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Thread: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

  1. #11
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    Thumbs up Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

    G'day mates,
    This is a long post but I believe it to be a useful post.
    I know our government and tax system was/is a direct copy of the Westminster system and it has served us well over the years, but it has served “some” much better than others! Politicians being one group among the “some”!
    Some members of the forum compare England to Australia or rather the fuel tax imposed by England and Australia, but truly...England can in no way be compared with Australia!
    England, compared to Australia, Canada, South Africa and the USA to mention a few, has “no” wealth, zero natural wealth, of it's own to speak of! It does have a bit of coal and a bit of oil but to the best of my knowledge...That's it! Comparing Australia with England, or the whole of the UK for that matter, for natural wealth, is like comparing Bill Gates and his wealth with Joe, the local postman and his semi detached under mortgage home...There is simply no comparison!
    So as England had no wealth of it's own, England built a strong army and navy, then they invaded other countries to rip-off that countries wealth. I know it states in the history books that England never invaded any other country, they were always “invited” into those countries but once England got it's big boot in the door, the upper class English and English big business helped themselves to that countries natural wealth! British pollies not wanting the upper class English and English big business to get all the perks and leave them out of the feeding trough, increased taxes and from those taxes, they increased their own salaries, so much so that a lot of upper class English and English big business families had to sell their ancestral homes to pay British taxes...and British pollies salaries!
    From what I'm told and have read, things haven't changed that much over the years, tax-wise, in the UK! We Aussies, with all the wealth our country holds, should definitely not be copying the British tax system!
    The following is a post from ??/06/2005, I copied it from: UK Diesel Prices - Amongst The Cheapest But By Far The Most Expensive - Transport News Network
    Ultra high rates of fuel duty in the UK make diesel forecourt prices by far the highest in Europe despite the fact that the basic commodity price for diesel in the UK is amongst the cheapest.
    The Freight Transport Association says that with the seeming inevitability of a $60 barrel price for oil, the Government's high tax regime is adding unnecessary pain to the UK transport industry.
    At 28.9p per litre, the UK's basic diesel price is little different from the rest of Europe - Estonia is 26.6p, France 27.6p, Germany 27.7p and, at the top of the pile, Malta at 32.8p. But the picture changes dramatically following the addition of fuel duty and VAT. At 47.8p per litre, UK fuel duty is by far the highest in Europe - the nearest comparisons are Germany at 32.2p and Italy at 28.2p. When VAT tops off the mix then the UK forecourt price reaches 89.0p per litre compared with Germany at 69.5p, Italy at 72.0p and Sweden at 72.1p.
    FTA Chief Economist Simon Chapman says, "It is ironic that whilst we have amongst the cheapest commodity prices in Europe for diesel, the UK tax regime takes our prices almost off the scale when compared to our competitors. Freight transport is a vital factor in our economy and impacts on everything we use or consume. As such, high fuel taxes make a significant contribution to the price of everything we buy. Future tax policy should seek to bring our fuel prices closer to those of our European neighbours."

    One reply:
    Posted by Harvie Gemmell at 22/06/2005 11:34 AM
    What a surprise to find the basic commodity price of diesel to be competetive only to be sent into orbit with duty and VAT. Lets not be mamby pamby about this, its absolutely bloody ridiculous, I ask this Government, does britain want to become a holiday island, with no service industries of its own? Because thats where its going.

    Shame on you Harvie Gemmell for having a go at your poor, I think not, British pollies and their greedy tax system!

    Okay so what natural wealth do we have in Australia? We have to much to list here and besides, on this forum we are only interested in alternative fuels, home grown fuels, that would reduce our dependence on foreign oil imports?
    (1) First, we have so much natural gas it seems we are giving it away to other nations!
    We “should” be using that natural gas in our own vehicles right now. We have the technology to do so. There's a company in Sydney that sell a natural gas fueling system/pump that can be fitted on the natural gas supply at your home to fill-up your natural gas/diesel gas/petrol vehicle!
    Read this report at: The 7.30 Report - ABC.
    To the best of my knowledge, nothing has changed, improved for Aussies wanting to use natural gas in their vehicles, in the past year!
    By the way, who do you think owns the gas plant that processes our natural gas in the NT?
    No surprises here! Ownership of natural gas plants is owned by the following conglomerate!

    Quote:
    The North West Shelf Gas Project LNG plant is owned equally (one-sixth each) by Woodside Offshore Petroleum, Shell Development, BHP Petroleum (NWS), BP Developments Australia, Chevron Asiatic and Japan Australia LNG (Mitsui and Misubishi (MiMi).
    End Quote:

    (2) Sunlight...backed up with batteries and a silent diesel generator:
    Just about every home in Australia could be generating more electricity than it could use and it would not cost a heap of dough to set-up the in-house power plant. The electricity the home did not use could be sold back, or given to the power grid!

    (3) Each home should also have it's own solar hot water heater, backed-up by the solar/diesel/battery electric generating back-up. Anyone handy with a few tools could build their own solar water heaters, when finished a plumber would be required to connect the heater to the main water supply, a ten minute job and there would be only “one” moving part that would need replacing over time, the washer in the ballcock! You could go for a gravity feed system on install a small hot water pump in-line and have a pressure system...like those fitted to ships, large yachts, some larger caravans and mobile homes!

    (4) We could be using electric cars, like the two that have been held in a bonded ware house in Melbourne for the past five years or so! Everyone could have one of those electric cars for local travel around town and shopping trips, then use your diesel/natural gas vehicle for long trips.

    (5) How about we use the now defunct Mitsubishi car plant in Adelaide to build an Australian version of electric car...Then exchange one of those locally built electric cars for a petrol/diesel vehicle with each family/household! Subsidized by our government of-course!

    (6) Water: Every year we get so much water in the Top End, the NT and Queensland, that people are glad to see the back of it when the dry comes in! Locals get flooded out! How about we “harvest” a lot of that wasted resource, water, for distribution throughout Australia to where it's needed! I believe it's the first time in our history that the federal and all state governments were of the same club, labor, so as our pollies are all from the same club, there should be no problem in them working together to build pipelines and pump stations to get water from the Top End to storage facilities in other states that need the water...like Victoria!

    (7) Tidal Electric Power Generating Plants: Again in the Top End we should be building power plants powered by the incoming and outgoing tides. Such power plants are in use in other parts of the world so why can't we Aussies build such plants here in the Top End, because of the great natural rise and fall of the tides, the Top End is the perfect place to build them, then feed the power into the grid for distribution to where it's required!

    I'm sure members of the forum can think of many other ways for us to use our natural resources and get to the stage where we don't need to import oil or food but I won't hold my breath waiting for any politician or political party to start the ball rolling. In my humble opinion, there's not one poly who has the balls or the foresight to implement any of the above schemes!

    If we leave things up to big business they “may” do something but you can bet your life they will charge the rest of us like wounded bulls for the service once things are in place!

    Like I stated at the start of this post, I firmly believe our government and tax system was/is a direct copy of the Westminster system but let us not forget, Westminster has “always” been known for it's greedy tax system and that tax system was the direct cause of the break-up of the British Empire! The USA being the first country in the British Empire to say, enough is enough! The yanks were of-course, referring to a greedy tax placed on them by the Brits so they opted out of the system!

    What do you think we should be doing to make things better for every Australian? Not just the chosen few!

    Cheers mates,

    Bill
    Who says you can't teach old dogs new tricks?
    This old dog has been learning new tricks for years and...
    I hope I can continue to do so!:cool:

  2. #12
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    Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    We all used too much oil and ............... it will be too expensive to use in a personal transporter. Of course the rules wont apply to the military and leaders.
    You have see the fuel rationing act then?
    cheers<BR>Chris.<BR>1990 landcruiser 80, 1HD-T two tank, copper pipe HE+ 20 plate FPHE, toyota solenoids and filters. 1978 300D, elsbett one tank system.<BR>

  3. #13
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    Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

    Got the old HQ one tonner V8 out of the shed the other day. Runs perfectly on LPG. Time to start keeping an alternative up ones sleave. Cannot see how the new hybrids are going to solve the problem as they stilll use petrol all but half as much. If this country was really serious they would look more closely at CNG in the short period. Our cousins across the Tasman having been using this stuff for the last 20 years.

  4. #14
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    Angry Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

    Quote Originally Posted by pangit View Post
    I hope I'm not sounding like a doomer, but I have no sympathy for people who don't think for themselves and think the government should do everything for them. And anyone who thinks we are going to see sub $1 petrol again needs to wake up and smell the coffee.
    Bloody hell pangit;25629, don't you have any compassion for people not as fortunate as yourself?
    First of all, the cost of fuels directly effects the cost of just about everything that people need to buy to live/exist! Food, clothing, travel and so much more! And governments placing a heavy GST and/or other taxes on fuel don't make it any easier for most people! Most of the people suffering are not politicians or bureaucrats, nor do they belong to a union that can cripple a country if their demands for more wages to “keep-up with the cost of living” are not met!

    Most of the people suffering are old age pensioners! And single old age pensioners are suffering more than couples! A lot of these pensioners served in our armed forces and they all had a hand in building this country! Today,.due to no fault of their own, they are caught between an old and a new pension system! And that is a big problem for them!

    A lot of today's pensioners fought in wars to make this a great country, (funny but I can't think of a single poly who did “any” time in our armed forces never mind fought for our country) they, pensioners, raised families, bought homes and help build the country! I bet my life not one of today's pensioners, ever expected they would be steeling bread and food to feed themselves and their pets when they got to pension age!

    Last time I checked, August 25th, 2006! A federal backbench MP's pay was $146,000 to $159,000, the Treasurer's pay was $223,000 and the Prime Minister's was $309,000. For perspective, the average full-time adult wage in Australia is $56,000. The average salary of the 10 best-paid corporate chiefs is $7.7 million.

    On the other hand Australian pensioners receive the following:
    Age Pension Payment Rates:
    Status Maximum Pension Rate Per Fortnight, Single $546.80, or $14,216.80 per year ...Couple $456.80 (each) That's $11,876.80 X 2 = $23,753.6 per couple per year!
    Note: The above payments includes a pension supplement that is currently: single $18.80, couples $15.80 each. Couples separated due to ill health receive $18.80 each. Woopie-Doooo. I believe that's per year!

    Now then, when a man or woman working hard needs a minimum of $56,000 per year, or $1076.923 per week to live on, and the lowest paid poly needs more than double that, $146,000, or $2807,70 (those figures are two years old and lets not forget the poly perks...like free limousine and fuel)
    Who, being of sound mind, can expect a pensioner, or anyone else for that matter, to live on $273.40 for a single person or $456.80 for a couple per week!!

    I have little or no compassion for anyone who squanders their “fabulous” pension...or other low income on any form of gambling, when every cent is needed just to pay standard bills, the kind of bills we all have, like buying food, paying rent or mortgage, electricity, water, gas, clothing and footwear, rates, home and contents insurance, life insurance!
    But I do have compassion for “anyone” pensioners or not, who through no fault of their own, are forced into steeling food just to exist! Bloody oath mate! This is Australia! Not Biafra or any other poverty ridden poor country! Does it make me angry? Blood oath it makes me angry! And when I see “every” poly gets a great income, great perks and retire from politics rich men and women...never having to worry about "anything"! Bloody oath it makes me wild!

    Now I have to cool down and go get a meal going for my wife's lunch.

    Bill
    Who says you can't teach old dogs new tricks?
    This old dog has been learning new tricks for years and...
    I hope I can continue to do so!:cool:

  5. #15
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    Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

    Quote Originally Posted by smokey2 View Post
    If this country was really serious they would look more closely at CNG in the short period. Our cousins across the Tasman having been using this stuff for the last 20 years.
    You got that right smokey2, but by the time our Aussie pollies wake-up to using NG, in any forum, to help solve our fuel problems...short term, they will have sold the lot! We will have to import NG from China, India and the other countries...who are at present buying "our" NG at give away prices! I bet we Aussies don't get to use our own NG in our small vehicles!
    Who says you can't teach old dogs new tricks?
    This old dog has been learning new tricks for years and...
    I hope I can continue to do so!:cool:

  6. #16
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    Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

    Tidal Electric Power Generating Plants
    You got to wonder why not kando.

    Looking at it myself, the tidal hight difference in Darwin is fairly dramatic - why is it not utilized ?

  7. #17
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    Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

    Quote Originally Posted by CHEVY View Post
    Looking at it myself, the tidal hight difference in Darwin is fairly dramatic - why is it not utilized ?
    Hay Chevy, how would you propose to capture the tidal energy?

  8. #18
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    Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

    Hay Chevy, how would you propose to capture the tidal energy?
    Whoops, I've been caught out doing idle speculation and with little info...

    I remember vaguely many years ago a chap drove a toyota Land cruiser across the bottom of Darwin harbour. I think a snorkle was used to air the motor.

    Probably the harbour is not that deep so a barracaide weir of power turbines could be possible. Boatys mightent like it though.

    The tide level changes can be big, but are the tides reliable... ?

    Cost ?

    Another option could be many smaller water power turbines around the many tidal creeks.

  9. #19
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    Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

    G'day janiebabes,

    You are quite right, there is really very little the Australian government can do, of practical value, to lower petrol prices. However people do have a right to complain at this government, as Messrs Rudd and Swan both raised expectations of lowering petrol prices were they elected. I'm afraid that both these gentlemen probably believed that such cynical posturing would either be forgotten when the current oil spike went into a downslide and they could claim the credit for wise policy!!

    Unfortunately, the expected downturn did not occur.

    The current high price of oil is the combination of a series of complex factors, the drop in the US dollar resulting in huge speculative investment favouring oil instead of gold, the unprecedented rapid growth of an affluent middle class in previously third world nations pushing world demand, disruptions to several major oilfield's just when older fields are becoming less productive etc..etc..

    Although alternative fuel technology is developing, each has a very long way to go to reach the efficiency or reliable convenience of oil.

    Oil companies are always targeted as the bad guys in any scenario, but in the modern real world, such loony left rantings are easily dismissed as illogical fantasies.

    I believe 21st century transport energy needs will be supplied by a combination of energy sources. Maritime fuel, bunker and diesel with be replaced by bio-diesel produced from specialized non food competitive feed stock. personal transport by electric vehicle powered by super efficient power stations fuel by whatever power source available to that that nation or region. NZ for instance, has abundant hydro-electric and some geothermal, power, Australia has large reserves of natural gas and Nuclear, etc.

    All of these available sources may one day be supplemented or replaced by solar, tide, wind, or techniques yet undiscovered.

    However, in the near future as the US recovers from recession, and speculation recedes, oil remains the planets only reliable world wide mass consumer energy choice.

    Contrary to all the ranting from the extreme green/failed socialists, most major oil companies are deeply concerned with wasting expensively obtained oil resources on the least profitable products, petrol and diesel. These companies invest heavily in discovering alternate fuel technology, hoping to relieve the pressure on supplying a low profit margin product in favour of more profitable product derived from oil.

    If you want to travel more economically , buy an electric scooter/bike and watch for the rapid improvements in battery technology that will soon be able to safely power a car.

  10. #20
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    Lightbulb Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

    Quote Originally Posted by CHEVY View Post
    Whoops, I've been caught out doing idle speculation and with little info...

    I remember vaguely many years ago a chap drove a toyota Land cruiser across the bottom of Darwin harbour. I think a snorkle was used to air the motor.

    Probably the harbour is not that deep so a barracaide weir of power turbines could be possible. Boatys mightent like it though.

    The tide level changes can be big, but are the tides reliable... ?

    Cost ?

    Another option could be many smaller water power turbines around the many tidal creeks.
    There are many places like, inlets/estuaries, creeks, dam overflow and such, suitable to place water powered turbines and generate electricity. We could even build “pretty large” water powered turbines onshore in workshops/factories, fitted in large cradles, then anchor the cradles/turbines offshore so that the incoming and outgoing tide would run the turbines and generate loads of power for our use.
    Off-course it would cost money but the projects would pay for themselves over time and it would be clean power and to a large extent...FREE POWER! Hopefully our pollies would NOT sell the projects off to big business!
    By the way, our pollies, and many other pollies in our part of the world, seem dead set on using atomic power stations for power generating, well folks, I don't know where our pollies, and other pollies from neighbouring countries live, but every-day Aussies like myself live in a part of the world that suffers from earthquakes, not very often I know but we do have earthquakes! Our poor neighbours suffer from earthquakes, Tsunamis and what not and atomic power, in my humble opinion should not even be a consideration for our neighbours or for Australia!
    On the other hand, here in Australia we are lucky to have, around our coast, many sites suitable to install water powered turbines and generate electricity. We have sites in WA, the NT, QL. We also have sites near or on existing dams in the mountains of NSW and Vic' and if we also used anchored cradles/turbines offshore on remote beaches...we could generate more power than we need!
    Building a water powered turbine is not difficult, the knowledge to build them has been around since the mid 1700s! For interest check this URL: Water turbine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    To further help people suffering with rising fuel cost, how about Mr John Brumby, creating a “classification” to permit a full electric car on Victorian roads? NSW and SA already have a “classification” to permit a full electric car on their roads...Why is Victoria lagging behind? Perhaps a car builder in Harcourt, Victoria knows something the rest of us don't know! We can buy a full on electric car from Europe, India or the USA, prices are around $8,000 to $13,000! See: Electric Bikes, Scooters and other Light Electric Vehicles (LEV) Or people can wait for the Aussie electric car then buy the local electric car, called the Blade Runner developed in Harcourt, Victoria where the builder is planning to have 1000 Blade Runners (electric cars) on the market by 2009 selling at $35,000!

    Me, I'll be looking into building my own electric car...If Brumby ever creates a classification in Victoria...And I'll use my electric car for getting around locally, like doing the shopping, visiting Doctors, friends and rellies and I don't think it will cost me $35,000 to build my electric car!
    I'll keep the Disco TDi for pulling the caravan up north on fishing trips! That way I'll have the best of both worlds...if Brumby gives me half a chance!

    Cheers,

    Bill
    Last edited by kando; 9th June 2008 at 06:42 PM.
    Who says you can't teach old dogs new tricks?
    This old dog has been learning new tricks for years and...
    I hope I can continue to do so!:cool:

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