    again testing will help locate the cause of your problems. fats will melt in the sun while insitue but waxes will require more heat to melt.

    Some more info on what you are finding with your tests would be of help.
    describe the colour and texture of the residue, what your initial feed stock is and where it is used, what they cook in the oil / lard etc.
    all these answers will help break down the possible causes.

    Michael
    97 Jeep XJ Cherokee on B100. 0 km's on B100 and counting !!!! (Sold)
    2002 Merc ML270 now on B100. (Sold)
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    Stainless processor with blue water pump.

  4. #14
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    Re: Blending issues

    Just a quick update.

    I went to a fuel depot here in Paradise and found that the cost of a 200 litre drum of kero is $450
    When I asked about Jet A1, I was told they get it in bulk each week and deliver it straight to the end consumer. If I gave them a bit of notice they could probably do a drum for about $350.
    It is great when you know everyone in town.

    I started asking a few questions and the fellow told me that when they load up in bulk, Kerosene and JET A1 come from the same pipe at the refinery. The only difference is that if they are going to use it for kerosene they give you a bottle of blue dye.
    He also said that the market for domestic kerosene is very minimal.

    Another thing I was told is that they are required to wash the bulk tank out with water before loading Jet A1 at the refinery.
    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 3rd February 2014 at 05:17 PM. Reason: tidy things up

  5. #15
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    Re: Blending issues

    I have been thinking about this and remembering. I remember how my glycerol washed, cold filtered (5 microns industrial filter), honey clear, good enough to put on your salad WVO when put in my fuel tank (300D) deposited grey slimey glick with imbedded granular wax crystals onto and into the fuel filter and gobs of it at first... Even in a heated system ie no fats possible.

    We assume that you have not mixed it with residual Diesel in the tank. [NEVER mix deisel and WVO or WVO blend unless you particularly want to see the grey glop. As to what you can allow to mix in your tank, BioD 100 and WVO are fine, BioD and Dino are fine BUT NOT WVO and dino.] I would run the machine totally out of one fuel on the open road before putting in the other. (but rarely did I have to bleed my machines.)

    I reiterate that the source of this wax is not WVO (blended or otherwise) but dino deposits in an old fuel tank. Dino fuel is designed to deal with impurities and floating bits by fixing to a surface and thereby not troubling the filters too much between services, "set and forget" is its motto. On my previous experience some years ago the WVO will clean this up and throw it forward into the filters. This will go on until the tank and system are sparkling clean, then it will occur no more. In the merc 300D I dealt with it by having an extra truck fuel filter in a handy place before the "real one" and a tray of spare cheap truck filter elements. In the initial stages due to clogging I had to change this out regularly on the side of the road, once even at 50 KMs, after 4 months I forgot all about it and neglected the filters, so clean was my system by then.

    In the laboratory, high grade kerosene is routinely used to dissolve wax. I heard a Chemistry professor say that it was the only solvent that dissolved wax. As an apiarist I could certainly agree that nothing else under my kitchen sink will do it. So if you got wax and want to get rid of it... look to kerosene.

    Even with Kerosene I doubt that whathe will solve such a wax problem without the filter solution I employed. This is because I believe the cleaning power of the WVO will outstrip the ability of any Kerosene to dissolve it, particularly in the early stages of going to WVO/blend. Later there will be no problem. Do the extra simple truck filter upline from your standard one I say whathe.

    The other issue with petrol blends is they can get hard to start the more petrol you have in the blend. Not so Kerosene.

    To share relevant information I accept/know/found:
    Diesel/distillate is a mixture of over 400 compounds from ethers to long chain waxes. It only averages out to be around C16, "Cetane" which is the idea diesel fuel. Hence a "cetane" number and rating (they are different). Consider Kerosene to be a high grade form of Diesel without the lubricity and it is a mixture of 200 or so compounds (not certain of the number).
    In Army transport, once you "wax" your diesel it is considered not fit for use and must be discarded. What is this "waxing" of diesel? Well that is where, on a sub zero night with the jerry cans on top of the vehicles the wax comes out of solution and is visible floating on the surface of the fuel. Yes this occurs best when you take summer grade diesel into alpine areas....
    In some cold areas in Australia in every farm diesel fuel tank there floats globules of wax, some bigger than a baseball, but much more "grows" on the sides and internal protuberances, built up over the years. So tells me the man that delivers it in the non articulated tanker. Farmers aren't so picky as the Australian Army and use it regardless. No doubt the root cause is that the summer diesel is not emptied out before the autumn order goes in, if it is ordered at all.
    To confirm I have friends on farm dino diesel and on a real cold morning their trucks, Peugeot 307s etc can stop. What do they do? They wait for the sun to come out and warm it up. In conversation to me they attribute this to wax. If it is so then no doubt caused by having a less than Alpine fuel after the summer diesel included in the tanks is taken into account.
    Around here when i was WVOing Alpine grade dino used to be made with 40% by volume heating oil which in turn is 50% Kerosene... ie at least 20% Kerosene. I don't know what they do now.

    BP

  6. #16
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    Re: Blending issues

    Hi BP,
    Quote Originally Posted by bushpig View Post
    Around here when i was WVOing Alpine grade dino used to be made with 40% by volume heating oil which in turn is 50% Kerosene... ie at least 20% Kerosene. I don't know what they do now.
    The fellow I was talking to today said that Alpine diesel is a mixture of kerosene and #2 diesel although he was not aware of the percentages.


    Yes this occurs best when you take summer grade diesel into alpine areas....
    In some cold areas in Australia in every farm diesel fuel tank there floats globules of wax,... No doubt the root cause is that the summer diesel is not emptied out before the autumn order goes in, if it is ordered at all.
    BP
    Yes, I too have read that there is no one formula for #2 diesel. During the summer it is produced with more wax content because the weather is warmer and the wax will remain liquid.
    During the winter it is produced with less wax content and consequently starts to wax at a lower temperature.
    This also depends on what part of the country you live in and how cold it is likely to get.
    So the best idea is to buy your diesel fuel from a service station that has high turn over so you are always getting the correct fuel for the time of the year at that location.

  7. #17
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    Re: Blending issues

    Quote Originally Posted by bushpig View Post
    In the merc 300D I dealt with it by having an extra truck fuel filter in a handy place before the "real one" and a tray of spare cheap truck filter elements. In the initial stages due to clogging I had to change this out regularly on the side of the road, once even at 50 KMs, after 4 months I forgot all about it and neglected the filters, so clean was my system by then.
    I have found my old post on the subject at infopop. http://www.biodieseldiscussion.com/f...ghlight=GREASY this will show you what I suggest whathe
    It was the primary filter I had to keep changing out on the merc. It was the truck filter elements in the Nissan.
    After I realised I couldn't run blends legally I got some heating elements off Dana for the injector lines and injector heaters off somewhere else. The Greasy Pig did hundreds of thousands of kilometres, over half of them on SVO... I stopped vege-ing and went back to dino at some stage. The Greasy Pig still lives but is out of rego dusty in the shed. I plan to give it away for parts to another merc 300D owner.
    Herewith another thread on the subject. http://www.biodieseldiscussion.com/f...ad.php?t=20314
    Last edited by bushpig; 4th February 2014 at 07:19 PM.

  8. #18
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    Re: Blending issues

    I don't have time to to find the thread on ethanol inclusion in a blend so herewith a quick "soldier's 5" (five minute lesson) on it.

    I came up with the idea from the following facts. (I was not the first as it turned out http://www.biodieseldiscussion.com/f...ad.php?t=20314 but at least I got there before Kugel, the father of blending on the infopop forum in younger days. I love Kugel.)

    1. It would be nice not to have to de-water oil and just have something that would "mop it up" and hold it in solution so that all you got was a bit of extra power. If water is in solution it is invisible and harmless to the injector pump for all intents and purposes. Free power less processing.
    2. Some mechanics/truck operators advocated putting a litre of metho with a tank of fuel now and again as a biocide. I assume that the bugs only live in diesel because they can get to water somewhere in the tank; Metho would go to where the water is and kill the bugs.
    3. Injection of water into diesel engines is readily done (for example in large diesel powered ships using bunker oil) to increase power by way of modifying the flame front characteristics also having the effect of steam cleaning the bore and piston at every stroke cycle. In Europe molecular water bound into fuels was thought of and advocated for that reason. Water injection kits can be bought for diesels for improvement in power and economy. You can even mist it in the air intake.
    4. The bush test for ethanol in petrol was to add water to a sample. If there was ethanol in the petrol it will be pulled out by the water (having a polar end in solvent terms) having more affinity for the water than the petrol and will form peculiar ovoid shaped drops on the bottom. Never having seen them before you will recognise them straight away, so peculiar are they, like short slugs moving slowly around the bottom of the container. Yes I have seen them once but when I didn't expect to, alarmed me as I remember but I don't recall why... would have been a blend issue.
    5. BioD and WVO are more hydrophylic (water loving) than dino. In filters with a clear visable water trap the exact same machines (Nissan Patrols) will show water visible in the trap on the dino but nil nix nothing in the trap on Biod & WVO. The now Senator (no joke seriously a commonwealth senator) and I just looked at each other and shook our heads at that... closed the bonnets. He said that he always had water in the trap.... I was aghast at that.

    Potential concerns:
    6. The ethanol we use is called methylated Spirits and already comes with 5% water and we are putting this through our injector pumps. Eeeek..
    7. It is something that you wouldn't feel comfortable doing unless you had a water trap type filter. On the Greasy Pig I had 2. Nissan only 1.

    I used this blend and others until the discovery of the legal situation on blends. I still could have blended avoiding the legislation accepting a benzene ring pollution cost but went to SVO.
    The vehicles where without any injector issues, those vehicles still run today on dino.
    Last edited by bushpig; 7th February 2014 at 03:52 PM. Reason: tidy up

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