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Thread: bio diesel wash

  1. #21
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    Re: bio diesel wash

    I will try to explain it understandably. I was a cemistry tudor paid money by the government here to teach freshman first year college chemistry. A strong acid (sulfuric) produces a proton. A proton is a hydrogen atom without an electron accompanying it. Hydrogen gas occurs as two hydrogen atoms bonded to each other with two electrons shared between the two protons. Sulfuric acid has a central sulfur atom with four oxygen bonded to the center sulfur atom. Two of those oxygen atoms in the molecule are bonded to two hydrogen atoms. When one or both of those hydrogen atoms separate from the group of bonded, connected atoms that make the molecule of sulfuric acid then the disconnected part is a proton with a positive charge, but the larger group of bonded atoms Sulfur, 4 oxygens, 1 hydrogen are left with one positive charge (the proton) subtracted from the bonds being balanced so the molecule has as many protons as electrons. So the remaing ion structure is one positive charge (the proton that disconnected) short of the molecule having an equal number of negative charge electrons as positive charge protons. So sulfuric acid can lose two protons as an acid. Sulfuric acid is not the easiest strong acid to explain this with. But in a free fatty acid, some of the molecules have double bonds. That means a single bond directly between the two atoms nucleus, but the second bond is a phi bond that sticks out on the side along the long carbon chain of 12-22 carbon atoms. When a proton from sulfuric acid ionizes (disconnects) from sulfuric acid, electrophillic addition occurs on a fatty acid molecule with a double bond. The positive proton attacks the two electrons in the double bond between two carbon atoms in th e chain of carbons and forms a bond with one of the two carbons, which leaves the other carbon or the carbon next to it electron deficient, a positive charge. Then the negatively charged sulfuric acid ion that lost a proton attacks the positive carbon atom and forms a bond with it. So sulfuric acid bonds with the long fatty acid carbon chain making a brown crud material that is a polar molecule that will adhere to magnesium silicate solid, that can be filtered out of solution.

  2. #22
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    Re: bio diesel wash

    Hi Wesley
    Quote Originally Posted by WesleyB View Post
    I will try to explain it understandably. I was a cemistry tudor paid money by the government here to teach freshman first year college chemistry.
    That is interesting. Most of us are not first year chemistry students.



    A strong acid (sulfuric) produces a proton. A proton is a hydrogen atom without an electron accompanying it. Hydrogen gas occurs as two hydrogen atoms bonded to each other with two electrons shared between the two protons. Sulfuric acid has a central sulfur atom with four oxygen bonded to the center sulfur atom. Two of those oxygen atoms in the molecule are bonded to two hydrogen atoms. When one or both of those hydrogen atoms separate from the group of bonded, connected atoms that make the molecule of sulfuric acid then the disconnected part is a proton with a positive charge, but the larger group of bonded atoms Sulfur, 4 oxygens, 1 hydrogen are left with one positive charge (the proton) subtracted from the bonds being balanced so the molecule has as many protons as electrons. So the remaing ion structure is one positive charge (the proton that disconnected) short of the molecule having an equal number of negative charge electrons as positive charge protons. So sulfuric acid can lose two protons as an acid. Sulfuric acid is not the easiest strong acid to explain this with. But in a free fatty acid, some of the molecules have double bonds. That means a single bond directly between the two atoms nucleus, but the second bond is a phi bond that sticks out on the side along the long carbon chain of 12-22 carbon atoms. When a proton from sulfuric acid ionizes (disconnects) from sulfuric acid, electrophillic addition occurs on a fatty acid molecule with a double bond. The positive proton attacks the two electrons in the double bond between two carbon atoms in th e chain of carbons and forms a bond with one of the two carbons, which leaves the other carbon or the carbon next to it electron deficient, a positive charge. Then the negatively charged sulfuric acid ion that lost a proton attacks the positive carbon atom and forms a bond with it.
    This part does not have any meaning to me. I am not a chemist. My last chemistry class was in high school in about 1959.
    Because I do not understand what you are saying, I am not interested in the nitty gritty and intricacies of the chemical reactions involved with how you arrived at your answer.
    I suspect there are very few forum members who will understand it or even be able to read it easily. Please use paragraphs.





    So sulfuric acid bonds with the long fatty acid carbon chain making a brown crud material that is a polar molecule that will adhere to magnesium silicate solid, that can be filtered out of solution.
    This part is starting to make a bit of sense.
    What is this brown crud material that you refer to? Is it the product of the Oxidation that occurs when Concentrated H2SO4 comes into contact with organic material?


    A SUGGESTION
    I can tell you do have knowledge in chemistry.
    Most of the people in this forum are not chemists.

    When you answer a question by first going through a long drawn out explanation of all the chemical reactions that occurred or might possibly occur and also do not use paragraphs to present the information in a way that is easy to read, many people [such as me] will just turn off and stop reading.

    You should go and read some of Neutral's replies to people. He could answer 99.9% of questions asked him without explaining the chemical reactions involved.
    Neutral had an exceptional ability to explain chemistry to people who did not understand chemistry so they would understand it- or at least we thought we did.

    FOR INSTANCE
    In your most recent post all you needed to write was;

    "Sulfuric acid bonds with the long fatty acid carbon chain making a brown crud material that is a polar molecule that will adhere to magnesium silicate solid, that can be filtered out of solution."

    That is ALL you needed to say-
    Then it would not matter that you do not use paragraphs. You would have answered smithy's question and everyone would have understood what you were trying to say.
    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 4th March 2017 at 02:26 PM.

  3. #23
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    Re: bio diesel wash

    Wesley,
    I support what Tilly was trying to say.
    Basically, when talking chemistry to chemistry students or those with highre learning in chemistry, use your knowledge to explain fully.

    When talking to amateur / hobbyist veggies or biodiesel producers, please use the simplest explanation possible. That way, your post will get read and most likely will be understood by most readers.

    Your Chemistry lesson went way over my head, right at the start of your post, and I lost interest and stopped reading it.
    Had you responded with the sentence that Tilly gleaned from your post, I would have read that and understood the process to the extent that I needed to.
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    Toyota Camry Hybrid - (Wife's Car)

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 All body panels, headlights, interior engine and ECU available.


    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  4. #24
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    Re: bio diesel wash

    I was reading this thread, someone said cardboard put into concentrated sulfuric acid turns black. That's not the same reaction as biodiesel reacting with concentrated sulfuric acid. The long carbon chain fatty acids have an even number of carbons connected to each other in a long chain from 12 to 22 carbon atoms long to make the tail of the long fatty acid carbon/hydrogen chain, the head of the fatty acid is the same as the 1st carbon atom in vinegar, acetic acid. The difference in cardboard turning black and biodiesel darkening, is the sulfuric acid reacts with carbons in the fatty acid chain , but in the reaction with cellulose most of the reaction is probably with alcohol groups, oxygen bonded to hydrogen with the oxygen bonded (attached) to a carbon atom in a large carbon atom molecular structure (a polymer). Cardboard has a lot of cellulose in it which is a large , long molecule with carbon hydrogen and oxygen in it (a polymer). The cellulose has hydroxide, Oxygen bonded to hydrogen, an alcohol group where the oxygen is attached bonded to a carbon skeleton and the hydrogen is bonded attached to the oxygen atom. You might do a internet search for cellulose to see its molecular structure. An acid (sulfuric) reacts with an alcohol (cellulose) to produce an ester of sulfuric acid bonded to attached to one of the carbons in the carbon skeleton plus one water molecule. The cellulose with sulfuric acid bonded to it is black due to the presence of sulfur in the molecule (as best I know). Understanding why it's black is 4th year University chemistry, quantum mechanics, which I did not take that class.
    Last edited by WesleyB; 7th March 2017 at 06:35 AM.

  5. #25
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    Re: bio diesel wash

    Hi Wesley,

    Quote Originally Posted by WesleyB View Post
    I was reading this thread, someone said cardboard put into concentrated sulfuric acid turns black. That's not the same reaction as biodiesel reacting with concentrated sulfuric acid. The long carbon chain fatty acids have an even number of carbons connected to each other in a long chain from 12 to 22 carbon atoms long to make the tail of the long fatty acid carbon/hydrogen chain, the head of the fatty acid is the same as the 1st carbon atom in vinegar, acetic acid. The difference in cardboard turning black and biodiesel darkening, is the sulfuric acid reacts with carbons in the fatty acid chain , but in the reaction with cellulose most of the reaction is probably with alcohol groups, oxygen bonded to hydrogen with the oxygen bonded (attached) to a carbon atom in a large carbon atom molecular structure (a polymer). Cardboard has a lot of cellulose in it which is a large , long molecule with carbon hydrogen and oxygen in it (a polymer). The cellulose has hydroxide, Oxygen bonded to hydrogen, an alcohol group where the oxygen is attached bonded to a carbon skeleton and the hydrogen is bonded attached to the oxygen atom. You might do a internet search for cellulose to see its molecular structure. An acid (sulfuric) reacts with an alcohol (cellulose) to produce an ester of sulfuric acid bonded to attached to one of the carbons in the carbon skeleton plus one water molecule. The cellulose with sulfuric acid bonded to it is black due to the presence of sulfur in the molecule (as best I know). Understanding why it's black is 4th year University chemistry, quantum mechanics, which I did not take that class.
    I didn't understand what you posted. Because of the lack of paragraphs I found it extremely hard to read

  6. #26
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    Re: bio diesel wash

    Sulfuric acid used to make biodiesel reacts with carbon causing the brown darkened color. Sulfuric acid on cardboard reacts with an alcohol group connected to a carbon back bone. It's a different type of organic reaction.

  7. #27
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    Re: bio diesel wash

    Hi WesleyB,

    Quote Originally Posted by WesleyB View Post
    Sulfuric acid used to make biodiesel reacts with carbon causing the brown darkened color. Sulfuric acid on cardboard reacts with an alcohol group connected to a carbon back bone. It's a different type of organic reaction.
    I understand that.
    Thank you for clearing it up.

  8. #28
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    Re: bio diesel wash

    biopowered (UK) is up and running again, so as promised here is the thread about acid washing making the bio darker. The photo's are on post No 8.

    If any of the admins on here think it is more appropriate to have this subject within its own thread please feel free to move it.

    Dave.

    http://www.biopowered.co.uk/forum/in...pic,2906.0.htm

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