The Imsides method

[tillyfromparadise]

Hi smithy,

Jon Heron seemed to be annoyed that I managed to convert oil to bio by using only 3.5gmsKOH/litre by using a 7 stage process.

You did no such thing.

It is exactly this type of inaccurate nonsense that you are continually posting that I am talking about.

I went back and had a look at what you were claiming and you were not talking about oil. You were talking about partially reacted biodiesel. You had already performed at least one stage of reaction.

Of course you call your first stage of reaction a “Glycerol pre-wash” and for some reason do not count it as a stage of reaction. You almost never include the chemicals contained in this first stage when you tell people the quantities of chemicals used in a reaction.

I have no idea why you continually post inaccurate and misleading information.

[WesleyB]

Smithy I think it's being ignored that glycerol strips used oil of free fatty acids and some water. There is residual catalyst and methanol in the glycerine. I will get some used vegetable oil and test if USP glycerine (only) lowers the titration number. Usually I experiment with new vegetable oil or palm kernel flakes or unused free fatty acids to minimize other factors. I made soap a few times, on purpose. It takes days or weeks to completely react, not the few minutes that Smithy does a glycerine pretreat.

[tillyfromparadise]

Hi Wesley,

Smithy I think it's being ignored that glycerol strips used oil of free fatty acids and some water.

That is a interesting idea.
So if the glycerol is actually stripping most of the free fatty acids from the WVO instead of them being neutralized into soap by the KOH as all the books say, that means there is actually more KOH available for the transesterification reaction on the WVO.
That means the transesterification reaction actually goes farther during this stage than it would if all the free fatty acids were being neutralized by the KOH.
I would have never thought of that

..not the few minutes that Smithy does a glycerine pretreat.

How many minutes does smithy do his "pre-treat"?

[WesleyB]

Free fatty acids don't react with caustic immediately like inorganic reactions do. Some soap forms but it takes time for it all to react.

[smithy]

Hi smithy,

As always Tilly you will go to the ends of the Earth to try and discredit me. I never made any claims that the multi stage process was done without any pre-treatment. Jon Heron could have done the same thing with probably the same outcome.

For those on here who want to know exactly what we are talking about the post is here;

posted December 21, 2014 04:59 AM Hide Post posted December 20, 2014 03:49 PM For a while now I have been experimenting with the minimum amount of catalyst required to achieve complete conversion. My first few tests resulted in KOH amounts between 5.2 and 4.0 gms KOH/litre after glycerol pre-treating (with no KOH added to the glycerol) After the 4.0 result it was obvious that to try and obtain a 'minimum' result then more stages would be required. Including the pre-wash (lets call this stage one) the 4.0 result needed 4 stages. Another thought is that I feel that there is more residual catalyst left in the glycerol than most of us realise. Before I start the description of the process, I am not advocating this as a practical proposition. It is not energy efficient and certainly requires a lot more work, It's really a result of my over enquiring mind. I used 80 litres of oil that titrated at only 1.3 I pre-treated this with 30 litres of glycerol. This glycerol had no added KOH, however it had 3 litres of added methanol. The pre-treatment was at 55 degs and mixed for a long time- 2 1/2 hours. I conducted a 10/90 where the dropout was 8.8 mls (12% conversion) The next 5 stages were all at 60degs for 1 hour and were as follows; 130gms KOH 3.2 mls dropout. 80 gms 0.8 mls 30 gms 0.4 mls 20 gms 0.2 mls 20 gms zero This total of 280gms equates to 3.5 gms/litre. Now, the big question, How much KOH was removed from the glycerol during pre-treatment. From testing I have done, I came up with the following figures. 72 gms of KOH would be reqd to neutralise the FFA's, and 38 gms would be be reqd for the 12% conversion. A total of 110 gms. So 30 litres of the glycerol I used contained at least 110 gms KOH. Thats 3.7 gms /litre. I would consider this a large amount. So the result for complete conversion was; 3.5 gms/litre of actual KOH flake used. 4.88gms/litre including KOH extracted from glycerol. 6 stages over 3 days,I won't be doing another one of these soon! Before someone asks, from tests I have done previously I have found that 100 litres of oil that titrated at 1.3 required 90 gms of KOH to neutralise. (this is where the 72gm figure came from)

You did no such thing.

It is exactly this type of inaccurate nonsense that you are continually posting that I am talking about.

I went back and had a look at what you were claiming and you were not talking about oil. You were talking about partially reacted biodiesel. You had already performed at least one stage of reaction.

Of course you call your first stage of reaction a “Glycerol pre-wash” and for some reason do not count it as a stage of reaction. You almost never include the chemicals contained in this first stage when you tell people the quantities of chemicals used in a reaction.

I have no idea why you continually post inaccurate and misleading information.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had to rake around the VOD forum to find it, a thread called 'second stage overdose' I'm sure you remember the one, Tilly. It's the thread you and your 'sock puppets' contributed to and because of your bad behavior you were BANNED from posting on the main forum.

[tillyfromparadise]

Hi smithy,

I am glad to see that you are acknowledging that you did not "convert oil to bio by using only 3.5gmsKOH/litre by using a 7 stage process".
You are making progress!

With any luck you will stop posting false and misleading information

[tillyfromparadise]

Hi smithy,

Tilly... why would I want to try to convert WVO 'as is' When I can remove ffa's and water so easily, making the oil convert as if it were new.

Another incorrect statement.

If you were reacting new oil, it would require more chemicals than you continually claim to be using.
You tell people that you are using anywhere between 10%- 12% methanol to achieve a full conversion.
That is simply not possible to do no matter what type of reaction you are using and what type of oil you are using.
The stoichiometric amount of methanol required for the reaction is about 12.5%
You will never achieve a full conversion using only the quantities of methanol you claim to be using

This is not a stoichiometric reaction, it is an equilibrium reaction. That means it requires additional methanol to be present in the reaction to insure a complete reaction occurs.
it will take an absolute minimum of 16% methanol per litre of oil to perform a single stage reaction that reached full conversion.

The only way you will achieve full conversion using the amounts of methanol you claim to be using is if you are performing the second stage of a two stage reaction and not including the methanol that was used in the first stage reaction.
That is exactly what you are doing.

You perform a first stage reaction that you pretend is not a first stage reaction so you never mention the chemicals used in your first stage reaction.
You them perform a second stage reaction which you call the first stage reaction and only mention the chemicals used in this second stage.

Do you really think that anyone who has any experience in making biodiesel believes you

[WesleyB]

I've found something a little odd. I tried Smithy's glycerol stripping using pure pharmacy bought glycerine. I heated the used vegetable oil to 110 degrees centigrade. No water boiled out. I let the 200 milliliters of Used Vegetable Oil cool some, then added 50 millilters of pure glycerine. I heated with magnetic stirring up to 85 degrees centigrade. Then shut down heating and magnetic stirring. After about 5 minutes 3 layers formed, not two. The middle (phase) layer maybe free fatty acids with glycerine increased concentration (that's a guess). Not two layers , three layers.

[WesleyB]

I tested glycerol free fatty acid stripping of used vegetable oil. The Used Vegetable Oil titrated at 15 drops that's a titration number of 15/24 milliliters. I treated the U.V.O. with 25% pure glycerol heat and stirring. Afterwards the titration number was the same as best I could measure it. Glycerol stripping probably relies on removing soap with glycerine, not free fatty acids.

[tillyfromparadise]

Hi wesley,

I've found something a little odd. I tried Smithy's glycerol stripping using pure pharmacy bought glycerine.

Smithy is not doing glycerol stripping using pure pharmacy bought glycerine.
He is performing a first stage reaction that contains large quantities of methoxide + byproduct from a different reaction.

I recommend you try testing what smithy is actually doing, it would be more meaningful

I tested glycerol free fatty acid stripping of used vegetable oil. The Used Vegetable Oil titrated at 15 drops that's a titration number of 15/24 milliliters. I treated the U.V.O. with 25% pure glycerol heat and stirring. Afterwards the titration number was the same as best I could measure it.

Why am I not surprised