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Thread: Veggy Oil and the Modern Direct Injection Diesel-What you need to know

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    Veggy Oil and the Modern Direct Injection Diesel-What you need to know

    Veggy Oil And The Modern Direct Injection Diesel

    (This is a copy of the post I made over on the U.K Goat-Forum a while back concerning this important issue.)

    Ive been asked a couple of times lately, the effects of Veggy Oil and Single-Tank 'Conversions' to Direct Injection type Diesel engines, so I thought I would put all down here for reference, instead of going over it many times---

    Nearly all Post 2000 Diesel vehicles are of this type, There are the odd exceptions but not many...The reasons why the Makers have gone over to Di type engines are-Cheaper to produce, and an increase in Volumetric Efficiency--Less Pumping-Losses... (basically you can get more power out of the same capacity engine. However, This comes at a cost-The Di type engine is a lot more tempremental as to its fuelling and timing requirements with relation to its smoke and other emissions-

    -- No Problem though, We, -The Maker Of Your Choice, will chuck a Microprocessor at it, to control all that-- Much Cheaper than all the time and extra machining of a Pre-Chamber engine, and we can use the Same Engine in the basic model AND the top of the range Sporty Model, Just a few different Plastic-Covers, and there you go!...All we need to do for the power differences is change Firmware Code in the EEPROMS! Just Perfect, Give that technician a FAT bonus!) --

    Cheapskates the Makers really--Pile 'em High, Sell 'em Cheap, Stick a DVD in the back and lots of pretty plastic covers on the engine (To Hide The Truth maybe!)...Pander to the Masses demanding Ever More Power, and clean up the exhaust with cunning electronics and exhaust 'filters' as well as the weird Cerium based additive 'modules' needing replacement at a cost of Hundreds every year or so......(They LOVE those things!)

    To get back on track, Now Ive done my soap-box bit, What does this mean for veggy oil as a replacement 'fuel' for these Direct Injection modern beasts?

    It gets a 'little' technical, but not too bad, Worth plodding on, It is however assumed that the reader knows in principle the operation of the Diesel Engine.....

    As has been described elsewhere, The first small Car Diesel-Engines were Indirect Injection, Meaning the fuel was sprayed by the Injector into a small Ante-Chamber known as a Pre-Chamber or Swirl-Chamber, normally contained within the Cylinder-Head. This chamber was connected to the main chamber by a tangentally arranged narrow passage or by small holes as in the case of the Mercedes Pre-Chamber type.

    This was needed to be done, as a huge amount of Turbulence is needed to effectively mix the air and diesel-fuel spray in the tiny amount of time to allow high speed operation and make for a very Progressive Burn, rather than a sudden explosion. If the fuel didnt burn at a controlled and progressive rate, it was found not to be possible to run the engine at high speeds without major noise and smoke emissions.--Something tolerable with Trucks in the '30's but Not cars of the '70's and 80's when Diesel Cars started creeping on to the scene.

    There are generally Two Types of 'Pre-Chamber' or Indirect Injection engine. The Mercedes System, where a small spherical chamber is connected to the main chamber by a blind ended tube with several small holes set at right-angles to the piston axis. Contained in this spherical chamber, there is a 'Hot-Spot', formed by a small rod with an enlarged central section. This is in direct line of 'squirt' from the injector and allowed to run at very high temperatures--Around glowing orange heat This promotes a good vapourisation and ignition of the fuel and a really well controlled progressive + quiet burn....

    The other system, developed by the Combustion Engineers, Ricardo's (Yes, The same guys of the Infamous 'Report'), developed in the '30's and called the 'Ricardo Comet' design is used by nearly every other car engine maker using IDi technology. This as mentioned earlier is a semi-spherical chamber, with the Injector at the top, mounted at an angle as to Not direct its spray down the throat of the communicating passage from the main combustion chamber. This small passage is set at an angle to the sphere, so as air is compressed in the cylinder, it will be forced into the pre-chamber with some force and at just the right angle to cause the air-mass inside the chamber to swirl at very high velocity, just like a whirl-wind

    The lower half of the sphere containing the tangental passage, is made from a special autenitic Stainless-Steel and deliberately allowed to run at very high temperatures, by reducing its contact area with the actual metal of the cylinder-head into which its pressed (Its outer cercumference has a recess in it, below the face of the head...)

    This promotes excellent mixing and vapourisation of the injected fuel as well as a good progressive burn.

    As can be seen, With the IDi system, There is MUCH less likelyhood of Unburned Fuel making it the distance involved to the cylinder-wall, without first vapourising and burning away.

    Consider the Direct Injection type engine. Here, the Combustion chamber is formed in the top or 'Crown' of the piston. Usually it forms a bowl sometimes with a flat bottom sometimes with a raised bottom Often there is a small ridge of around 1mm around the top of the bowl, an attempt to contain the combustion 'charge' and promote turbulence during the last few mm of upward piston travel, causing 'Squish' of the air between the head and piston, forcing the air towards the centre of the chamber. The Inlet-Manifold and valve-tract is often very carefully designed to cause 'tumble' of the air as its drawn into the cylinder through the open valve, to promote as much Turbulence in the air-mass as possible.

    There are NO hot-Spots or anything like that to assist in the vapourisation of the injected fuel, as well as the fact that the piston-bowl runs at a very much lower temperature than a Pre-Chamber or M.B 'Hot-Spot', as the piston is made of Autothermic Aluminium Alloy and cooled quite effectively by the cylinder-walls and the lube-oil from underneath, flung up from the crank-pin and connecting-rod...

    Being a large open chamber, in comparison to the Swirl Chamber types, with nothing much between the cylinder-wall and the injector there is a Huge likelyhood even on the best designs and everything perfect that unburned and or partially burned or 'pyrolised' fuel will hit the cylinder-walls

    Another factor in favour for us 'Veggies' of the Venerable IDi is the type of Injector used with the IDi system. Generally, this is a 'Pintle' type. meaning that its rather like a needle-valve, where the needle protrudes slightly from the hole, in the face of the nozzle and during normal operation the movement of the needle lifting will keep the hole and needle pintle fairly clean of coke (Carbon to us Mortals!)

    The Di system generally uses a 'Hole' type injector Usually, up to eight tiny, and I MEAN TINY holes are arranged in the nozzle tip. these are Very short passages, their inner end is closed off by the nozzle needle when its not actually spraying fuel. They are kept as short as is mechanically possible to reduce the amount of fuel that will slowly boil off and vapourise due to the heat of combustion just after injection has finished, which would otherwise raise smoke and emission levels.

    Consider the effect that even a minute amount of Carbon build-up would have on this type of injector nozzle...It would completely disrupt the correct operation of the nozzle, and instead of a very fine spray, one or two holes could literally produce a jet of un-atomised fuel, just like a water-pistol....

    So,--Why should I care if unburned veggy hits the cylinder-walls of my pride and joy...?


    Just Two Words....

    RING-GUMMING.........

    When exposed to heat and oxygen Veggy-Oil will start to break down. It starts to thicken and polymerise and as time goes on, it turns from a sticky brown 'goo' into a hard black Coke/Carbon material. Just take a look at the frying-pan in your favorite Greasy-Spoon!

    Any unburned veggy or partially burned veggy hitting the cylinder-walls will find its way to the Piston-Ring grooves on the next upward stroke of the piston. This veggy will collect in the gap behind the rings and the small clearances either side of the ring and piston. As time heat and plenty of oxygen are available, it breaks down and sets solid, sticking the ring in its groove, so it can no longer follow the irregularities of the cylinder-wall and seal the piston, as it was intended.

    This ring gumming is slow and progressive, The speed at which it happens is dependent on Many factors The main ones being the temperature of the combustion-chamber and the condition of the injector atomisation, but as it progresses, gets faster and faster, at a weirdly logarithmic rate...

    This causes loss of compression pressure gradually over weeks/months of use. which contributes to the secondary effect....Often the slow and progressive slight power loss may not even be noticed, or blamed on other issues, such as blocking filters or the choice of veggy oil or even the weather (No one wants to admit even to themselves there's something nasty growing in the Crank-Case!)....

    (A Diesel Engine relies on the fact that when air is compressed, it gets hot, just like the effect noticed when pumping up a bicycle tyre. It depends on this heat for the ignition of the fuel. If for some reason there is a loss of air, say, from leaky rings, the peak temperature attained by the air at the point where the piston is at Top Dead-Centre, A.K.A. Top of the cylinder, the point of maximum compression pressure, the air will be cooler than intended, thus there is a very real danger of incomplete combustion, or even a complete Misfire, where the veggy wont burn at all, Pale bluish or White-Smoke in exhaust and maybe an unsteady engine when idling)

    Not all the veggy is burned Particularly when cold, so this just adds to the supply of 'Ring-Glue'

    As it progresses, the amounts of unburned veggy in the combustion chamber/cylinder, increase where it will pass to the lubrication oil by the operation of the oil control rings scraping it off the bores. The Oil Scraper/Control rings, being the lowest on the piston are last to be affected, The Top ring, which is the main sealing ring and subject to the full force of combustion pressure is first to go...

    (Just as well the Oil-Control ring is last to go, or the engine could have otherwise end up in a runaway condition where it burns all its lube-oil in a minute or two and hits revs the makers would never have dreamed possible...The danger to life when driving a vehicle when this happens is better not even imagined, You CANT SHUT IT DOWN!....although I dont need to imagine it...Its happened many years ago to me....)

    This ring gumming is Progressive and Accelerating Process, Thats why its so Insidious!

    The Veggy builds up in the engine lube-oil....

    There comes a 'Critical Mass' point, (although before this, it can thicken to some extent but without careful testing the amount of contamination cannot really be assessed),- where the Mineral Lube-oil and the Veggy oil are in the right proportions with the normal engine heat and other forces to react to form a polymer, and on that fateful day the engine cools after the 'Critical-Mass' has been reached where the lube-oil will set solid, just like jelly!

    -Seen it happen, Very strange stuff is evolved...Same consistancy as Dessert Jelly, with the wobble and shake to boot, but greenish black opaque and covered in a clear yellow thin oily fluid. It has a slight but weird almost linseed/white spirit type smell too....

    Next engine start, you'll not have any oil pressure, and if not noticed, engine destruction will occur within minutes.....

    IF the Lube-Oil is changed, then the risk of Polymerisation is removed....For Now...
    The Ring-Gumming continues its destructive course, untill the point that there is insufficient compression to attain combustion at all. The outcome is the engine just will not start, Maybe a tow-start will get it going but it will soon die perminently!

    OK, So you keep an eye on the Lube-Oil level....Great, Spiffin, Marvelous!

    This will only tell you that incomplete combustion and ring problems have already started, if you see an increase in level....
    You could have an engine, maybe not in its first flush of youth or just because of its design, that normally uses a small amount of Lube-Oil anyway, so the slow dilution with veggy will keep pace with its normal oil use....The lube dilution will then not be noticed, or maybe mistaken that the engine is no longer using up its lube-oil....The outcome is inevitable....

    I hope this will prevent just one engine self-destructing on veggy oil and explains the Importance of a Twin-Tank system for the Modern (and Not so Modern....) Direct Injection Diesel engine...

    If it does, then my efforts are rewarded...


    Alastair Bowlie-Evans,

    A.K.A, H.C.II, At- Public Information Divn, SWC

  2. #2
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    Re: Veggy Oil and the Modern Direct Injection Diesel-What you need to know

    I had to edit a section as it was just a few paragraphs too long. It concerned the use of Soy based oils and the effects on injectors etc.

    Here it is--

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Update for addition of information on the different types of Vegetable-Oil, particularly Soy/Soya based oils
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Soy Oil issues—OR—What IS your WVO...?...

    I recently did some testing of my own to confirm the testing done by a German Co, (I forget who) and that was recently posted on this Forum.

    Similar to the testing done by the Germans, I was using GM Soy oil, running through brand-new injectors, and new heat-shield washers. The test-engine was a M.B. OM-602 in my 190D 2.5 These were run for 500 odd miles, consisting of roughly 50/50 motorway and 'commuting'/round town pottering

    The Injectors were then removed, dismantled and examined. They were heavily carbonated and both the needle and pintle were gummed, with a greenish-yellow matte coating. During the use of the vehicle nearing the end-of-test there was also a noticeable amount of smoke when the engine had been run, but Not fully hot-just 'warm', No excessive smoke on start-up, or when fully hot, and otherwise appeared to function normally....

    I did the same using Rape-seed after chemically cleaning the injectors and after a similar mileage again examined the injectors. While there was some carbon present it was very much less than on the Soy oil, with no gumming or yellowish/greenish deposits/gums of the needle and pintle The odd effect of smoke on a 'warm' engine was not present at the end-of-test, and has not returned running Rape-seed oil

    The engine is in a completely Standard state of tune, no timing alterations or H.E etc...--Not that any mods would help the carbonisation/gumming of Injectors taking place when using Soy oils anyway.....

    Types to stay away from (Particularly if your engine is of the Direct-Injection type) are the Soy oils or Soya-bean oils, (As well as the GM Modified Soy--The cheapest in the Warehouses....) as these have been proven to cause carbonisation/gums in Injectors and combustion-chambers-

    -A Di type Injector cannot tolerate much in the way of contamination before becoming inefficient.....

    An Indirect Injection engine with its Pintle-Injector has the advantage that it doesnt get quite as hot, (But still quite hot enough according to my findings...) and is almost ‘self-cleaning’ in its operation, Unlike the ‘Hole’ type used with a Di engine....

    The problem with this type of oil is it breaks down at the temperatures seen at injector nozzles, 250-300 deg.C and without Oxygen being present. It 'polymerises' caused by the temperatures causing the long-chain molecules 'cross-linking'--Basically just like Linseed oil, It dries, but unlike Linseed it 'polymerises' without the presence of air, just the heat is enough. Rape-seed oil is much more resistant to this effect

    This 'damage' happens mainly during the cooling down of the engine, when there is a high % of Soy-oil in the system, and during times of low fuel flow through the injectors

    It has been speculated, that a percentage of std. Diesel fuel blended with the Soy oil can reduce the effects of this polymerisation/carbonisation. I have neither confirmed or tested this theory.—A job for Summer-time I think!

    There is a definite difference in the exhaust smell of Soy oils and Rape-oils.
    Soy (To me,) smells of a BarBQ on fire, a burnt sort of meaty smell, while Rape smells of a fresh chip-pan cooking, and not a 'burnt' smell....

    If you plan to use WVO (Waste-Veggy Oil) the only indicator that you may have as to the type of oil you are collecting, is the containers you are collecting it in, if they are supplied by the chippy etc, These are often the same ones the oil came in when new, the old oil being re-filled into the empty containers for disposal after use--But-This isnt always the case....

    Unfortunately, not all containers from all suppliers say exactly what type of oil they contain, and those that do only in the 'small-print' like on the KTC bottle-in-box stuff, if its just called 'Pure Vegetable-Oil'....
    Last edited by Tony From West Oz; 10th June 2008 at 02:12 AM. Reason: Remove coment related to deleted post

  3. #3
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    Re: Veggy Oil and the Modern Direct Injection Diesel-What you need to know

    The other issue that HCII alludes to at the start of this sticky, but doesn't follow through with, is the electronic injectors in a common rail system.

    Forum members have little, if any, experience running 100% WVO in a common rail system with electronic injectors.

    Normal Direct Injection engines run with a cracking pressure of the injector of approx 3000psi.
    Common rail pressures are ten times more than this, and the fuel requirements, purging requirements and just how it would all go, have not been experimented by forum members.

    If you have a vehicle with a common rail system, we suggest you investigate using BioDiesel instead.

    We suggest you check the sticky that lists the types of vehicles that have been successfully converted before venturing down the path of any conversion to WVO.

    Tim
    Last edited by Tim-HJ61; 6th September 2010 at 12:34 PM. Reason: Reviewing posting

  4. #4
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    Re: you are the best

    As an example of what can go wrong, these are a couple of photos from a Toyota 1HD-T factory turbo running on veggie oil for about 15,000km since an engine rebuild.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Note how the rings are clogged up and there is no gap in the ring groove for the ring to rotate. This has led to grooving in the bore which has required a rebore as part of the rebuild.

    Why did this happen? Well it's pretty well described in the posts above. The vehicle was properly set up with a two tank system, automated purging, but it was not fool proof. He lent his car to extended family who perhaps didn't understand the importance of purging, or the problems caused by not purging. The result is as you see - a broken motor. The symptoms were high oil burning - clouds of smoke. The owner stopped the vehicle before an overrun situation occurred and had the car trailered home.

    The lesson is the same as others in this thread. Veggie and DI is possible, there is simply less tolerance for sloppy practices.

    Tim
    Last edited by Tim-HJ61; 14th April 2017 at 11:49 AM. Reason: Fix up photos
    Toyota Landcruiser 1988 HJ61 Manual Wagon
    12H-T turbo Direct Injection.
    Twin Tank setup runs on 100% WVO after warm up. 30 plate FPHE with 80C output, 12mm fuel lines
    Start up and shut down electric fuel pump feeds IP direct.
    Front 4WDSytstems Lokka, Rear ARB airlokka for quick escapes up sandhills. Performance GTurbo with 600mm FMIC gives 450nm @ 1700rpm at 20psi boost.

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