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Thread: washing with heat

  1. #11
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    Re: washing with heat

    Hi smithy,
    Quote Originally Posted by smithy View Post
    Gotten my information from water washing something like 250 batches since I started. Oil and water do readily emulsify.
    As I suspected, you are just guessing.
    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 17th October 2017 at 07:23 AM.

  2. #12
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    Re: washing with heat

    Since we started to lock horns Tilly on various forums, all you have ever done is belittle any tests or experiments I have ever done. You may try to play the great god on this forum but you don't know everything.

    Have a look at my rider on your warnqvist test thread and you will see what I mean.

    Sorry to other forum members for throwing this thread off topic but I do get really cheesed off with this guy.

  3. #13
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    Re: washing with heat

    HI smithy,

    Quote Originally Posted by smithy View Post
    Since we started to lock horns Tilly on various forums, all you have ever done is belittle any tests or experiments I have ever done.
    Please describe the experiments you have performed that supports your contention that triglycerides are prone to making emulsions when washing very high conversion biodiesel.

    I will tell you what I know.
    You always claim that you make very high conversion biodiesel, and you test your biodiesel with the 3/27 test and make sure your biodiesel passes this test before proceeding.
    The 250 batches you are basing this claim on were very high conversion biodiesel.
    Very high conversion biodiesel contains virtually no Triglycerides
    Therefore the 250 batches of biodiesel you are basing your clam on contained virtually no triglycerides.
    If there are virtually no triglycerides in very high conversion biodiesel, it is extremely unlikely that triglycerides will be a significant cause of emulsion problems when water washing very high conversion biodiesel

    On the other hand, Very high conversion biodiesel will contain both monoglycerides and diglyceride which are both used in industry as emulsifiers.
    Very high conversion biodiesel will initially contain soap which is also an emulsifier.

    If you have actually performed any meaningful tests that shows that triglycerides are a likely cause of emulsions when water washing very high conversion biodiesel, please post it.
    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 17th October 2017 at 10:49 AM.

  4. #14
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    Re: washing with heat

    Ahh - Tilly - The thread isnt about water washing at all. Its about whether or not you can acheive the same outcome of water washing by removing methanol with heat. Note the thread title. I think Ill just go and do my own thing. Ill let you know what I come up with if you lot can ever stop arguing.
    Regards,

    Cade.

    2002 100 series Landcruiser
    240,000 Km and counting on B100, 330,000km total on car.
    Naturally aspirated, Walbro Pusher pump just upstream of tank switch valves, Cav filter with reversed fuel flow direction.
    At 160,000 km Rebuilt pump, Reconditioned head and manifolds, glow plugs. Injectors all good after 160,000 km on B100.

  5. #15
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    Re: washing with heat

    Hi Cade,

    Quote Originally Posted by Captaincademan View Post
    Ahh - Tilly - The thread isnt about water washing at all.
    Yes, I finally realize that and have removed that reference




    I think Ill just go and do my own thing. Ill let you know what I come up with
    That seems to be the best solution. I know my "wash" procedure is not "world class" and no one else has responded. I eagerly await your findings




    if you lot can ever stop arguing.
    This is just a little game smithy and I play.
    He says something silly and then I point out how silly it is and then he pretends to get angry because I have pointed out how silly it is.
    At the end of the day we meet in a pub and laugh over it all
    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 17th October 2017 at 10:32 AM.

  6. #16
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    Re: washing with heat

    Well I am glad to hear that! Well done. For the record I think you won that exchange Tilly.

    From what I understand soap removal is something that everyone tries to acheive with water washing. Are the soaps created due to the presence of water? or are they there by default of the bio reaction?

    i.e. if I remove the methanol with heat, do I need to be concerned about the sneaky soap still hiding - or will this drop out with no methanol present - or is it not there at all because I havent introduced water?
    Regards,

    Cade.

    2002 100 series Landcruiser
    240,000 Km and counting on B100, 330,000km total on car.
    Naturally aspirated, Walbro Pusher pump just upstream of tank switch valves, Cav filter with reversed fuel flow direction.
    At 160,000 km Rebuilt pump, Reconditioned head and manifolds, glow plugs. Injectors all good after 160,000 km on B100.

  7. #17
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    Re: washing with heat

    Hi Cade,

    Quote Originally Posted by Captaincademan View Post
    Are the soaps created due to the presence of water? or are they there by default of the bio reaction?
    There are two main causes for soap being produced. The first and sometimes most significant cause of soap production in a Base only procedure is when the FFA's are neutralized and turned into soap. This does create water.
    The second cause of soap production is the presence of water, both in the methoxide and the WVO. This will result in a saponifiction side reaction of both the WVO and biodiesel.



    i.e. if I remove the methanol with heat, do I need to be concerned about the sneaky soap still hiding - or will this drop out with no methanol present - or is it not there at all because I havent introduced water?
    I have heard from reliable sources that it is the methanol that holds the soap in suspension in the biodiesel and if you remove the methanol the soap will drop out. I have never performed tests to verify this is in fact what happens
    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 19th October 2017 at 05:43 AM.

  8. #18
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    Re: washing with heat

    Thanks Tilly. I think I will boil (65 degree or so) some fresh bio on the stove tonight and see what happens. It will be interesting to see how much the volume decreases. I have boiled the meth out of glycerine in the past attempting to make some useful body soap, so I know there is a crap load of methanol in the glycerine.
    Regards,

    Cade.

    2002 100 series Landcruiser
    240,000 Km and counting on B100, 330,000km total on car.
    Naturally aspirated, Walbro Pusher pump just upstream of tank switch valves, Cav filter with reversed fuel flow direction.
    At 160,000 km Rebuilt pump, Reconditioned head and manifolds, glow plugs. Injectors all good after 160,000 km on B100.

  9. #19
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    Re: washing with heat

    I look forward to your test results. It may take some time for the byproduct to drop out after the methanol has gone. I would like to see how much has dropped out in 12 hours, 24 hours and 48 hours if this is feasible to record this. I was thinking that you may be able to draw it up in a syringe at those time intervals so you can measure it accurately. This may not be practical depending on the byproduct viscosity.
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    Toyota Camry Hybrid - (Wife's Car)

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]



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  10. #20
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    Re: washing with heat

    Luckily for you I am a Chemist, unlike anyone else on this forum.

    Just heating the brew to remove the MeOH won't work - it will probably form an azeotrope (most alcohols do), but in any case the logistics of the heterogenous nature of the process render it impractical (if you had a thermostated heater, boiling chips, and a fractional distillation column it might work in principal). Bottom line is that you can be well above the BP of pure MeOH and still have residual MeOH in there.

    The biggest issue with the residual MeOH is the glycerol that it retains. Let me tell you, if you put some unclarified bio in your tank and get the gly settling out you're in a world of hurt.

    As far as how you remove it, there are several methods, but I use air. You don't need a compressor, I just use an aquarium bubbler, although it does take time. Important thing is to know when the process is done. Check my method and skip to the end for the QC test I use.

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