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  1. #1
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    Glycerol composition.

    Just a new thread to keep this subject separate so not to confuse things.

    I have 'cracked' glycerol with conc sulphuric acid several times. The result is always similar. The glycerol is ex-process or has been used to pre wash oil. The process did not use any method to dry the methoxide (imisides, asm, other)

    The top layer of FFA's is always about 1/3 of the total volume. This top layer was the soap contained in the glycerol, now hydrolysed by the acid.

    A friend of mine who used to make bio commercially from glycerol would buy his feedstock from large biodiesel producers. He would have it delivered in tankers, 27000 litres per go. His yield of FFA's from this glycerol was variable but always around the 35% level.

    During our process if our oil is dry and has no or very little titration and our methoxide is dry (ASM, Imisides or whatever) then the amount of soap produced is greatly reduced.

    If we can approach a near anhydrous process the glycerol volume can be reduced by up to 1/3 Where has the extra volume gone? - it is in the bio as extra yield, not in the glycerol as soap.

    This is an extract from Tillys post telling me I'm talking a load of Ba**s

    Hi smithy,
    In keeping with the spirit of trying to clear up the many inaccurate and misleading posts you have made, I think this is a good point to clear up this amazing bit of misinformation you posted early in this thread.


    Originally Posted by smithy
    Anyway just to add, when I tried this method coming up to 3 years ago using Potassium Methoxide dried by using quicklime (CaO) the volume of glycerol recovered after processing was greatly reduced. Glycerol has a variable soap content depending on oil quality, methanol quality and type of catalyst used, but is in the order of 35%. With the dry methoxide there was virtually no potassium soap, so the glycerol volume was about 2/3 of normal.



    If this were true, which of course it isn't, that would mean that your byproduct layer (Glycerol) is about 92% pure glycerine.
    I have actually pointed this out to you several times over the years but it seemed to make no difference and you continually post these impossible results as being the truth.
    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Have you somehow miscalculated the amount of glycerine in rapeseed oil Tilly?

  2. #2
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    Re: Glycerol composition.

    Hi smithy,

    Quote Originally Posted by smithy View Post
    Have you somehow miscalculated the amount of glycerine in rapeseed oil Tilly?
    There are 74ml of glycerin in a litre of vegetable oil.
    You claimed to have reacted 200 litres of WVO which produced 16 litres of by-product/ glycerol.
    The amount of glycerine in 200 litres of WVO would be 74ml x 200= 14800ml= 14.8 litres
    Total glycerine content of the by-product /glycerol layer in your reaction would be 14800/16000 of the total amount of by-product= 92.5% of the total volume.

    But that was not the most amazing part! You claimed to have performed this single stage reaction using only 24 litres of methanol! That is only 12% methanol!!

    Of course the problem is that while you pretend to be performing a single stage reaction on WVO, you are actually performing the second stage reaction on partially reacted biodiesel

    Do you really think anyone believes you?
    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 28th November 2017 at 04:55 PM.

  3. #3
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    Re: Glycerol composition.

    As regards moving towards a water free process by drying oil using a glycerol pre-treatment and using predominantly a water free methoxise;

    jamesrl (highly regarded on the ok vod forum with his work on 2 stage eductors) reported on 6.12.13 "I never get more than 65 to 70% glycerol of the added methoxide volume"

    Richard P reported on biopowered on 27.2.13, talking about his experiances using ASM he said that he reacted 160/170 litre batches. He added around 26 litres of methoxide and got a similar amount of ex process glycerol. After using ASM he added a similar amount of methoxide and produced only 15 litres of glycerol.

  4. #4
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    Re: Glycerol composition.

    Hi smithy,

    When a 2 stage reaction is performed such as you do when you perform a first stage reaction with the glycerol pre-treatment, there is by-product/ glycerol produced in both stages.
    The amount of by-product/ glycerol produced in each stage is variable depending on many things including, but not limited to, the amount of chemicals used in each stage and the initial titration of the oil.

    Because you pretend your glycerol pre-treatment is not a stage of reaction, you do not count the amount of by-product/ glycerol produced in your first stage reaction.
    The byproduct/ glycerol produced in this first stage reaction is removed along with the glycerol you added to perform this first stage reaction and you pretend the by-product/ glycerol produced in this first stage reaction never existed.
    You pretend that the only by-product/ glycerol produced is that which is produced in the second stage reaction.

    I assure you that chemical reactions are the same in York England as they are here in sunny ลึก ประเทศอินเด&
    What you are doing is not magical, it is only that while you are pretending to be performing a single stage reaction,you are actually performing a 2 stage reaction and only counting the by-product/ glycerol produced in the second stage reaction
    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 30th November 2017 at 09:38 AM.

  5. #5
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    Re: Glycerol composition.

    Hi Tilly, Don't you get all hyped up with my glycerol pre-treats, don't worry about them, just stay calm.

    Hi Everyone on the forum down under that brews bio. Smithy here from blighty. Want to increase your yield? Want to produce less glycerol byproduct?

    Make sure your oil is dry, Make sure you have neutralised all the FFA's (doing a glycerol pre-treatment is best)

    Make sure you use dry methoxide (use either ASM or 50/50 ASM/KOH or use KOH and dry the methoxide by the Imisides method)

    You will find you produce roughly 2/3 of your normal glycerol amount ( the missing 1/3 will be in your processor as bio)

    Just a little story here about someone I helped on the UK forum.

    His oil titrated at 25ish and his yield was 62 litres of bio from 100 litres of oil using a base/base process. I suggested to him that if he did an enhanced glycerol pre-wash (adding methoxide to the glycerol) it would result in a more efficient process. He tried this and ended up with oil that (from memory titrated at about 5) His process did not result in any significant reduction in chemicals but his yield ended up at 82 litres and (guess what) his glycerol amount reduced by about 20 litres.

    So if your oil titrates high and you can't be bothered to do AE then try this, it works really well.

  6. #6
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    Re: Glycerol composition.

    Hi smithy,

    I see you have gone into panic mode.
    You are always much more entertaining when you are in panic mode.

    Quote Originally Posted by smithy View Post
    Want to increase your yield? Want to produce less glycerol byproduct?
    Make sure you have neutralised all the FFA's (doing a glycerol pre-treatment is best)
    But what if they do not have access to glycerol from another brewer that contains plenty of methoxide like you use to perform the glycerol pre-treatment and they are only using 12% methanol in the reaction as you claim you do?
    Then what should they do?
    Wherever are they to get their methoxide rich glycerol that is necessary to perform the glycerol pre-treatment that you pretend does not perform a stage of reaction?





    I suggested to him that if he did an enhanced glycerol pre-wash (adding methoxide to the glycerol)
    Adding methoxide to the glycerol!!
    What a brilliant idea!!!
    You add EXTRA methoxide to the glycerol that you perform the glycerol pre-wash with and pretend it is not a stage of reaction. Very clever!
    I am sure no one will spot the deception





    Make sure you use dry methoxide (use either ASM or 50/50 ASM/KOH or use KOH and dry the methoxide by the Imisides method) You will find you produce roughly 2/3 of your normal glycerol amount ( the missing 1/3 will be in your processor as bio)
    Let us see how that claim stacks up with the test results DavidS recently posted.
    He performed a reaction on a litre of new oil and the methoxide had not been dried.
    He achieved a yield of 1039ml of Biodiesel with a glycerol fall out of 121ml.
    That gave him a yield of about 103.9% by volume.
    Theoretically the maximum yield is about 104% by volume.

    Now if he had performed your glycerol prewash first, you claim that would have remove about 1/3 of the volume from the fallout to the biodiesel as extra biodiesel produced. An extra 40ml of biodiesel.
    That would gives us a new volume of 1079ml biodiesel for a yield of 107.9% by volume.
    But the theoretical maximum yield is only 104% by volume.

    IT'S MAGIC!
    YOU HAVE DISCOVERED A MAGICAL PROCEDURE!!


    That seems to be the story of your life.
    You often claim to do magical things no one else can do.

    "I appreciate your effort here but you consistently get results that no one else can achieve due to unknown circumstances, because of this your results dont hold much weight."
    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 1st December 2017 at 12:58 PM.

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