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Thread: Drying WVO

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    BC canada
    Posts
    9

    Drying WVO

    I have a question about drying WVO and titration levels. Is it possible to change the titration valve of the oil through the drying process. I have built a drying tower for my set up. It's a 150L water water tank. I stripped all the insulation off the tank down to the bare metal. I have a drum heater wrapped around the tank and a pump set up to cycle and spray the oil in the tank. I have a vacuum system set up to draw fresh air through the tank. I recently added some oil to the tower to dry. I tested the first oil the first time and it was at 1.5. I started the drying process, unfortunately, I started and stop the process several times. So a month later after many start/stops, I was final ready to transfer the oil to the processing tower. I tested the oil and it titrated at 18. So, is it possible to raise the titration level of the oil through excessive drying/heating? How long could one expect to dry oil? Is the drying process usual a day or two, or a week or more? I redid my neutral solution to rule that out and it still titrated at the same level.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,130

    Re: Drying WVO

    Yes, heating the oil and exposure to oxygen will promote polymerisation and other degradation of the oil.
    Is your oil wet due to washing it, or just comes like that?
    Washing the oil may be beneficial. I wash my biodiesel, to remove residual byproduct.
    To dry my biodiesel after washing, I put it in half full buckets or cubes and put them in the sun with an insect screen over them. After 4 hours on a sunny day, any remaining water has dropped out and the biodiesel is "sparkling clear". I pour the biodiesel into storage containers and leave the bottom 5% of each container. I consolidate the remnants and sit in the sun again. Another 4 hours and the sparkling clear biodiesel can be drawn of. A small amount of water remains in the container and it is put on weeds, giving them a minuscule amount of oil on the leaves of the weeds. They die off soon after.
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    Toyota Camry Hybrid - (Wife's Car)

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 All body panels, headlights, interior engine and ECU available.


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  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    BC canada
    Posts
    9

    Re: Drying WVO

    No, the oil is not wet due to washing. I'm trying to dry the WVO prior to processing it. I have read on many threads that water in the WVO is a problem and the drier the WVO, the easier the reaction stage will go. So I built the drying tower with the intentions of drying out any water that many be in the WVO. I plan on water washing the bio after, put I wasn't going to use my drying tower. I was just going to do a bubble dry method. To be honest, I haven't got to that part of the process yet with a big batch. So should I not be so concerned with water in my WVO? Would heating the oil in the tower, without pumping it around, but still drawing the air through the tank work better?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,130

    Re: Drying WVO

    Why do you believe that there is water in your oil?
    Is it stored outside - if yes, then definitely test for water and dry it if necessary.
    How to test for water? Check out the "Hot Pan Test"

    I don't dry my oil as it comes from the fryer and is transferred to my oil drums which are stored inside the shop. The only time water might get into my oil is when I transport it, but the drum bungs are tight and the seals are good. I store it inside my workshop until I process it.
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    Toyota Camry Hybrid - (Wife's Car)

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 All body panels, headlights, interior engine and ECU available.


    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    BC canada
    Posts
    9

    Re: Drying WVO

    I just assumed that all oil has some water in it. I did do the hot pan test and I saw bubbles. But I don't know how many bubble there should be before I become concerned. So I went with the theory that if there is any, then there is too many. But I don't know if that's really the case. I figured it be one of those things that I would learn in time. My oil is outside in containers but they are under cover.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,130

    Re: Drying WVO

    If you only had a few bubbles, I wouldn't bother drying the oil. A little moisture in the oil should not affect the reaction much, if at all.
    If you had a lot of bubbles then I would look at drying the oil.
    Do a test batch of say 10 litres in a 20L cubie after titrating the oil.
    See how the reaction goes.
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    Toyota Camry Hybrid - (Wife's Car)

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 All body panels, headlights, interior engine and ECU available.


    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Fort Worth, Texas, USA
    Posts
    274

    Re: Drying WVO

    A formula for soap making is triglycerides with fatty acids bonded to glycerine plus caustic with water present plus enough heat. In the absence of water the reaction to form soap is slower. Drier oil is better to lessen the quantity of soap formed. But a consideration of cost and energy effectiveness needs to be made. How much does it cost to perfectly dry the oil? Look at descriptions of Flash Evaporators for best cost effectiveness in drying vegetable oil. Under adequate vacuum the boiling point of water goes down. A flash evaporator sprays warmed or hot oil into a container with a vacuum inside it. Since the temperature the oil needs to be at to do the proceedure is lower less free fatty acids are produced upon drying, and it's a lot faster. So the titration will not go up as much if the oil is dried at a lower temperature. A small vent slowly letting air into the vacuum chamber allows the water vapor produced to be carried out of the chamber towards the vacuum source. It's like a vacuum still but with modifications. A cold condenser between the vacuum pump and the vacuum container will keep most of the water from going through your vacuum pump. This type of system is surely a more cost effective and energy effective way of drying your oil. A flash evaporator is expensive to purchase unless you make it yourself. A problem if you make one yourself is the walls of the container need to be thick so atmospheric pressure will not crush the vaccum container. The best shape for the container is spherical. or a long round tube. I'm not sure how to optimize the shape of the ends of a round tube shaped flash evaporator.
    Last edited by WesleyB; 1st December 2016 at 04:43 AM. Reason: used wrong word in a sentence

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    York UK
    Posts
    104

    Re: Drying WVO

    hello horseflybiodiesel,

    If you are worried about water in your oil before processing why not conduct a glycerol pre treatment. This will reduce the ffa content (reduce the titration) and lower the water content. As long as your oil is not really wet a pre treatment will always leave the oil at less than 500ppm water.

    Another consideration is that mixing your methoxide produces water anyway. 1KG KOH in 20 litres of methanol produces 320gms of water (1.6%) plus any water in the methanol. With so much water being produced with methoxide production it can be counter productive to use lots of energy into drying your oil.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Lismore NSW
    Posts
    321

    Re: Drying WVO

    Hi Horse fly,

    since we all throw in ideas here :-) I have changed to do the acid base method, and you can convert really crappy oil to good bio that way. Only downside is your messing around with sulfuric acid so be extremely careful!

    I do 1000ltr batches, so I mix 40ltr of methanol with about 1ltr of acid, be aware methanol will boil if the acid is introduced to fast. once the acid is mixed in the methanol, all goes in the pre heated oil as per normal, let is stir for about 24 hrs and then let it settle. All water will drop to the bottom, so you can drain it easier, the acid converts the FFA's as well, so your titration goes down as well. Same as smithy has mentioned. If you are not confident with this, Smithy's idea is good too, I have used it before to treat crappy oil. Only thing I found was the issue to sepperate the glycerine from the oil.

    Bottom line, unless your oil is really shitty, its been out in the rain in a open container or you are using it straight in your vehicle, don't worry about a few bubbles.
    1990 Toyota Hilux LN106 with ATG 2 tank system (sold after running 150.000 ks on mainly WVO)
    1993 Toyota 75 Series with 1 HZ engine both 75l factory tanks and a custom 170l under tray tank.
    200.000km 80% on bio 10% on WVO 10% on dino,

    "him who never made a mistake, made no discovery either"


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Fort Worth, Texas, USA
    Posts
    274

    Re: Drying WVO

    "1 KG KOH in 20 litres of methanol produces 320 gms of water (1.6%) plus any water in the methanol." Not exactly. Most KOH is not 100% pure. My KOH is 85% pure. But if your KOH is 90% pure then 1 kilogram equals 900 grams of KOH, which is about 16 moles, not the higher amount assuming 1000 grams of KOH. 900 grams of KOH would produce 288 grams of water if the reaction proceeded 100% with methanol to produce methoxide. But the reaction does not proceed 100% where Hydroxide ion from KOH plucks the hydrogen from the hydroxide on methanol, producing water and methoxide ion. I don't know the percent the reaction forms at equilibrium. I remember reading that a person said only 5% does the potential reaction proceed to form methoxide. A spectral absorption emission analysis could determine approximate concentrations of competing materials. Water decomposes methoxide. If the methanol or ethanol has too much water in it not enough methoxide or ethoxide will form for biodiesel to form (transesterification). I tried making ethyl biodiesel with 95% ethanol, it didn't work. Making ethyl biodiesel did work using 99.5% ethanol with 0.5% water plus KOH plus corn oil heat and stirring. A dangerous chemical called sodium or potassium methoxide exists which is pure methoxide salt, with no water in it. That's the ultimate in making biodiesel with no water present probably with highest percentage fatty acid esters resulting. Fuel Farmer on info pop biodiesel forum may have used sodium methoxide a few times that was described in poists.

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