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Thread: washing with heat

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Brisbane (North Side)
    Posts
    724

    Re: washing with heat

    Thanks for the great info Wesley, But I wont be pulling a vacuum on it as the vessel is way to hard to seal.

    I have an abundance of electrical power courtesy of my solar installation so I think I will just boil it off.

    I started a little experiment yesterday but I got interrupted, so I will have to start again.

    here is what I noticed in yesterday's incomplete test:

    1Kg of Bio in a saucepan on BBQ

    initially it was cloudy after coming out of pump (had to prime pump so it still had some air in it when I pushed it through - hence the cloudy nature), but clarified quite quickly over heat. To be expected.

    Then at bang on 65 degrees the most minute bubbles I have ever seen started to appear. They obviously increased with increase in temp (as per what you said about being mixed with higher boiling point substances).

    Interestingly once over 100 degrees, there was visible vapour coming off the bio, and teh bubbles started to coalesce and increase in size with a soap like reflective sheen to them. I can only put this down to the water that is created in the brew mixing with the present residual soap. now there certainly wasnt a lot, just a few here and there on the surface.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    glycerine started to drop out really quickly. I didnt measure it in any way, but there was a considerable portion of teh bottom of teh saucepan covered in glycerine within about 20 mins of being on heat.

    I let my glycerine settle out of the brew for a week in the mixer before i transfer my fuel to my storage tanks, and then after it comes out of my storage tanks it goes through a glycerine trap I made, then through my golden rod filter. I can honestly say that the glycerine that settled out was not already separated from the bio when I put it in the saucepan.

    I probably wont find time this weekend to do it properly, but I will post results when I get them done.
    Regards,

    Cade.

    2006 Landcruiser HDJ100 (1HD-FTE) 20,000 on bio
    2006 Ford Courier(WLT Motor), 10,000 on bio
    2002 Landcruiser HZJ105r (1HZ motor) 250,000 on bio (sold)
    2006 Mazda B2500 (WLT motor) 80,000 on bio (sold)



  2. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,197

    Re: washing with heat

    Cade,
    Keep up the good work.
    Once you have this one completed, perhaps you could do a test on the already settled and filtered biodiesel, for comparison.
    Tony
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP)


    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 SOLD.
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).


    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  3. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    York UK
    Posts
    117

    Re: washing with heat

    Cade, when you return the saucepan to the kitchen, don't tell the Mrs what you have been doing with it!

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Fort Worth, Texas, USA
    Posts
    281

    Re: washing with heat

    Methanol is miscible in biodiesel and glycerine. So demething allows the glycerine in the biodiesel that's dissolved in the methanol to separate. I expect soap also falls out, so the resulting soap level will be lower. Someone years ago on biodiesel Ireland demethed, let it settle, getting a lowered soap content as indicated by soap content tests. A dry wash after settling for a week a month or longer might be in order.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Brisbane (North Side)
    Posts
    724

    Re: washing with heat

    I just popped out to the shed in between tasks and weighed the brew left in the saucepan. Now a lot of things went wrong with this little attempt so its rather meaningless, but the bio mixture with all drop out poured back in together measured 30 grams lighter on 1000 grams initial measure. so that means that I removed 3% of the initial weight of the brew as water and methanol.

    I would estimate that the amount of glycerine in the bottom was less than or around 1ml.

    I will do again properly from start to finish with as many variables as I can controlled, and then repeat to confirm. it wont be for a week or to though. I am coming up to the end of my study so its head down and bum up at the moment!
    Regards,

    Cade.

    2006 Landcruiser HDJ100 (1HD-FTE) 20,000 on bio
    2006 Ford Courier(WLT Motor), 10,000 on bio
    2002 Landcruiser HZJ105r (1HZ motor) 250,000 on bio (sold)
    2006 Mazda B2500 (WLT motor) 80,000 on bio (sold)



  6. #36
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    162

    Re: washing with heat

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris66 View Post
    Re: washing with heat

    'Luckily for you I am a Chemist, unlike anyone else on this forum.'

    I think you need to pull your head out of your arse.
    Sorry, you've lost me. What is the purpose of this post?

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    162

    Re: washing with heat

    Quote Originally Posted by smithy View Post
    Since we started to lock horns Tilly on various forums, all you have ever done is belittle any tests or experiments I have ever done. You may try to play the great god on this forum but you don't know everything.

    Have a look at my rider on your warnqvist test thread and you will see what I mean.

    Sorry to other forum members for throwing this thread off topic but I do get really cheesed off with this guy.
    You are right. He's not a chemist and a substantial amount of what he says is wrong. I stopped reading his posts years ago.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Brisbane (North Side)
    Posts
    724

    Re: washing with heat

    Well I decided to revive my train of thought on this one. I thought I would push the boundaries a little with the temperature, and found something very interesting (to me anyway).

    I put 100ml of unwashed freshly batched bio in a saucepan and put it on my bbq wok burner. heres what i noticed:

    * at around 60 degrees or so, there was visible vapour starting. no surprises - I would assume its the methanol leaving the brew.
    * approaching 100 degrees the edges of the fuel started to boil here and there - ever so tiny little bubbles. also no surprises there - just the water left over from the reaction leaving town.
    * now it starts to get interesting. the fuel started showing ripples under the surface (you could see them as the light was refracting differently) and they sort of woft around. they remained present the whole time from then on.
    * somewhere around 130 degrees (hard to tell as the temperature of the pan fluctuated big time depending on where in the pan I took my reading) it started to change colour slightly.
    * somewhere between 150 and 180 degrees it went a nice treacle brown. heating stopped at this point.

    now its even more interesting - there are a heap of floaties that are in suspension all through the fuel, and its that lovely treacle brown colour. I then took this heated fuel and put 20ml of water in it - applied with a hand pump sprayer on fine mist - and let to settle. I did a second one with non heated fuel to compare.

    So I wanted to see this process again, so I repeated and got the same results. I ran this fuel while it was hot through a 2 micron filter and the clarity was exceptional. I left this to cool on its own.

    I repeated a third time and viola, around 180 degrees it goes brown and floaties appear. I cooled this one in some ice water to get it back to room temp, and the floaties remained in suspension. I then filtered it, and once again the clarity was exceptional. I left all of this over night. note - I also filtered some un heated fresh bio to compare - and the clarity was also very good.

    next day, the washed fuel samples are starting to clear, and as expected are not completely washed, so they are not very clear.

    both of the heated samples - cold filtered and hot filtered are showning some drop out, which is not present in the un heated control.

    the cold filtered fuel is crazy clear. when I put a LED torch under it and shine it up through it, you would expect to see a shaft of light, but you dont, as there is nothing in suspension to pick up the light. very impressed. The next little experiment will to be do a wash on it and see if it is any different to the first heated but unfiltered washed sample.

    so if the heating does appear to perform the same function as washing, I am thinking of making the following rig:

    build a turk burner outside my shed, and plumb a copper line from the bio brewer to it with a small 12v pump on the cold side with a bypass and valve so I can regulate the flow. Pass the fuel through the turk burner in a copper coil, and then send back to the tank. install a digital temp gauge to monitor the output temp. I should be able to regulate the temp by adjusting the flow. find someway of working out the flow rate and then try to make this predictable at each batch so i can then just run the pump for a period of time, allowing for say 3 changes of tank volume.

    after this its just a case of running off any sediment and filtering the fuel. I reason that the sediment should drop out regardless of filtering, I just filter it on the way to the storage tank after it has settled for a few days.

    My only concern is what have I actually done to the fuel by heating it to 180 degrees? is the brown colour caused by carbon or something such as? have I 'burnt' the fuel and reduced its calorific value?

    I am looking forward to hearing some comments - good and bad on what I have done or what I could improve, or if the process has no value at all.
    Regards,

    Cade.

    2006 Landcruiser HDJ100 (1HD-FTE) 20,000 on bio
    2006 Ford Courier(WLT Motor), 10,000 on bio
    2002 Landcruiser HZJ105r (1HZ motor) 250,000 on bio (sold)
    2006 Mazda B2500 (WLT motor) 80,000 on bio (sold)



  9. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Brisbane (North Side)
    Posts
    724

    Re: washing with heat

    So I have been doing a little more reading and in particular it seems that the 'smash it to pieces' method of water washing seems very easy according to the journey to forever website. The only reason I am reluctant to water wash (I know a lot of you guys have been doing it forever) is it seems counter intuitive to me to be adding water to the fuel and then have to hope that you get it all out again after. What about any water that might drop out in your tank after the the fuel goes through a few heat cycles (trips through the fuel pump and return to the tank). Is the addition of metho / methanol etc an acceptable solution to 'soak' up any water that may present and allow it to be burnt? I am really interested in improving my fuel quality but am very time poor so I need a solution that is quick, easy and no fuss. misting and bubbling seems like it will take too long for me.

    As much as I am interested in seeing if washing with heat is viable, I am also mindful of the obvious dangers in heating bio up past its flash temp, so I am all ears.
    Regards,

    Cade.

    2006 Landcruiser HDJ100 (1HD-FTE) 20,000 on bio
    2006 Ford Courier(WLT Motor), 10,000 on bio
    2002 Landcruiser HZJ105r (1HZ motor) 250,000 on bio (sold)
    2006 Mazda B2500 (WLT motor) 80,000 on bio (sold)



  10. #40
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,197

    Re: washing with heat

    Cade,
    Good to see you are back experimenting with your bio.
    Even better to see that you have recognised some of the risks associated with this experiment.
    What I would like to identify is the composition of the 'floaties' that you created by heating the biodiesel to 180C
    I would imagine that the brown colouring is due to the biodiesel getting 'burnt' at the bottom of the saucepan. The metal of the saucepan is at a much higher temperature than the biodiesel, so there is a risk of changing it's chemical properties by heating it to a much higher temperature while heating the oil to 180C. If you can heat it with a heat source which is within a few degrees of the desired temperature of the biodiesel, you may be able to minimise / eliminate the browning of the biodiesel.
    If you can get an insulated container and add insulation around the heating elements, monitor the element and biodiesel temperatures, and heat the biodiesel much slower, I would be interested in seeing if the biodiesel changes colour at temp <180C

    Keep up the good work.
    Tony
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP)


    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 SOLD.
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).


    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


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