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Thread: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Sydney, NSW
    Posts
    189

    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    What's everyone's guess at what this is? From my sediment trap after about 3 years of no cleaning. I wash my fuel until it passed the shakemup test.

    I have been adding Chemtech Diesel Power as a biocide and I expect Tilly will have the MSDS for that stored somewhere and tell me it is snake oil.

    Assuming it is algae, what is the best biocide to use?

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    3DB
    1995 Holden (Isuzu) Rodeo 2.8TD 4X4 - B100 since April 2013
    1976 Mercedes 300D Turbo 'The Coal Grenade' - B100 since May 2016
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  2. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Lismore NSW
    Posts
    313

    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    It does look like algae residue to me, to answer the "whats the best...." question, don't know, I found a guy somewhere online he sells his super dooper stuff for $90 a bottle, claims it kills anything in your tank. I have used Chemtech too, however I am skeptical on how efficient it is as it is a readily available product. Matt used something rather radical when he had the bug, his chemistry mate said something along the lines, "don't want to know about it, be careful!" Apparently it sensitizes the skin on contact to any form of presents of it, since it is present in the air it could be quite challenging. However that's the stuff you want, it killed the bug dead dead dead he said with a grin on his face. :-)
    1990 Toyota Hilux LN106 with ATG 2 tank system (sold after running 150.000 ks on mainly WVO)
    1993 Toyota 75 Series with 1 HZ engine both 75l factory tanks and a custom 170l under tray tank.
    200.000km 80% on bio 10% on WVO 10% on dino,

    "him who never made a mistake, made no discovery either"


  3. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,075

    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    Another response from a WARFA member:
    When I leave glycerine in Biodiesel for long periods (in an overhead bowser, up to 6 months) I notice the last of the glycerine to come out is really sticky nasty stuff that does not make good hand wash at all!

    It is like trying to wash your hands in animal fat!
    My theory is that moisture in the air and tank drops to the bottom of the tank and super saturates the glycerine where it will no longer combine with water and is sticky and nasty!!
    Maybe this is the stuff tony is getting?


    However I find by leaving glycerine in Biodiesel for up to 3 months makes more Biodiesel separation from the glycerine occur to a higher extent and I don't lose as much draining out with the glycerine.



    I recently noticed my 1000 L Pod of waste glycerine had 800L of Glycerine and 200L ofBio deisel that wasn't in there before?????
    Was this Biodiesel that separated out of the glycerine over a couple of years?



    Who knows!

    My thoughts on this:
    I disagree with your supposition that the glycerol becomes super-saturated with water. This would thin the glycerol but should not stop it being soapy (residual caustic in the byproduct would still be present unless the biodiesel was washed.)
    I feel that it is more likely that the residual caustic in the byproduct is still reacting with the biodiesel and the byproduct of that reaction is the sticky tarry stuff.

    I have little chemistry knowledge and I bow to those whose chemistry can explain the tarry stuff.
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    Toyota Camry Hybrid - (Wife's Car)

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]



    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
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  4. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,075

    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    So far most of the posts are about unwashed biodiesel. Does anyone who washes their biodiesel have similar issues?
    Is the dropout a black tarry substance in this case?
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    Toyota Camry Hybrid - (Wife's Car)

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]



    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  5. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    York UK
    Posts
    63

    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    Over the years I have seen plenty of posts reporting glycerol dropping from biodiesel even after water washing. These have been from people that water wash in a 'meek and mild' way, either bubbling gently for a long time or misting. I have never been drawn to these methods simply because I don't think they are too good at glycerol removal.

    The most efficient way 'IMO' to water wash is to really blast it, I mean really blast it either with the pump or with a compressor. My soap level after 5 or so washes on a 200 litre batch with 8 litres of water per wash is usually <10ppm and I have never had a problem over the last 9 years with anything dropping out of the bio.

    Just a thought on a related subject here. I glycerol pre-treat my oil in a separate vessel. After a couple of days when nearly all the glycerol has settled I transfer the oil to a conical feed tank ready to go into the processor. The oil will sit in this tank for about 3 weeks. Every few months I run off more settled glycerol from the bottom tap, I actually did this yesterday and removed about 9 litres of 'glycerol', but it wasn't all glycerol. It was about 50/50 glycerol and something much lighter in colour that I would assume is soap. It seems that with time the glycerol and soap actually separate?

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Townsville, North Queensland
    Posts
    611

    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    I always water wash. Bubbling the first few washes then with a paint stirrer the last few washes.
    I have never had a problem with anything dropping out even when stored for a long time.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    York UK
    Posts
    63

    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    I would think the paint stirrer works well. If you have had the fuel stored for a long time and still nothing drops out then this is what we want to achieve.

    As regards those who just settle and filter, the catalyst used makes a big difference. I try to use sodium whenever possible but as I need liquid glycerol to pre wash, I'm restricted to only potassium in the winter. In summer I use a blend of both.

    From testing the soap levels on non demethed bio from each catalyst there is a massive difference.

    Using Sodium and testing ex process bio, cubied up and left for 10 days the level was 400ppm.
    With potassium I left some for 6 weeks and the soap was still >1500ppm.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    numurkah
    Posts
    507

    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    Hi Smithy just a question, at the end of the reaction just before i turn off the mixer, i throw in 1 % of water, wait for 5 seconds then turn the mixer off. This makes the soap clump together and sink to the bottom, you can see it form over a minute or so. Is this something that you do?

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    York UK
    Posts
    63

    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    Indeed it is. Here, we call it a 5% pre-wash. The idea is that on a 2 stage process where S2 converts something like the residual 20% oil, then the residual glycerol is assumed at something like 5% of the batch volume, hence the 5% water which creates a 50/50 water/glycerol mix.

    I process in a very strange manner which I won't go into here but my (assumed) glycerol amount in the mix after S2 is about 5 litres on a 200 litre batch size, so I add 5 litres of water, mix for about 10 mins and then bubble all night as the mix cools. The next day after settling a few hours the soap level is about 200ppm (half the amount compared with a conventional bubbling to demeth) I can then blast away with my water wash as aggressively as I want without fear of an emulsion.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    numurkah
    Posts
    507

    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    We might be doing something similar, my method goes
    1. dry and filter the oil
    2. heat to 50 degrees and throw in all the glcerol from the last reaction. mix and drain
    3. caustic striping and drain
    4. 1 stage methoxide with KOH and drain
    5. 2 stage methoxide with KOH
    6. 1% water added
    7. drain
    8. bubble dry for a week

    Ive have bee thinking of adding a bit more water but never tried it

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