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Thread: The Imsides method

  1. #11
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    Re: Reduced oil temperature in reactor ?

    Hi WesleyB

    I make soap too!!

    Indeed, the Imisides method MIGHT be advantageous in any number of ways.
    The problem is that to date no one has ever presented any meaningful testing that demonstrates it has any advantage over the methods now in use.
    I am assuming you have not performed any meaningful testing with the method and are just speculating what some of the benefits might be

    Several thing come to mind when discussing water in the reaction.
    NaOH typically contains less than 1% water while KOH typically contains 10%- 15% water, I have never seen anyone complain about having a reduced yield using KOH.

    Also, many years ago there was a procedure that was popular called Cons Aqueous NaOH (Concentrated Aqueous NaOH).
    This involved mixing the NaOH with an equal weight of water and then mixing that into the Methanol
    That ended up putting 6ml- 10ml of water into the reaction for every litre of WVO being reacted.
    That is a huge amount of water compared to the amount of water that might be produced when mixing NaOH/ KOH with methanol.

    I used the Cons Aquous method until I changed over to using KOH.
    Testing I did showed that using the Cons Aqueous method resulted in about a 1% reduction in yield by volume compared to not using the method.
    The Chemist Neutral was not at all a supporter of the procedure and did some testing. He was quite amazed at how much soap was not produced using the Cons Aqueous method- "The loss is not as great as certain vocal critics asserted however, being less than 2% under typical conditions."

    That tends to show that water in the reaction is probably not as big a problem as most people think it is.

    I would love to see some well thought out testing performed using the above Imisides procedure
    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 31st August 2017 at 06:19 PM. Reason: Tidy things up

  2. #12
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    Re: Reduced oil temperature in reactor ?

    Hi Tilly, I'm assuming the advantage to the cons aqueous method is that the NaOH dissolves faster in water.

    I have used reclaimed methanol that contained 1% water and found a yield loss of only 2 to 3 litres (compared to virgin) in a 200 litre batch.

  3. #13
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    Re: Reduced oil temperature in reactor ?

    Tilly from Paradise, One of the smartest men I've met said, "the problem in science is not answering the (chemistry) question , but it's asking the right question". He was a theoretical chemist who did probability chemistry experiments on computer. So Tilly, how would you propose that the Imisides method be compared to plain transesterification reaction, one stage system, to show advantage?

  4. #14
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    Re: Reduced oil temperature in reactor ?

    Hi Wesley,
    One of the smartest men I have met said: "Never play another man's game"

    Quote Originally Posted by WesleyB View Post
    So Tilly, how would you propose that the Imisides method be compared to plain transesterification reaction, one stage system, to show advantage?
    There seem to be several advantages claimed for the method. Which advantage do you wish to test for first?

    PS One of the main claim seems to be that the Imisides method will make biodiesel at room temperature whereas the other procedures require heating.
    As people have been producing biodiesel at room temperature for the last 15- 20 years using the single stage base method, I do not think we need to do much testing for that one
    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 2nd September 2017 at 02:55 PM.

  5. #15
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    Re: Reduced oil temperature in reactor ?

    I would want to test rapidity of reaction of new corn oil comparing potassium hydroxide transesterification with the Imisides method using potassium hydroxide at room temperature. A problem in producing synthetic fuel fuel (biodiesel) is how much energy is used to achieve a product versus how much energy is obtained when burning the fuel. If heating might be eliminated while still achieving a rapid reaction rate then at least for new corn oil with a titration of 0.6 (sodium hydroxide) that might be considered an advantage. New oil has low free fatty acid content and a minimal amount of calcium soap woul;d be produced. I only have one magnetic stirrer not two, to react them side by side.

  6. #16
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    Re: Reduced oil temperature in reactor ?

    WesleyB
    You could use a timer (mobile phone would do) and take samples of the reactants at specific time intervals. Repeat for the other method.
    Record time temperature and conversion rate for each process for each sample.
    Not too hard. At least you have one magnetic stirrer. Most of us have none.

    Question: How would you stop the reaction of a sample so that the time since taking the sample does not impact oh the conversion rate?
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    Toyota Camry Hybrid - (Wife's Car)

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]



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  7. #17
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    Re: Reduced oil temperature in reactor ?

    Hi Wesley,
    Quote Originally Posted by WesleyB View Post
    A problem in producing synthetic fuel fuel (biodiesel) is how much energy is used to achieve a product versus how much energy is obtained when burning the fuel.
    If heating might be eliminated while still achieving a rapid reaction rate then at least for new corn oil with a titration of 0.6 (sodium hydroxide) that might be considered an advantage.
    You also have to take into consideration both the time and energy cost to produce the calcium oxide used in this extra Imisidies drying step along with any added mixing and pumping and filtering required which is not necessary with standard base transesterification




    If heating might be eliminated while still achieving a rapid reaction rate then at least for new corn oil with a titration of 0.6 (sodium hydroxide) that might be considered an advantage.
    According to smithy he achieves a complete reaction using the base only method in an hour at 5deg C. How much faster and colder do you want to go?
    Also remember that Mark Imisides specifically does not test conversion as he thinks it is a meaningless test.
    All we know about his results is that he has separation- nothing about conversion quality
    I am sure you will be able to figure out some tests to sort this out.

  8. #18
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    Re: Reduced oil temperature in reactor ?

    I will do it. I believe I have calcium oxide here. It might take me a month. I'll have to straighten this place up some. I have not made biodiesel at my current room temperature of 22 degrees celcius before, without heating. I will post results .

  9. #19
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    Re: Reduced oil temperature in reactor ?

    WesleyB, you could also repeat the tests during your winter, (so the oil is at a much lower temperature) and compare the results.
    Thanks for the research. Looking forward to your results.
    Last edited by Tony From West Oz; 5th September 2017 at 05:52 PM. Reason: Added reason for winter test
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    Toyota Camry Hybrid - (Wife's Car)

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]



    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  10. #20
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    Re: Reduced oil temperature in reactor ?

    I did an experiment. I treated new corn oil with Magnesol with stirring while heating the oil. Decanted off the new corn oil through a paper filter. Treated again with technical grade magnesium silicate. The titration of the oil was zero. Pored through a paper filter in vacuum, filtration. Heated the new oil for one hour at above 100 degrees centigrade to boil off water with stirring. Into a 250 milliliter round bottom boiling flask put 40 milliliters of methanol, 1.5 grams potassium hydroxide, 1 gram calcium oxide and a magnetic teflon stir bar. Stirred 20 minutes. Added 160 milliliters Magnesol treated new corn oil. Did fast stirring ten minutes. Allowed to settle. 45 minutes later Poured through a 54 coarse filter paper in vacuum filtration. Two hours after I first mixed the chemicals did a 10/28 test, I got 6.1 milliliters of fallout (lower layer). If there was no reaction there would be 10 milliliters of vegetable oil fallout. There is a glycerine layer in the biodiesel in my storage bottle. All this was done at my room temperature of 23 degrees celcius.

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