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Thread: 80 Series Landcruiser Turbo SVO problems??

  1. #1
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    Unhappy 80 Series Landcruiser Turbo SVO problems??

    Hello everyone,

    I have a 1992 80 series Turbo diesel, I understand to be a 1HD T and have just installed a Helton Dual Coil HE to before and after the stock fuel filter. However 2 problems have arisen since the instal and I am not sure what to do.

    Firstly, the engine will not run at all on the WVO - in main 95 ltr tank - just dies (loses power and stalls when driving along highway if I put the clutch in) I change back to the auxiliary tank (diesel) and pump the accellerator furiously and eventually the motor starts to pull again.

    Secondly, since running on the WVO (or since installing the HE) the engine will not pull past 3000rpm as it used to if I pushed it and with that I can only get about 85 to 90 km/h and only if I 'feather'?? the accelerator - if I put it flat to the floor it slows down. When driving at this speed, it seems to slow slightly every now and again for a second as if starving of fuel. It does seem to pull fairly strongly at lower revs, up to about 2500, where it won't pull any more and I have to change gear. It has been suggested that I may have air in the system, but I recall when I have forgotton to changeover to my aux tank before running dry on the main, (this was with diesel in both tanks before the conversion) it took about 15 second for the diesel to come through but then it ran fine again. So I am not convinced that I need to bleed the system unless the HE has something to do with it now.

    I have filtered the oil warm - about 60 deg - to 5 micron , the heat exchanger is working - it gets quite hot and the diesel flows through the same lines and works in the engine sort of ok (as above).
    I am hoping I haven't screwed anything up - injectors especially. I do have a new fuel filter, but haven't fitted it yet. The fuel hose is the right size for the Toyota fittings (3/8"???) but too big for the HE by a size. I have had to tighten the clamps pretty hard, they don't pull off, but I am not convinced they are sealing properly. I wondered if at higher revs when the engine is sucking harder it therefore may be more likely to suck air if there are any leaks. This may explain the diesel problem, but doesn't explain why the engine won't run on WVO.
    I have a mixture of Cottonsead oil and Frytol (I think) and I have been told that Frytol has a high fat content. I had hoped to use the remaining Frytol sucessfully with the HE. Both the oils I have used are from the top 1/4 of 2 200 litre tanks which have been sitting for about 2 weeks and which were heated electrically from the top so as not to 'mix' the oil up.
    It has also been suggested that I install another fuel pump closer to the WVO tank to assist.

    I guess I just can't understand why it won't run at all on WVO and then I am also hoping I haven't done some serious harm to the engine.

    Thanks in advance for your helpful advice.

    Richard

  2. #2
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    Sep 2006
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    Re: 80 Series Landcruiser Turbo SVO problems??

    Quote Originally Posted by Richarddb View Post
    Hello everyone,

    I have a 1992 80 series Turbo diesel, I understand to be a 1HD T and have just installed a Helton Dual Coil HE to before and after the stock fuel filter. However 2 problems have arisen since the instal and I am not sure what to do.

    Firstly, the engine will not run at all on the WVO - in main 95 ltr tank - just dies (loses power and stalls when driving along highway if I put the clutch in) I change back to the auxiliary tank (diesel) and pump the accellerator furiously and eventually the motor starts to pull again.

    Secondly, since running on the WVO (or since installing the HE) the engine will not pull past 3000rpm as it used to if I pushed it and with that I can only get about 85 to 90 km/h and only if I 'feather'?? the accelerator - if I put it flat to the floor it slows down. When driving at this speed, it seems to slow slightly every now and again for a second as if starving of fuel. It does seem to pull fairly strongly at lower revs, up to about 2500, where it won't pull any more and I have to change gear. It has been suggested that I may have air in the system, but I recall when I have forgotton to changeover to my aux tank before running dry on the main, (this was with diesel in both tanks before the conversion) it took about 15 second for the diesel to come through but then it ran fine again. So I am not convinced that I need to bleed the system unless the HE has something to do with it now.

    I have filtered the oil warm - about 60 deg - to 5 micron , the heat exchanger is working - it gets quite hot and the diesel flows through the same lines and works in the engine sort of ok (as above).
    I am hoping I haven't screwed anything up - injectors especially. I do have a new fuel filter, but haven't fitted it yet. The fuel hose is the right size for the Toyota fittings (3/8"???) but too big for the HE by a size. I have had to tighten the clamps pretty hard, they don't pull off, but I am not convinced they are sealing properly. I wondered if at higher revs when the engine is sucking harder it therefore may be more likely to suck air if there are any leaks. This may explain the diesel problem, but doesn't explain why the engine won't run on WVO.
    I have a mixture of Cottonsead oil and Frytol (I think) and I have been told that Frytol has a high fat content. I had hoped to use the remaining Frytol sucessfully with the HE. Both the oils I have used are from the top 1/4 of 2 200 litre tanks which have been sitting for about 2 weeks and which were heated electrically from the top so as not to 'mix' the oil up.
    It has also been suggested that I install another fuel pump closer to the WVO tank to assist.

    I guess I just can't understand why it won't run at all on WVO and then I am also hoping I haven't done some serious harm to the engine.

    Thanks in advance for your helpful advice.

    Richard
    Hi Richard,

    I have marked some what you mentioned in bold to point at where I think you went wrong.

    Using the stock filter with the helton HE would only work if you use blend of diesel and WVO "cold filtered to 1 micron".

    Warm filtering frytol at 60 degrees C to 5 micron means nothing. Fat is there and will block your poor stock filter right away. This is why you are experiencing starvation and loss of power etc.

    Helton twin HE are wonderful and they do work perfectly well the way you have set it up. "I have the same set up in one of my cars.

    You should have ordered your Helton to suit your hose size. Yes. Tony at Helton HE can make them to order. Even the direction of barbs can be made to order to suit your engine bay.

    The type of filter needs to change to a higher flow rate. And the wvo has to be cold filtered to 1 or 5 micron max.

    So far I do not thing you caused any harm but you will if you continue starving your IP/engine.

    Good luck
    Fitian
    <><

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
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    Tasmania
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    Re: 80 Series Landcruiser Turbo SVO problems??

    G'day Richard, you're experiencing the same problems most people have when they start so don 't worry to much and Fitians advice is spot on.

    You will probably need a fuel pump or bigger lines from your veg tank to the HE and filters depending on the type you use, it may be more convenient to place the pump just before the HE so you don't have to change the tank set up and Ebay has a wide range available. You should also think about installing an in line throw away filter after the HE and changeover to save your main filter. if yo put the filter befoer the changeover, it may clog with temperature changes whilst sitting with cold veg. If it's after the changeover, then it gets flushed with dino every time you switch which extend your filter life. Expect to change the throw away filter pretty regularly so always have a couple in the car and use butterfly clamps for the filter so they are easy to change

    I also use Helton HE's, for your bigger intake barbs on the HE, get some plumbers tape and wrap it around a few times to thicken the barb, I had to do this on one car and it's been like that for years without leaks.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    Grafton, NSW, Australia
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    7

    Re: 80 Series Landcruiser Turbo SVO problems??

    Hi Fitian,

    Thanks for your quick reply.

    Yes, I didn't realise that I needed to specify the application vehicle when I ordered the HE - a big oversight on my part. I do now so I will order the correct one.

    I said 'stock filter' before, but remember now that it is a Ryco Z380, is that a high flow filter? The replacement one I bought is the same type. It screws straight on to the stock housing.

    Should I just use the remaining Frytol mix, including whats in my tank, to make Biodiesel rather than putting it raw through my tank? I have a fair bit more of Cottonseed oil I could use for SVO. Would that work ok as SVO or do I need to mix it with bio/dino? Are you suggesting a mix for my vehicle because of the oil mixture I am using or the use of a stock filter or both? ( I assume that a Ryco would not be stock as I incorrectly said in my earlier post?)

    Should I be cold filtering both the Cottonseed and Frytol oils to 1 micron or were your saying 1 micron cold for the Frytol to remove the fat?

    Sorry if I am asking questions asked elsewhere. I have trawled through a lot of the posts/threads and could find the answers I was looking for.

    Thanks again
    Richard

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Grafton, NSW, Australia
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    Re: 80 Series Landcruiser Turbo SVO problems??

    Hi Alga,

    Thanks for your quick reply too. Also useful advice and I am beginning to feel better about where I am at in the process.

    Do you have any thoughts on my other questions in post 4?

    Thanks guys
    Richard

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
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    931

    Re: 80 Series Landcruiser Turbo SVO problems??

    HI,

    You are running a direct injection engine so MUST make sure you properly purge the injectors prior to shutting down. Your injectors are expensive two stage units and it is BrianW's experience that they need proper purging prior to shutdown otherwise they gunge up, don't spray properly and suffer all the consequences listed in the FAQ at the top of the forum. Not so long ago, forum members were nervous about running SVO in Direct Injection engines. A few of us have proven it works, but you do need to take a bit of extra care.

    Others have said the Helton is fine. The research conducted by Tony measuring in and out temperatures show the Helton produce great shower units, but don't produce the extra heat generally regarded as being useful for our purposes. A 30 plate flat plate unit is the best to go for.

    I have used Cottonseed oil with good success. Frytol will go gluggy, I'd drop it from your tanks. The alternative is to develop heated lines and heated tanks, then you will be well set up for the future and will not have to worry too much about the type of oil you have. You have been lucky with the frytol that it is summer. in winter it will glugg up completely.

    I don't subscribe to the pre pump idea. I don't believe they are necessary if you increase the size of your fuel hose to 12mm or 16mm. BrianW has a Vormax filter right down the back of his 80 series and his standard IP sucks the oil through the vormax and up the engine with 12mm rubber lines with success. The vormax adds a significant load to the suction of the IP, yet it still works okay. Increased hose size is an easy long term fix.

    You mentioned the oil and diesel go through the same lines. Where is your changeover valving?? It needs to be as close as feasible to the IP, and preferably with two quite separate fuel supply systems right up to the change over valving.

    You will not wreck anything with filtering at 5 micron and not 1 micron. Remember the standard vehicle filter is about 15 micron, so all you are gaining by filtering less than this is reducing the risk of changing filters on the road. This is an excellent thing to avoid, but those who focus on 1 micron filtering are over doing it IMHO. I run to 5 micron without problems. If your setup is for 1 micron, that's good -just don't fret too much about it.

    Your choice of filter is done by cost and ease of changing. There is much debate on the finer aspects of your filter which you can get into once your vehicle is running well.

    From your initial posting, your problem is that you're not getting suitable fuel into your IP when on WVO. That is resolved by increased hose size, ensuring your oil is heated effectively before changeover, ensuring your oil flows properly, and that you have no air leaks in your suction lines.

    It is also not a bad idea once you have dropped your frytol, to put 30 litres of diesel into your WVO tank and ensure the system works properly. Then add 30 litres of Cottonseed and run on that mix for a while whilst you are getting used to your new project and getting used to purge times, warm up times etc etc. Eventually you will get to 100% WVO. Don't run on heated diesel for too long, so perhaps turn off the Helton with the coolant tap you've installed for this purpose.

    Once your fundamental system issues have resolved, excellent. Then focus on determining a good purge time. You can tell when your injectors are using diesel as your engine will get back it's diesel rattle a bit, and when you blip your accelerator you will get black smoke out the exhaust. Both those will reduce on WVO.

    I hope this is useful.


    Tim
    Last edited by Tim-HJ61; 10th January 2010 at 07:09 PM.
    Toyota Landcruiser 1988 HJ61 Manual Wagon
    12H-T turbo Direct Injection.
    Twin Tank setup runs on 100% WVO after warm up. 30 plate FPHE with 80C output, 12mm fuel lines
    Start up and shut down electric fuel pump feeds IP direct.
    Front 4WDSytstems Lokka, Rear ARB airlokka for quick escapes up sandhills. Performance GTurbo with 600mm FMIC gives 450nm @ 1700rpm at 20psi boost.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
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    WA
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    Re: 80 Series Landcruiser Turbo SVO problems??

    Richard,
    Thanks for the phone call last night. I am glad you took my advice to post your issue here.
    Welcome to the Forum.

    You have had a lot of good advice since your post.

    I will try to summarise what I see are relevant to your vehicle:
    • Frytol is not a suitable fuel unless you have a fully heated fuel system or ambient temperatures are >40C daily. Use it to make good summer biodiesel and up to 25% in the mix for winter biodiesel, but allow the fuel to settle and cool to ambient to permit any high melting point (HMP) biodiesel to settle out. Keep this sediment for summer fuel.
    • Your diesel fuel filter is likely to be partly blocked with solidified Frytol, limiting your fuel supply to the IP. If you replace this filter, your engine performance should return to normal.
    • Gravity is your friend, allow your liquid veggie oil to settle for as long a time as you can. This will allow the fats to settle out along with most of the solid contaminants. Do a search on "up flow filtering" for some descriptions of the filtering systems some members, including David and Tim, use.
      Well settled oil will flow through your fuel processing filter easily and it may not need cleaning/replacing for many thousands of litres of oil filtered.
    • Cold filtering is used to remove fats from the veggie oil which may block fuel filters.
    • Your vehicle is particularly susceptible to injector failure if you do not reliably purge the oil from the IP and injectors before shut down. Tim has suggested using a duplicated fuel system to minimise the time it takes to purge effectively. This would also have eliminated the problems you had with diesel when you changed back from veggie.
    • Diesel tanks accumulate a sludge on the walls which is released when using biodiesel or veggie oil. Adding an inexpensive fuel filter before the main fuel filter is cheap insurance (protecting the larger, more expensive main fuel filter) and by using the "butterfly" hose clamps, replacement can be easily done in seconds, on the side of the road, without any tools required.
    • Your IP pumps heaps more fuel than it uses, returning the excess to the tank. Flow restrictions caused by high viscosity fuel can cause the IP to be unable to provide optimal fuel injection pressures. Tim suggested providing a large diameter fuel line from the veggie tank to the engine bay. This is not an expensive option if you use nylon air line and fittings.
    • While your fuel filter is probably rated at 15 micron, filtering to 1 micron, during fuel processing, does not cost any more, and may contribute to longer vehicle filter life.
    • The Helton HE can be ordered with connections to suit your vehicle fuel system.


    It is important to note that David's vehicle, like mine, is a Mercedes 300D so the majority of our experience is with that vehicle. Similarly, Tim's vehicle is a HJ61 and his experience may be more in tune with what you need to do to manage your vehicle's fuel system. Tim has done tests using a number of heat exchangers and settled on the 30 plate FPHE as it gave better performance in that vehicle. This is, if I recall correctly, an issue of fuel flow not allowing the fuel temperature to rise adequately using smaller HEs.


    I am looking forward to the resolution of your problems and some feedback on our advice.

    Best wishes,

    Tony
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    Toyota Camry Hybrid - (Wife's Car)

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 All body panels, headlights, interior engine and ECU available.


    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  8. #8
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    Jan 2010
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    Re: 80 Series Landcruiser Turbo SVO problems??

    Hi Everybody,

    thank you so much for your thoughts and ideas. BrianW was also available to talk via phone which was very useful too especially in discussing the details associated with the 80 Series LC.

    I will go through all this information and work out what appears to be a good direction to take and I will post the results here.

    Thanks again
    Richard

  9. #9
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    Dec 2005
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
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    Re: 80 Series Landcruiser Turbo SVO problems??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Jones View Post

    In my belief, you are better off with a single fuel system with one set of potential trouble points than doubling them. Few if any cars come with a second fuel system and if you get the first one right, the second side is of no benefit in the real world anyway.
    Dave,

    Some of your suggestions are quite useful and relevant, but unless i am misreading this sentence, you appear to be advocating for a single tank system to a man who is running a direct injection vehicle. This is misleading and should never be endorsed. It is incorrect to say that a second fuel supply system is of no benefit in a direct injection vehicle, when it is completely essential when aiming to run 100% WVO.

    What I expect you are saying is that because your changeover valves are at the rear of the car, you are prepared to put up with a long purge time in a two tank setup and using the standard fuel system to transfer both diesel and WVO to the engine to avoid any problems with duplicating the fuel lines. That's not how it's commonly done for speed of purging, but it obviously works for you, so fair enough. I'm not wanting to enter a debate about your setup, just wanting to clarify for any future readers of this thread.

    Tim
    Last edited by Tim-HJ61; 11th January 2010 at 10:39 PM.
    Toyota Landcruiser 1988 HJ61 Manual Wagon
    12H-T turbo Direct Injection.
    Twin Tank setup runs on 100% WVO after warm up. 30 plate FPHE with 80C output, 12mm fuel lines
    Start up and shut down electric fuel pump feeds IP direct.
    Front 4WDSytstems Lokka, Rear ARB airlokka for quick escapes up sandhills. Performance GTurbo with 600mm FMIC gives 450nm @ 1700rpm at 20psi boost.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Mount Gambier
    Posts
    950

    Re: 80 Series Landcruiser Turbo SVO problems??

    [/QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Richarddb View Post
    Hello everyone,

    I have a 1992 80 series Turbo diesel, I understand to be a 1HD T and have just installed a Helton Dual Coil HE to before and after the stock fuel filter. However 2 problems have arisen since the instal and I am not sure what to do.

    Firstly, the engine will not run at all on the WVO - in main 95 ltr tank - just dies (loses power and stalls when driving along highway if I put the clutch in) I change back to the auxiliary tank (diesel) and pump the accellerator furiously and eventually the motor starts to pull again.
    (as far as I understand) is that toyota fuel solenoids operate by a spring and an electromagnet. The electromagnet is strong, but the spring not so (after all the electromagnet needs to overpower it) With some vacum on the inlet (from the veg oil) the spring starts to close off, shutting off the fuel. You will need to change to orientation of the valve so its "power on for veggie oil" not power off. (I have tried mine both ways, and they dont work one way) What is happening is you are starving the engine trying to run on veg, and it takes a bit to re-prime it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richarddb View Post
    Secondly, since running on the WVO (or since installing the HE) the engine will not pull past 3000rpm as it used to if I pushed it and with that I can only get about 85 to 90 km/h and only if I 'feather'?? the accelerator - if I put it flat to the floor it slows down. When driving at this speed, it seems to slow slightly every now and again for a second as if starving of fuel. It does seem to pull fairly strongly at lower revs, up to about 2500, where it won't pull any more and I have to change gear. It has been suggested that I may have air in the system, but I recall when I have forgotton to changeover to my aux tank before running dry on the main, (this was with diesel in both tanks before the conversion) it took about 15 second for the diesel to come through but then it ran fine again. So I am not convinced that I need to bleed the system unless the HE has something to do with it now.
    I think the filter is blocked with fats as others have said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richarddb View Post
    I have filtered the oil warm - about 60 deg - to 5 micron , the heat exchanger is working - it gets quite hot and the diesel flows through the same lines and works in the engine sort of ok (as above).
    I am hoping I haven't screwed anything up - injectors especially. I do have a new fuel filter, but haven't fitted it yet. The fuel hose is the right size for the Toyota fittings (3/8"???) but too big for the HE by a size. I have had to tighten the clamps pretty hard, they don't pull off, but I am not convinced they are sealing properly. I wondered if at higher revs when the engine is sucking harder it therefore may be more likely to suck air if there are any leaks. This may explain the diesel problem, but doesn't explain why the engine won't run on WVO.
    The injector pumps dont like air. I used a variable speed drill on a pump to pull oil through the system at about 100l/hr (what I guessed for full throttle fuel use) and chased leaks with clear hose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richarddb View Post
    I have a mixture of Cottonsead oil and Frytol (I think) and I have been told that Frytol has a high fat content. I had hoped to use the remaining Frytol sucessfully with the HE. Both the oils I have used are from the top 1/4 of 2 200 litre tanks which have been sitting for about 2 weeks and which were heated electrically from the top so as not to 'mix' the oil up.
    It has also been suggested that I install another fuel pump closer to the WVO tank to assist.
    I havent found a pump unnecesary, but others use them. I think the fats have blocked up your filters, which is causing fuel starving problems on both veggie and diesel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richarddb View Post
    I guess I just can't understand why it won't run at all on WVO and then I am also hoping I haven't done some serious harm to the engine.

    Thanks in advance for your helpful advice.

    Richard
    I would doubt you have done serious harm to the engine, but I think you have a lot of work ahead to move the changeover solenoids and adding another filter.

    I am presuming you have added the fuel heaters and left the rest of the system stock. The problem is the fuel filter needs to be flushed completely between changes. From my expirence with a gemini it could take a few thousand KS. (no, I am not joking) A merc is highly tolerant of blends, 1HDT's not so. What needs to happen is to add another fuel filter for veggie oil (under the bonnet) and move the solenoids from under the car in between the tanks to after the filters. I also found the CAV filters leaked air (and as I have said previously I may be an idiot in not getting it to seal, but in that case toyota ones are reasonably idiot proof) I use another toyota fuel filter.
    Dont forget a fuel vac guage to see when the filters are getting blocked.
    cheers<BR>Chris.<BR>1990 landcruiser 80, 1HD-T two tank, copper pipe HE+ 20 plate FPHE, toyota solenoids and filters. 1978 300D, elsbett one tank system.<BR>

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