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Thread: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,095

    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    Quote Originally Posted by 3DB View Post
    Smithy - that article is interesting, but a lot to digest. I will work on that.

    Tony - what are the risks of going for a very concentrated solution of either methanol or turps to clean your pump? I have been thinking about the same using my Facet pump to cycle a solution through the IP while the engine is off.
    I imagine that there may be some degradation of the fuel lines if the high concentration MeOH was in the system for a long time. I doubt that the impact using a low concentration would be significant. So, if planning to do the 'shock dose' (10% MeOH), that it be done in a short time-frame to minimise impact on hoses.
    I can't do it with the engine off, unless I leave the ignition on, as the shut down valve prevents circulation thru the IP when Ign. is Off.
    Aside from the fact that it is highly flammable and toxic to humans, what are the other risks using methanol in this manner? Is it likely to damage hoses or nitrile or Viton seals in the pump in concentrated form? Assuming you flushed it afterwards with biodiesel to ensure no significant quantities of methanol make it into the combustion chamber, would it be ok?

    What about turps? Better or worse?

    And what about a residual maintenance dose added to the fuel on an ongoing basis to keep the TS dissolved. Similar to a 10% addition of ULP? What would be a safe % of methanol to try?

    Is there a risk of dislodging a heap of TS that has been accumulating in the fuel tank over the years and sending a big plug of it towards the IP? Hopefully the sediment trap and filter would catch it?
    This last point is one of concern with a 'shock dose'. What we need is someone who has an issue with the TS to try a shock dose to see what happens. I don't do many Km in my car, so a 'Shock dose' would sit in my fuel tank too long for my liking. I will try a 'maintenance dose' of 1% in my biodiesel.
    How can I tell if it works?
    Someone who has a sedimenter (aka TS trap) might like to see what happens to the TS when a 10% solution is pumped thru an impacted TS Trap. Does the level of TS drop with the 10% solution being pumped thru it?

    Any volunteers?
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    Toyota Camry Hybrid - (Wife's Car)

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 All body panels, headlights, interior engine and ECU available.


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  2. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Sydney, NSW
    Posts
    195

    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    A bio friend experimented on his ute with 100% methanol yesterday (I assume he still on the road today!?).

    "It is clear that the non-return valve on Facet pumps are a choke point for crud .
    I unscrewed the hexagonal assembly on the input side. it has a small spring closed plastic button mounted in a brass cage that has space around for
    fuel passage , not much room. Bit of brown gunk in there , probable cause of fuel starvation at hiway cruising that i got last bush trip . I fitted the pre-filter to the Facet input as a precaution.
    Maybe switching on the facet when things get sluggish/missing , is dislodging the crud which then sticks in the (main ) filter.

    I also pumped a bit of fuel up the line - quite cloudy and dark . I did a biocide dose Friday which may be something to do with that .

    I also pumped 600ml methanol thru IP . Came out without lumps or flakes , but was brownish. May just be residual fuel , although I mouth-blew most out prior.
    I left meth in for just 10 minutes - maybe an overnight soak would be best."

    He has temporarily removed his sediment trap though.
    3DB
    1995 Holden (Isuzu) Rodeo 2.8TD 4X4 - B100 since April 2013
    1976 Mercedes 300D Turbo 'The Coal Grenade' - B100 since May 2016
    (@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,095

    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    It would be good to have an IP which is suspected of having some TS in it, opened and inspected (and take 'before' photos). Than run it with a high % Methanol/Biodiesel blend for a week before opening the IP and inspecting it (and take 'after' photos to compare with the before photos).
    Do we have any volunteers for the study?
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    Toyota Camry Hybrid - (Wife's Car)

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 All body panels, headlights, interior engine and ECU available.


    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  4. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Sydney, NSW
    Posts
    195

    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    Here's a good read on 'algae' in diesel as it relates to boats. Sounds like algae is actually bacteria....I had wondered how algae would photosynthesise inside a dark fuel tank....

    I see some similarities in the descriptions of the 'algae' to TS here

    http://www.boatcoachbob.com/articles...-diesel-algae/
    Last edited by 3DB; 1st April 2017 at 09:36 PM.
    3DB
    1995 Holden (Isuzu) Rodeo 2.8TD 4X4 - B100 since April 2013
    1976 Mercedes 300D Turbo 'The Coal Grenade' - B100 since May 2016
    (@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    In the sunshine state.
    Posts
    853

    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    That is not algae, if you get algae let me assure you, you will know it/.

    Being organic the algae will live all through biodiesel feeding on water in it and make a very awful mess of the complete fuel system leaving a resin like deposit that sticks to everything. There are several types but the one I had left orange resin in two cars. The material given to me is a very toxic to it and is used in water purification at very reduced levels but at minimal levels it will klll algae and leave it as a sand type material as it kills individual organisms (as experienced in the fuel filter bowel. I was advised to not get it on skin as it will almost permanently hypersensitise you to it, given its prevalent in the air this is not good. I have a 20 litre bottle of it and 1ml in 10ml of methylated spirits does the job nicely. Kept safe under the shed so the truck is back on bio.
    Biodiesel Bandit

    Landcruiser '98 80 series B100.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    128

    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    Quote Originally Posted by 3DB View Post
    Maybe it is algae then? I have a sample and just need a microscope to have a look. I have a mate that studies Antarctic moss for a living - maybe I'll send it to him.
    I knew the stuff I had was algal because of its response to caustic soda. If you treat black mould in your shower recess with oven cleaner (caustic soda) it lifts off the surface and assumes a gelatinous consistency. The stuff in my Frantz and fuel tank behaved in exactly the same way. In my tank it just lifted away from the steel and I just reached in with my hand and lifted it out as a single sheet.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,095

    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    Mark,
    Questions:
    How does microbial sludge respond to caustic soda, compared to algal sludge?
    Doesn't algae need sunlight to form?
    Why?
    Regards,
    Tony
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    Toyota Camry Hybrid - (Wife's Car)

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 All body panels, headlights, interior engine and ECU available.


    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  8. #38
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    numurkah
    Posts
    521

    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    I serviced My 405 pug today and it had a black tar like substances in the bottom of the fuel filter housing (again) . Ive got 3 other vehicles that run on bio and this is the only one that produces this black crap. I have flushed the IP in the past and not got much crap out of it, and I have struggled in the past to clean the filter house with petrol, metho, and isoprop alcohol, so just out of interest i cleaned the filter housing with methanol. It did a great job and dissolved this stuff really well. So Im going to flush the IP out with methanol and see what happens, probably this weekend.
    Ill report back, with the results

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    In the sunshine state.
    Posts
    853

    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    This most lilkely is tar from old mineral fuel, not bug. Given the Pug 405 age it will have run on the dirty stuff and this is what drops out of it. When I first started on Bio I kept a sample of the fuel int he tank, guess what dropped out of it, tar, I have experienced bug too in the bio which is a lot worse than anything you are facing, Enjoy,
    Biodiesel Bandit

    Landcruiser '98 80 series B100.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    128

    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    How does microbial sludge respond to caustic soda, compared to algal sludge?
    Doesn't algae need sunlight to form?
    Why?
    I don't know whether it was "microbial" or "algal" - I don't know enough about microbiology to classify it. All I know is that it was biological in nature. There are thousands, possibly millions, of bacteria that can make thousands, possibly millions, types of biomass - some anaerobic, some aerobic, some autotrophic, some heterotrophic etc atc etc

    And as for its response to caustic, it's entirely empirical. If you spray oven cleaner onto the mould (biomass) in your shower, it will just lift off and can be wiped away. No idea what's happening at a molecular level

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