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Thread: Blending ULP/RUG

  1. #11
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    Nov 2005
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    517

    Re: Blending ULP/RUG

    Quote Originally Posted by froggo View Post
    Hi everyone,

    just been thinking about the 5-15% ULP that I blend into my wvo. Does blending the ULP help repel water trapped in the wvo?

    I suppose thinning the oil would allow the separate/free water particles to settle a bit easier but what about the suspended water? Given that petrol should repel water?

    Pity the HPT gives a false negative when blended. Not to mention the possible explosion/fire as the petrol fumes catch Not recommended.

    What do you think? Has anyone found any good info on the subject?

    God bless, froggo.
    To the best of my knowledge and experience, ULP can contribute water to your fuel, because it always has some water in it, as all commercial fuels have from condensation and storage. Most in ground fuel tanks always end up with water in them, know this from my days driving fuel tankers and road trains. Not unusual to drain your tankers after a trip to find up to 5+lt of water in the bottom of them.

    Still can't understand why people want to use ULP as a blend, the most logical simple and best form of blend is either 10% dino or BD. The first thing I was told back in 1976 when setting off on this adventure, was never use petrol to thin veggie oil and since then have yet to see anyone blending with petrol that hasn't ended up with a stuffed engine or never ending problems. Yet everyone who uses dino or BD, never has a problem and our old cruiser now has just over 500000klms on SVO, using 10% BD or dino during Tas winters.

    It's up to the individuals, but really it all boils down to logic, petrol is not designed for a diesel engine and has additives and flash points which are very detrimental to the internal operations of compression firing. No amount of apologetics or illogical crap can change those facts and when there is a compatible substance for blending that can be of benefit, that's it. Add some 2 stroke or ATF to your starter tank, use dino or BD if you blend and your engine will run better cleaner and longer without problems.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    Sydney
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    Re: Blending ULP/RUG

    Quote Originally Posted by Alga View Post
    To the best of my knowledge and experience, ULP can contribute water to your fuel, because it always has some water in it, as all commercial fuels have from condensation and storage. Most in ground fuel tanks always end up with water in them, know this from my days driving fuel tankers and road trains. Not unusual to drain your tankers after a trip to find up to 5+lt of water in the bottom of them.
    I would expect you would also know that fuel tanks always have water in them and for this reason the pick up on tanks in servos always have to have a minimum amount of fuel in them and the pickups are not located on the buttom of the tanks but further up. I would also expect you would also know that there is a seperate bottom pickup for removal of said water so the level dosen't get to high.

    If ULP had such Igh levels of water, how is it that Vehicles and other engines that use it don't have problems with it. Having come along from the days of carbys and points which you may be more familiar with than the modern computerised fuel injection systems, I can assure you they are not impervious to water and in fact are very sensative to it. If the water problem in petrol was as bad as you say, then why don't cars and small engines suffer the problems you talk about?
    Also, if this water comes from condensation, how is it that only petrol tanks have the problem and not diesel tanks? Both fuels will float on water and both distribution channels have water seperators so how does condensation only occour with petrol and not Diesel ? I'm very interested to learn about this!


    Still can't understand why people want to use ULP as a blend, the most logical simple and best form of blend is either 10% dino or BD.
    Well there are many reasons actually.
    The ability to thin the oil far more effectively is one. You can't thin something to a base standard using that viscosity to start with, all you do in this case is make the Diesel thick. There is no possible way to get down to the original target viscosity. The only way to achieve this is to start with a blending agent than is thinner than where you want to end up and convinently, petrol fits that bill very nicely. There is also the advantage of easier starting and I have also found the solvent effect of petrol on diesel fuel systems to be quite similar to that of bio.
    There are also a LOT of other advantages to using petrol but I'll let you do your own research to enlighten yourself of them. If you enjoy learning as much as I do, Your going to have a ball with this one!


    The first thing I was told back in 1976 when setting off on this adventure, was never use petrol to thin veggie oil and since then have yet to see anyone blending with petrol that hasn't ended up with a stuffed engine or never ending problems.
    Yes, I have been told a lot of things that have proven to be absoloute bunk and rubbish in my veg oil experience as well. It's funny how most people have never actually tried what they disparage or even got their hands dirty but hold everything they hear from other people that have no hands on experience either as complete and utter gospel and not only that, will argue a point with people that have been doing it successfuly for years.
    It's actualy pretty amusing once you get over the stupidity and ignorace of it!

    It's true that we have never met so in that regard, your statement of never having met anyone that hadn't stuffed their engine or had never ending problems could, in a very specific way be considered the truth. To say that people who do blend stuff engines and do have never ending problems would however be a complete untruth and I can verify that with absoloute certainty. I'm getting close to 200K of blending miles now over 10 years and have yet to stuff an engine and the only time the bonnet gets lifted is to check the engine oil and water and while I'm at it I change the fuel filter about every 5th or so time. Other than that its put my blend in and go on the stock fuel system.

    Yet everyone who uses dino or BD, never has a problem and our old cruiser now has just over 500000klms on SVO, using 10% BD or dino during Tas winters.
    Well thats a demonstrably UNtrue statement.
    I have seen loads of discussion about dropout and waxes being formed from using Dino in WVO and a simple search of veg oil forums would show exactly that. This problem has caused loads of people a lot of troubel and has been discussed here on many occasions as well. Perhaps this is something else you have not come into personal contact with like people that have had no trouble blending with ULP but of course thats not to say it hasn't happened and there is indisputable proof that it does. Blending with Bio also has it's problems just as blending with ULP will cause problems if it's not done right. The supposition that there is a perfect answer at all is also a flawed and ignorant statement which again can be proven rather than just theroised.

    You would find starting to be even easier in your Tasmanian winters and your fuel far more low temprature tolerant if you used 10% ULP instead of Dino.

    It's up to the individuals, but really it all boils down to logic, petrol is not designed for a diesel engine and has additives and flash points which are very detrimental to the internal operations of compression firing.
    Since when did the 90% veg oil start getting designed for use in diesel engines and have additives put in for the running and flash points of IC engine use?
    That statement is pretty much laughable when one is advocating the use of 90% Veg oil in a diesel engine. Yes, we have all heard the old thing about Rudolph designed his engine to run on peanut oil ( which is incidently flawed, he designed it to run on coal dust and switched to peanut oil) but there is no doubt that the vehicle any of us are driving was NOT designed to run on 90 or even 20% Veg oil. To then propose that a possible 10% additive in the form of petrol is going to be detrimental to the internal operations of and engine and has difference flash points etc is nothing short of illogical and irrelevant.

    Engines were designed to run on and are in fact set up for diesel. They are not designed to run diesel with any other additive in the form of vegetable oil. To propose that it is illogical to run 90% veg with 10% petrol because the engine was not designed for it and the fuel charachistics are different and changing that 10% to the correct fuel makes the other 90% ok, really is a strect of ones imagination and about as illogical as it gets.
    Pick the engine manufacturer of your choice and see if you can get their approval of one over the other. I think most people would already know the answer to that one.


    No amount of apologetics or illogical crap can change those facts and when there is a compatible substance for blending that can be of benefit, that's it. Add some 2 stroke or ATF to your starter tank, use dino or BD if you blend and your engine will run better cleaner and longer without problems.
    I agree. One cannot change the facts that running petrol has many advantages over running dino.
    I believe it helps with compatibility as well. Engines are not timed or are set up for the oprtimal injection pressures of veg oil. The fact veg oil lights off later than diesel in a compression and the fact Petrol will light off much faster due to it's lower compression tolerance gives petrol a huge advantage over using dino for it's ability to bring the timing and compression pressures back much closer to that the engine is designed and set up for.
    This is easily demonstrated by cold weather startups and increased performance which yes, I have got off my arse and gone and run back to back tests with. Mine showed both 5 and 10% blends of ULP to be superiour to any blend of Dino I tested up to 50% What did your tests show in your vehicle?
    My engine ran far better with ULP of dino as the blending agent.

    As for the 2 stroke and ATF, well certainly the ATF has been shown to have changed from what it was and no longer has the same favourable properties we would like. 2 stroke on the other hand seems to have a different opinion and it's value makes sense to me although I haven't tried it myself.

    I have covered the running better and dismissed that idea as being flawed in my tests but as for cleaner and longer, cleaner and longer than what? A 90% ULP blend?
    How do you define cleaner? again, I have tested and observed that due to what I believe is the ULP bringing the burning charasteristics of the oil back closer to that of Dino the engine is set up for, all my vehicles have run noticable cleaner as far as exhaust emissions when driving. I have also noticed that the ULP content cleans the fuel system that Veg and dino leave behind and that the petrol also seems to help with the presevation of some fuel lines the oil seems to dry out and make go brittle. Not all, but some I have used.

    With your statement of longer, do you mean more mile or more time between services? If you mean between problems, I can't answer that because I have yet to ever have a problem related to my use of ULP in my blends. It's been 10 years now and if I have a problem tomorrow, it will still be less of a problem than changing oil or brake pads or even rust.

    I'd like to hear about your personal experiences with blending ULP and the problems it has caused you.
    I just can't verify anything you have said from my personal experiences, those document experiences of other or even in theroy or logic.
    Always willing to learn though! :0)

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Newcastle
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    22

    Re: Blending ULP/RUG

    Hi Peter1,

    I would be interested in hearing your rules of thumb for blending. I run straight (filtered) WVO in my 300D, and the main problem I have is lack of flow through my primary filter (supercheap $5.95 inline) they seem to collapse on themselves and block at random. I will add that I run no FPE, and I believe my thermostat is currently stuck open (or missing!) as engine temps in winter hovered around 70 degrees.

    Would 5% (E10 95 or 98???) reduce the viscosity by say 25%? 10% reduces viscosity by 50%?

    I run WVO purely for the cost savings, and given my current 100% works well, I am interested in blending as little as possible, to increase filter life, and clean out the gunk in the fuel system, which I'm sure is accumulating.

    Interested in your thoughts...

    Cheers,

    Fat80y

  4. #14
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    Feb 2012
    Location
    Sydney
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    Re: Blending ULP/RUG

    I don't really have mnay rules for blending, it's pretty straightforward.

    I had a 300D and used 5% Petrol in summer and 15% in the coldest time of winter and varied in between. I too in the end ran an unheated stock system with those filters. I had problems with them too collapsing even the fuel was well cleaned and dried. I now use Metal canistered filters that are OEM from Subaru cars. They work well even with the fuel consumption on my current 4.2 Turbo engine which is dialed up. I get very good life out of them and they don't cause a restriction in the fuel delivery till they are well blocked up. I also had a go at the CAV type filters and they are a pain in the arse and don't perform well either.

    I don't know what the viscosity reduction is, I never measured it. It's a bit irrelevant in that you can't add 25% ulp if that's the viscosity number you are after. You get a reduction of whatever amount and it's a benefit and that's it. THe viscosity reduction may not be linear anyway. Perhaps you would get a certain percent with one oil and something different at another particular in different temps.

    On a merc Viscosity is irrelevant. They have the strongest pumps in lift and internals made so if it flows through a hose a merc will pump it. I also thought my thermostat was missing but then found it did indeed have an operating unit installed but it was just a cold one. People say diesels should run hot, Not sure why this is. I left mine and had no problems.

    As for gunk, IF you are filtering your oil correctly there should be no gunk at all except what was left over from the diesel. All my fuel tanks have always got cleaner on WVO, I have never experienced a buildup on any vehicle. IF you want to clean the fuel system. Go to bunnings and buy a bottle of Naptha from the paint solvents section. It's about $12 a litre and is what 99% of fuel and oil cleaner products are based on or the active ingredient. Throw in about 250 Ml and have some spare filters for when the gunk comes through which if leftover diesel deposits will be black.

    That's about all the rules I have for blending. Clean dry fuel to start with 5-15% depending on time of year.
    It's the most simple and straightforward way to use veg fuels

    IF you want your merc to go a lot better, Look at the pump for where the wide open throttle screw is and take it out and pitch it. Did that on mine and nothing broke in years but they sure did go a damn site better. You can also wind the max fuel delivery screw up but you have to get the oil filter housing off to get to the back of the pump. Throttle stop screw removal gives good improvement with no effort.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,190

    Re: Blending ULP/RUG

    Quote Originally Posted by Fat80y View Post
    Hi Peter1,

    I would be interested in hearing your rules of thumb for blending. I run straight (filtered) WVO in my 300D, and the main problem I have is lack of flow through my primary filter (supercheap $5.95 inline) they seem to collapse on themselves and block at random. I will add that I run no FPE, and I believe my thermostat is currently stuck open (or missing!) as engine temps in winter hovered around 70 degrees.

    SNIP

    Cheers,

    Fat80y
    The biggest problem you have is using the Supercrap paper element fuel filters.
    go to a filter specialist and get one of these:

    This is the specified filter for the Mercedes 300D. The brass inserts are not essential and make it more expensive.
    I have 3 of these (without brass inserts). One in use, one in a ziplok bag in the drivers door pocket and the third is in my workshop either awaiting cleaning, in the process of cleaning or clean on the shelf ready for when needed.

    You can see when they are clogging, you can blow them back if necessary (by mouth) to get you a bit further and they can be cleaned, using dilute caustic solution to turn any used cooking oil into soap, then rinsed out and dried.

    If you use the wing-nut style hose clamps, you don't even need a screwdriver to replace them.

    Regards,
    Tony
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP)


    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 SOLD.
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).


    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  6. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    300

    Re: Blending ULP/RUG

    I don't see the point of those Filters.
    They are too coarse to filter anything out of prefiltered oil and anything they would catch would be large enough that it would take a long time to block a decent 1-5UM filter anyway.

    If you have anything coming out of your tank or lines, forget about catching it with filters. Been there done that and a person is far better off just pulling the tank, cleaning it out properly, doing the lines as well and not having to stuff around cleaning or changing filters every day or 2.

    I only change my filters every 3-4 months and I have put a lot of oil through by then. Other people tell me their filters last 12 months. Dunno what they do different but I have never had that sort of filter longevity myself.

    The other thing with multiple filters is you also add in more points for air leaks. I try to minimise them as much as possible especially when I can get around them with other god practices.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
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    WA
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    4,190

    Re: Blending ULP/RUG

    Peter,
    I would not attempt to tell anyone how they should do things, just how I do things. Where I see something that I see as a problem, I point it out.

    I use these filters because they work for me. They also happen to be the filters specified by the manufacturer. I cannot see any better recommendation for using them.
    These filters are "rock catchers" they will block if there is a lot of "diesel bug residue" or oxidised oil coming from the fuel tank. They will generally block well before the main filter does. All fuel put in the tank should be filtered to much finer than the rating of the finest filter in the system. In-vehicle filters are there to prevent contamination from within the system affecting the Injection / fuel pumps, not to catch contaminants which were in the fuel at refuelling.

    As you know, in a Mercedes 300D, there is a in-tank strainer which can also block. This is a item on my vehicle maintenance plan. I clean it annually.
    On my Mercedes 300D, I used to monitor the fuel pressure just before the IP. I stopped doing that because I could tell, by the way the engine responded under full load, how the filters were faring. If I had less power than usual, I changed the pre-filter. If this did not fix the issue, I then changed the main filter.
    Because I can clean the pre-filter, it was and still is a logical approach in response to low power at full pedal situations. In most cases, I was able to drive to a convenient location to make the pre-filter change. (the zip-lok bag, which held the clean pre-filter, keeps the used pre-filter from making a mess it the car)

    In general, the main filter lasts me over 20 000km and the pre-filter over 10 000 km. I believe that this is due to the settling / filtering processes I use.

    I have previously described my fuel processes on this forum. If you are interested, please look it up.

    Regards,
    Tony
    Last edited by Tony From West Oz; 28th December 2014 at 03:34 AM.
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP)


    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 SOLD.
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).


    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  8. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    300

    Re: Blending ULP/RUG

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony From West Oz View Post
    These filters are "rock catchers" they will block if there is a lot of "diesel bug residue" or oxidised oil coming from the fuel tank.
    OK, that makes sense. Never had it so never thought of it.


    In general, the main filter lasts me over 20 000km and the pre-filter over 10 000 km. I believe that this is due to the settling / filtering processes I use.
    Clearly if you are getting 20L K out of your main filter, the oil must be very clean so what is blocking the much coarser pre filter in half the time?
    I can't see you getting Diesel bug all the time so what is it that blocks the pre filter. Do you get bits of poly or the like forming or is it something else these filters are pulling out of what must be good clean oil?

    I just came back from the country. I changed the fuel filter before I went up and suffered some power loss when I got tot he big hills and hit full boost. I change my soft Fuel line annualy at exactly this time of year and thought the hose must have gone harder than usual and was leaking. I cut off all the ends, Re clamped everything and had the same problem. I came back to the workshop, Changed most of the soft line with what I had and went for another run with the same problem.
    I then got suspect, threw in another filter and took it for a run. It had some air still in it as I went up the hill just down the road but the air went through and as my foot was flat on the throttle, it boosted up and turned the tyres at 40 on a dry road. Yeeha!!

    Oh well, at least the price of the filters is right!
    :0)

    Sometimes it's the most simple, obvious things we over look.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    lyndoch south australia
    Posts
    326

    Re: Blending ULP/RUG

    Your probably quite right Peter, i am going from a fairly youthfull memory. just remember taking the float bowl off and it was half full of what looked like water and petrol on top. It very easily could have been 30% water and 70% ethanol and that amount of water was just too high for the engine to run. I just assumed it was water. BUT if what you say is right and adding a little water to E85 makes the petrol separate and float, wouldnt this be happening wherever condensation occured in holding tanks ?? or would this amount of water just be absorbed and not cause separation.??
    Last edited by dagwill; 29th December 2014 at 02:34 PM.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    sydney
    Posts
    240

    Re: Blending ULP/RUG

    Hi All,
    I can only reiterate Tony's comments on the pre filters.
    I've used them for a long time and they do a great job of catching any 'rock's and keeping the finer downstream filters cleaner.
    Two more points on them..some times it pays to ream out the tails a little to increase the ID without weakening the tails; and one big plus with them is that you can see at a glance if there are any large particles present.
    I change mine maybe every 20K but sometimes then its not necessary. I used to wash them out between uses but hardly worth the effort as they are not expensive at all.
    Laurie

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