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Thread: The Imsides method

  1. #91
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    Re: The Imsides method

    I think your conclusions are generally correct Tilly. However I did perform some water tests on KOH methoxide before and after being dried by CaO some time ago. I can't remember offhand which forum I posted the results on. I will try to find them.

    As you mentioned in para 3 of your post NaOH does seem to give a better yield (not only does it contain less water than KOH but as the reqd amount is roughly 1.4 times less then the water produced is 1.4 times less)
    I have used methanol containing approx 1% water for the methoxide and noticed a reduction in yield of only 2% max. However the closer we can get to an anhydrous process the closer we can get to the magic 104% yield. The big question is "is it worth the extra time and effort'?

  2. #92
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    Re: The Imsides method

    Hi smithy,

    Quote Originally Posted by smithy View Post
    However the closer we can get to an anhydrous process the closer we can get to the magic 104% yield.
    The 104% yield by volume will only be available with unused oil.
    FFA's are converted into soap not biodiesel when transesterfying WVO

  3. #93
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    Re: The Imsides method

    Indeed, one of the reasons I glycerol pre-treat.

  4. #94
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    Re: The Imsides method

    Hi smithy,

    Quote Originally Posted by smithy View Post
    Indeed, one of the reasons I glycerol pre-treat.
    I often wonder whether you really do not understand this.

    You are performing a two stage reaction
    Your "Glycerol pre-treat" is the first stage reaction.
    In this first stage reaction the FFA's are converted into soap and some transesterfication occurs
    The soap and glycerine produced during this first stage reaction then settles out along with the glycerine you added to do the first stage reaction and is removed.

    I understand that you then put the remaining partially reacted biodiesel back into a large container and pretend it is still WVO instead of partially reacted biodiesel.
    You then fill your reactor to the top again with partially reacted biodiesel from this larger container to perform a second stage reaction, but you tell people you are performing a first stage reaction on WVO.
    Of course no further soap is produced in the second stage through nutralization of FFA's because You have already converted the FFA's into soap in the first stage and then removed them with the glycerol.

    There is no magic involved with what you do. Your first stage reaction is producing soap which is removed along with the glycerine and you are losing yield whether you pretend you are or not
    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 12th November 2017 at 10:01 AM.

  5. #95
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    Re: The Imsides method

    Something you didn't mention Tilly is pretreating vegetable oil with glycerine is ffa's hydrogen bond with glycerine as part of why they go into the glycerine layer and are to an extent removed. It's similar to pretreating with magnesium silicate. The head of the carbon chain is polar (carboxylic acid) the tail is non-polar. The head of the free fatty acid chain hydrogen bonds to the glycerine molecule in the lower layer and to an extent can be removed. Not all the free fatty acids are necessarily becoming soap. It's also a pretreat.
    Last edited by WesleyB; 13th November 2017 at 02:19 AM.

  6. #96
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    Re: The Imsides method

    Hi wesley,

    Quote Originally Posted by WesleyB View Post
    pretreating vegetable oil with glycerine is ffa's hydrogengen bond
    The pretreatment included more than just glycerine. There is also methoxide in the mix.
    What he is calling a pretreatment is a base transesterification reaction




    Not all the free fatty acids are necessarily becoming soap.
    Just so I understand what you are saying.
    Do you mean that in a base transesterification reaction not all the FFA's are converted into soap?
    Some of them are bound in the glycerine instead of being converted into soap?
    That is the first time I have heard that claimed.
    Why doesn't the methoxide in the glycerine convert the FFA's in the glycerine into soap?

    Not to be rude, but lately you have come up with some very strange chemistry notions that do not hold up under closer examination
    You should probably go check that out again.

    Still, no matter how the FFA's are removed from the reaction, whether they are converted into soap or bound with the glycerine, they are removed and do not become biodiesel and that results in a lowered yield.
    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 12th November 2017 at 06:45 PM.

  7. #97
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    Re: The Imsides method

    Tilly, I know there is no Magic, but when the glycerol pre-treatment is so easy to do, why would I want to try to convert WVO 'as is' When I can remove ffa's and water so easily, making the oil convert as if it were new.

    I found the water test results for the CaO drying regarding the Imisides method; (you know Tilly, the results you said no one had ever done)

    400mls of reclaimed methanol with a water content of 2600ppm plus 50gms of KOH gave a water content of 3.12% (31200 ppm)

    100gms of CaO was added and the mix shaken for 10 mins, after settling the water content was measured again at 0.42% (4200ppm )

    A reduction in water of 85%

  8. #98
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    Re: The Imsides method

    Hi smithy,

    Quote Originally Posted by smithy View Post
    Tilly, I know there is no Magic, but when the glycerol pre-treatment is so easy to do, why would I want to try to convert WVO 'as is' When I can remove ffa's and water so easily, making the oil convert as if it were new.
    Do whatever you want, but do not post misleading information.
    Do not tell people you are doing one thing while you are actually doing something entirely different.
    Do not describe how you performed a second stage reaction on partially reacted biodiesel and tell people it was a first stage reaction on WVO.
    Do not call the second stage reaction the first stage reaction.

    Ii is hard to tell when what you are saying is true or just something you are saying for whatever reason you frequently post inaccurate or misleading information.

    The idea on the forum is to share accurate information to help people make biodiesel.

    Jon Heron on the infopop biodiesel forum summed the situation up quite well when he said to you:
    "I appreciate your effort here but you consistently get results that no one else can achieve due to unknown circumstances, because of this your results dont hold much weight."

    Right now, about the only thing I can be sure of when you post information is that your internet connection is working.
    Become a reliable source of information
    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 13th November 2017 at 09:45 AM.

  9. #99
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    Re: The Imsides method

    It is ridiculous to call a glycerol pre-wash a !st stage. That would imply that only methoxide was added.

    Jon Heron seemed to be annoyed that I managed to convert oil to bio by using only 3.5gmsKOH/litre by using a 7 stage process.

    if we are allowed to use quotes from people on other forums to try to discredit members on here, I would be careful Tilly. I WILL RISE ABOVE IT AT THE MOMENT.

  10. #100
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    Re: The Imsides method

    Hi smithy,

    Quote Originally Posted by smithy View Post
    It is ridiculous to call a glycerol pre-wash a !st stage. That would imply that only methoxide was added.
    That is incorrect.
    Calling it the first stage acknowledges the fact that you have added methoxide and performed the first stage reaction.



    Jon Heron seemed to be annoyed that I managed to convert oil to bio by using only 3.5gmsKOH/litre by using a 7 stage process.
    I do not remember you making that claim.
    I would have thought it would be "touch and go" to achieve separation when reaction oil with just 3.5g KOH in a single stage, especially if you were reacting WVO.
    And you achieved separation in all seven stages with a total of just 3.5g KOH spread over the whole 7 stages
    That is pretty impressive.
    Or was that an additional 7 stages of reaction after performing a glycerol pre-wash first stage or possibly an enhanced glycerol pre-wash first stage?
    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 13th November 2017 at 08:20 AM.

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