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Thread: Loss of power

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    82

    Loss of power

    Hi Everyone,

    I have got a 3rd generation (1996) Hilux Surf, that I have converted to wvo over 1 and half years ago and have done about 22000 Kms since. I have got a dual tank set up and so far everything was running well.

    I am using a delphi filter for the vegie oil and usually change it after about 3000 kms. Occasionally after switching over from diesel the engine light may come on, which is kind of indicating that I need to change the delphi filter. I switch back to diesel for like 30 secs in this case to let the oil warm up in the filter now that it had a splash of hot oil enter into the filter. Then after a short while it starts running through the filter and all is fine. In the next few days I take the first opportunity to change the filter. When I change it, it goes back to normal then I have another 2-5000km before the next filter.

    About a week ago the engine light started to come on again. I switched to diesel, but the light seems to have come back even on diesel and the car still had less than normal power. I thought that it was strange and changed the delphi veg filter the next day. However, things did not improve. Over the next day or so the car started to struggle when going uphill, so I thought something more serious was going on, hoping that it was not the IP.

    I have then extracted the error code out of the computer, and had an error 14, which says this:

    The fault code 14 is for "Timing Control System Malfunction"
    This indicates a problem with one of these systems:
    -Open or short in timing control valve circuit
    -Fuel Filter (clogging)
    -Fuel (Freezing, Air in)
    -Injection Pump (internal pressure and timing control valve)
    -Engine ECU
    Also, found this article:
    I have a problem with an 03 hilux with a 1KZ-TE ... - JustAnswer

    So, to be sure, I have changed the diesel filter as well and found that it was quite dirty. I have not put veg oil into my diesel tank apart from 2 or 3 occasions when on a long trip. I have done this to be prudent so that the filter problem is eliminated on both tanks now.

    I have considered that maybe I am getting some air in the fuel. If that is the case then this must be happening after the Pollack valve as it happens on both circuits. I have got rid of the pollack valve and connected the IP hose to the diesel filter directly.

    The interesting point was that every time I did something, things became worse. Initially, the car was struggling above 3000RPM. When I changed the diesel filter, the car was struggling above 2000RPM. After removing the Pollack from the equation now I can't even get much up above 1000 RPM.

    Next suspicion is the IP or the timing control circuit valve. I have now visited a diesel specialist and he said that for sure I have stuffed the IP and need to have it fixed for $2k+ and might as well have my injectors replaced while I am at it. I am now looking at a $3k bill and have to wait 3 weeks just to get in and have it fixed :-(.

    Thinking back now, I have kind of felt for a while that the car was not pulling as strong as it used to, but was kind of not sure as it was probably a gradual loss. But it seems that it may have started a while ago, however only became severe in the last week or so.

    Is it likely that I have stuffed up my IP? What do they need to do with it? Can a general mechaninc deal with this or should I take it to a diesel specialist? Is there something I could do?

    In terms of wvo, when I get the oil home, I let it sit several weeks in the containers, then poor the clean oil over a green bag. Then let it sit again. Then pump it through a 5 u filter bag and then put it through my up flow system made of 3 barrels. The last barrel is the one I use for my fuel and also dry the oil in this one. I use an idea from Dave Jones for drying and just run the hose back to the barrel while the pump is running so that it all bubbles (thanks Dave!). Then I run a hair dryer over the bubbling oil to replace the air in the barrel with drier air. I do this for about 2 hours. To be honest I am not completely happy with my drying - I always thought that I will need to work on this more. But so far things looked ok.

    My oil seems fairly nice when filling the car, so I am not sure what I have done wrong. I have however observed that a greasy gray material seems to deposit in the filter and in some places. So I am wondering if my IP is basically has got the same stuff in it and may just need a clean?

    Any ideas are very much appreciated as I am getting very desperate. As you can tell I am not very mechanical with an engine although I have done my own conversion and spare tank set up etc.

    Thanks for any help!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    621

    Re: Loss of power

    If this happened to me with my 5L Hiace, I'd use the separate tank method to diagnose the problem. Basically get a 20L plastic container.... clean it thoroughly.... fill with clean diesel and a good dose of injector cleaner....... sit it on the passenger side floor..... run feed and return lines using that clear nylon air line to/from the IP & 20L, without a filter...... drive...... Do a good few kms.
    With any luck this will tell you immediately if the problem is in the filter/lines/tank or IP. A few km's will also clean up the IP and injectors.
    Also worth a look at is the IP inlet strainer if it has one.
    I hope this is applicable to your vehicle & its' system?
    Good luck. Let us know.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    NZ
    Posts
    27

    Re: Loss of power

    Hey mate this might be of a little use... Not sure if its the same problem but similar symptoms to a problem I had last year. Loss of power up top but would run ok down low, turned out I wasn't heating the oil enough and it wore the internal injection advance, i think the advance works when the internal pressure of the pump builds it advances the timing, well this piston that reacts to the pressure wore (oil to thick and no lubrication) and pressure couldn't build up so wouldnt advance the timing and had no power it struggled to get to 3000rpm. This was a bosch type pump on a delica van. Hope this helps

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,075

    Re: Loss of power

    Quote Originally Posted by marsden View Post
    Hey mate this might be of a little use... Not sure if its the same problem but similar symptoms to a problem I had last year. Loss of power up top but would run ok down low, turned out I wasn't heating the oil enough and it wore the internal injection advance, i think the advance works when the internal pressure of the pump builds it advances the timing, well this piston that reacts to the pressure wore (oil to thick and no lubrication) and pressure couldn't build up so wouldnt advance the timing and had no power it struggled to get to 3000rpm. This was a bosch type pump on a delica van. Hope this helps
    I find this strange, veg oil has much better lubrication properties than diesel.

    Was this the explanation from the Injection mechanic?

    While it is more viscous, I have only seen reports of wear on the CAV rotary IPs due to the extremely fine tolerances in that make of IP. They also tend to shear the drive shaft if using cold oil. The Bosch IPs are much more suited to veg oil use.

    Regards,
    Tony
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    Toyota Camry Hybrid - (Wife's Car)

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]



    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    NZ
    Posts
    27

    Re: Loss of power

    Yes was diesel mech that said thats what went wrong with it, I suspect was also because the return line mesh had blocked and was full of oil from cold, possibly why not lubing.

    I note on this there was no corrosion internally and no evidence of any gumming or crap in there.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Lake Macquarie (just south of Newcastle) NSW
    Posts
    1,363

    Re: Loss of power

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by marsden
    Hey mate this might be of a little use... Not sure if its the same problem but similar symptoms to a problem I had last year. Loss of power up top but would run ok down low, turned out I wasn't heating the oil enough and it wore the internal injection advance, i think the advance works when the internal pressure of the pump builds it advances the timing, well this piston that reacts to the pressure wore (oil to thick and no lubrication) and pressure couldn't build up so wouldnt advance the timing and had no power it struggled to get to 3000rpm. This was a bosch type pump on a delica van. Hope this helps


    Quote Originally Posted by marsden View Post
    Yes was diesel mech that said thats what went wrong with it, I suspect was also because the return line mesh had blocked and was full of oil from cold, possibly why not lubing.

    I note on this there was no corrosion internally and no evidence of any gumming or crap in there.
    Using WVO will not cause wear unless it is not filtered enough and particles are coming through to cause the wear.
    More likely is that the mechanism was worn by running on distillate that is only filtered by the on vehicle filter. The on vehicle filter is not as fine as most of us filter our WVO.
    Oil too thick will not cause no lubrication. Oil too thick may cause increased pressure = premature advance. If the mechanism is worn then it may work ok on WVO and not on the thinner distillate because it can't build up the pressure on the thinner fuel.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Lake Macquarie (just south of Newcastle) NSW
    Posts
    1,363

    Re: Loss of power

    Quote Originally Posted by surfie View Post
    Hi Everyone,

    I have got a 3rd generation (1996) Hilux Surf, that I have converted to wvo over 1 and half years ago and have done about 22000 Kms since. I have got a dual tank set up and so far everything was running well.
    How many km in total has your engine done?

    Quote Originally Posted by surfie View Post
    I am using a delphi filter for the vegie oil and usually change it after about 3000 kms. Occasionally after switching over from diesel the engine light may come on, which is kind of indicating that I need to change the delphi filter. I switch back to diesel for like 30 secs in this case to let the oil warm up in the filter now that it had a splash of hot oil enter into the filter. Then after a short while it starts running through the filter and all is fine. In the next few days I take the first opportunity to change the filter. When I change it, it goes back to normal then I have another 2-5000km before the next filter.

    About a week ago the engine light started to come on again. I switched to diesel, but the light seems to have come back even on diesel and the car still had less than normal power. I thought that it was strange and changed the delphi veg filter the next day. However, things did not improve. Over the next day or so the car started to struggle when going uphill, so I thought something more serious was going on, hoping that it was not the IP.

    I have then extracted the error code out of the computer, and had an error 14, which says this:

    The fault code 14 is for "Timing Control System Malfunction"
    This indicates a problem with one of these systems:
    -Open or short in timing control valve circuit
    -Fuel Filter (clogging)
    -Fuel (Freezing, Air in)
    -Injection Pump (internal pressure and timing control valve)
    -Engine ECU
    So you have a "Timing Control System Malfunction" OR a fuel supply problem that is causing the timing control to appear to malfunction.
    In the past you have had the light come on when you switched to WVO. This is because the integral lift pump is struggling to drag the cold WVO through the filter and can't supply the needed pressure to the timing control system. Warming the oil solves the problem. Changing the filter solves the problem. When the same problem occurs on distillate it means the distillate filter is clogged and when you change that filter it solves the problem. That's what has been happening in the past. It may be that the integral lift pump is worn and continually working on the margin. As soon as 'something' makes it a little harder for the integral lift pump it fails to generate the required pressure. Whenever that 'something' is fixed it just copes again. If this has been the case in the past then it may be that the wear in the integral lift pump is getting rapidly worse and is no longer coping. So now fixing the 'something' (clogged filter or thick oil) does not allow it to just cope. If this is the case then you do need to have the IP overhauled - really only the integral lift pump but they won't do just that, they will only overhaul the whole IP.
    You could test it by supplying fule to the IP inlet at a pressure (5 psi max) and see if that solves the problem. Either fit a pusher pump or rig up a gravity feed. If that fixes the problem it means that you will need to have the IP overhauled but you may be able to delay that expense for quite some time by fitting the pusher pump to compensate for wear in the integral lift pump.
    On the other hand it may actually be a "Timing Control System Malfunction"
    which could be electrical/electronic:
    -Open or short in timing control valve circuit (you could check for open and/or short circuits)
    -Engine ECU (you could try to borrow a known good ECU to see if that fixes the problem)
    or mechanical:
    -Injection Pump (internal pressure and timing control valve) which again means IP overhaul.

    Quote Originally Posted by surfie View Post
    Also, found this article:
    I have a problem with an 03 hilux with a 1KZ-TE ... - JustAnswer

    So, to be sure, I have changed the diesel filter as well and found that it was quite dirty. I have not put veg oil into my diesel tank apart from 2 or 3 occasions when on a long trip. I have done this to be prudent so that the filter problem is eliminated on both tanks now.
    I have considered that maybe I am getting some air in the fuel. If that is the case then this must be happening after the Pollack valve as it happens on both circuits. I have got rid of the pollack valve and connected the IP hose to the diesel filter directly.
    The interesting point was that every time I did something, things became worse. Initially, the car was struggling above 3000RPM. When I changed the diesel filter, the car was struggling above 2000RPM. After removing the Pollack from the equation now I can't even get much up above 1000 RPM.
    You have eliminated the filter problem from the equation. You have nearly eliminated the air leak problem too, just follow tbird's procedure to totally eliminate the air leak possibility.
    Seems your problem is rapidly deteriorating which makes me think it is probably the integral lift pump and you probably do have to have the IP overhauled.

    Quote Originally Posted by surfie View Post
    Next suspicion is the IP or the timing control circuit valve. I have now visited a diesel specialist and he said that for sure I have stuffed the IP and need to have it fixed for $2k+ and might as well have my injectors replaced while I am at it. I am now looking at a $3k bill and have to wait 3 weeks just to get in and have it fixed :-(.

    Thinking back now, I have kind of felt for a while that the car was not pulling as strong as it used to, but was kind of not sure as it was probably a gradual loss. But it seems that it may have started a while ago, however only became severe in the last week or so.
    Yes well he would say that wouldn't he? He has nothing to lose by charging you $3k and even if he does find a short in the wiring or something simple he has made his money by overhauling the IP and "it would have needed that anyway".
    You have not "stuffed the IP", everything you have done would be protecting it. If it is 'stuffed' it is because it has worn out. Using well filtered WVO would reduce wear due to its better lubricating properties.

    Quote Originally Posted by surfie View Post
    Is it likely that I have stuffed up my IP? What do they need to do with it? Can a general mechaninc deal with this or should I take it to a diesel specialist? Is there something I could do?
    NO but it is likely that your integral lift pump is worn or the timing control mechanism is worn, but it could be an electrical/electronic fault.
    NO a general mechanic does not have the equipment to overhaul the IP. A general mechanic can remove the IP and send it to a diesel injection specialist. then he has to fit and time it when it comes back, which may be a problem.
    You would be best to:
    1. Eliminate the air leak possibility.
    2. Take it to another diesel injection specialist and get him to properly diagnose the problem and fix what he finds. It may be the control system or it may be the IP.
    DO NOT get the injectors done at the same time. This would break the basic law of diagnostics. Do one thing at a time.
    In the old days with a petrol engine that was misfiring most mechanics would just replace plugs, points and condenser and that would usually fix the problem and they would be happy to sell all 3 (plus labour). An intelligent mechanic would try one thing at a time to find out what was actually causing the misfire.
    Your injectors may need overhaul but it is highly unlikely to be the cause of this problem. However it is possible and if you overhaul them and the IP you will never know which was the cause of the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by surfie View Post
    In terms of wvo, when I get the oil home, I let it sit several weeks in the containers, then poor the clean oil over a green bag. Then let it sit again. Then pump it through a 5 u filter bag and then put it through my up flow system made of 3 barrels. The last barrel is the one I use for my fuel and also dry the oil in this one. I use an idea from Dave Jones for drying and just run the hose back to the barrel while the pump is running so that it all bubbles (thanks Dave!). Then I run a hair dryer over the bubbling oil to replace the air in the barrel with drier air. I do this for about 2 hours. To be honest I am not completely happy with my drying - I always thought that I will need to work on this more. But so far things looked ok.
    Although most of us filter to 1 micron, 5 micron should be fine - already much finer than your on vehicle filter. Your drying might not be perfect but it is sure a lot better than no drying at all. Most of us are 'getting by' with no drying at all so I would be amazed if your problem was related to your drying procedure.

    Quote Originally Posted by surfie View Post
    My oil seems fairly nice when filling the car, so I am not sure what I have done wrong. I have however observed that a greasy gray material seems to deposit in the filter and in some places. So I am wondering if my IP is basically has got the same stuff in it and may just need a clean?
    Any ideas are very much appreciated as I am getting very desperate. As you can tell I am not very mechanical with an engine although I have done my own conversion and spare tank set up etc.
    Thanks for any help!
    I don't think your IP just needs a clean but it is certainly worth doing that first anyway.
    Just follow tbird's procedure and see what comes up before going to another diesel injection specialist for a 'proper diagnosis'.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Tasmania
    Posts
    494

    Re: Loss of power

    Quote Originally Posted by surfie View Post
    Hi Everyone,

    I have got a 3rd generation (1996) Hilux Surf, that I have converted to wvo over 1 and half years ago and have done about 22000 Kms since. I have got a dual tank set up and so far everything was running well.

    I am using a delphi filter for the vegie oil and usually change it after about 3000 kms. Occasionally after switching over from diesel the engine light may come on, which is kind of indicating that I need to change the delphi filter. I switch back to diesel for like 30 secs in this case to let the oil warm up in the filter now that it had a splash of hot oil enter into the filter. Then after a short while it starts running through the filter and all is fine. In the next few days I take the first opportunity to change the filter. When I change it, it goes back to normal then I have another 2-5000km before the next filter.

    About a week ago the engine light started to come on again. I switched to diesel, but the light seems to have come back even on diesel and the car still had less than normal power. I thought that it was strange and changed the delphi veg filter the next day. However, things did not improve. Over the next day or so the car started to struggle when going uphill, so I thought something more serious was going on, hoping that it was not the IP.

    I have then extracted the error code out of the computer, and had an error 14, which says this:

    The fault code 14 is for "Timing Control System Malfunction"
    This indicates a problem with one of these systems:
    -Open or short in timing control valve circuit
    -Fuel Filter (clogging)
    -Fuel (Freezing, Air in)
    -Injection Pump (internal pressure and timing control valve)
    -Engine ECU
    Also, found this article:
    I have a problem with an 03 hilux with a 1KZ-TE ... - JustAnswer

    So, to be sure, I have changed the diesel filter as well and found that it was quite dirty. I have not put veg oil into my diesel tank apart from 2 or 3 occasions when on a long trip. I have done this to be prudent so that the filter problem is eliminated on both tanks now.

    I have considered that maybe I am getting some air in the fuel. If that is the case then this must be happening after the Pollack valve as it happens on both circuits. I have got rid of the pollack valve and connected the IP hose to the diesel filter directly.

    The interesting point was that every time I did something, things became worse. Initially, the car was struggling above 3000RPM. When I changed the diesel filter, the car was struggling above 2000RPM. After removing the Pollack from the equation now I can't even get much up above 1000 RPM.

    Next suspicion is the IP or the timing control circuit valve. I have now visited a diesel specialist and he said that for sure I have stuffed the IP and need to have it fixed for $2k+ and might as well have my injectors replaced while I am at it. I am now looking at a $3k bill and have to wait 3 weeks just to get in and have it fixed :-(.

    Thinking back now, I have kind of felt for a while that the car was not pulling as strong as it used to, but was kind of not sure as it was probably a gradual loss. But it seems that it may have started a while ago, however only became severe in the last week or so.

    Is it likely that I have stuffed up my IP? What do they need to do with it? Can a general mechaninc deal with this or should I take it to a diesel specialist? Is there something I could do?

    In terms of wvo, when I get the oil home, I let it sit several weeks in the containers, then poor the clean oil over a green bag. Then let it sit again. Then pump it through a 5 u filter bag and then put it through my up flow system made of 3 barrels. The last barrel is the one I use for my fuel and also dry the oil in this one. I use an idea from Dave Jones for drying and just run the hose back to the barrel while the pump is running so that it all bubbles (thanks Dave!). Then I run a hair dryer over the bubbling oil to replace the air in the barrel with drier air. I do this for about 2 hours. To be honest I am not completely happy with my drying - I always thought that I will need to work on this more. But so far things looked ok.

    My oil seems fairly nice when filling the car, so I am not sure what I have done wrong. I have however observed that a greasy gray material seems to deposit in the filter and in some places. So I am wondering if my IP is basically has got the same stuff in it and may just need a clean?

    Any ideas are very much appreciated as I am getting very desperate. As you can tell I am not very mechanical with an engine although I have done my own conversion and spare tank set up etc.

    Thanks for any help!
    If you have no air leaks, before you do anything, flush your fuel system with at least litre of ATF when your engine is at operating temp. You may have clogging of the fuel system, if you use a throw away filter first, you remove the problems with your main filter. I run all my fuel through the same filters, that way when I switch over the system is fully flushed with BD or dino. Leaving veg standing in a filter, will certianly built up gunk just with temperature and humidity changes. If it doesn't work, the next step should be injectors.

    Good luck

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    82

    Re: Loss of power

    Thanks very much for everyone who responded. A lot of great advice!

    I got a bit further with the problem. The second diesel specialist I called suggested for me to try to disconnect the timing control valve cables while the engine is idling. He said this will prove if the valve is working as it should start to idle very erratically but would be better at high rpm as when open circuit it will go to full advance.

    I tried it and there was absolutely no change in engine behaviour when the timing control valve is disconnected. It still idles fine and kind of choking when revving up.

    I have also found how to diagnose the timing control circuit problem in the service manual (the error 14 from the computer). Anyway, I have now eliminated the ECU and the wiring as potential problem sources, last thing is to measure the resistance of the valve circuit - but I just could not get to the plug so far. Will try again.

    I mentioned this to the diesel guy and he said the problem will not be in the electronics. He said maybe the piston in the valve is seized up as it should have advanced then I unplugged the circuit. He still says I need a full IP reconditioning. He says it is not worth doing the valve alone as he already has to remove the pump :-((

    I am thinking now to try to apply 12 volts to the valve to see if it clicks when it gets power.

    In my mind I have kind of eliminated fuel as a potential problem as engine runs bad from both fuels supplies. However, I may try this after I finish testing the valve and it clicks over.

    I have also found that my Pollack may not have been switching over for at least a week or two as the wiring seemed to have came off where 2 wires were joined. So it is possible that I may have been starting on cold fuel for a while. I still have some electrical heating though, but probably not as good as starting on diesel. Maybe this was a contributor??

    Thanks again for all.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    South Australia
    Posts
    1,128

    Re: Loss of power

    Cant help thinking you may be on the wrong track looking at the advance mechanism. Non working advance won't make the engine lose all power and refuse to go over 1000rpm. I can tell you a couple of things that will though. 1. Poor pump pressure due to starving of fuel to IP or faulty fuel pressure regulating valve. See picture of it on this VW thread. Scroll down to see chap holding valve in his fingers. VWDieselParts.com :: View topic - internal injection pump pressure

    Those O rings can desintegrate in Bio.

    If you still have trouble after finding internal pump pressure is correct your pump could be clagged up with dried oil etc. Here's a pic of what happened to mine. Arrow points to screen which feeds the high pressure piston. Blocked up means no go.
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2620/...9a2972e060.jpg
    Johnnojack
    4WD Isuzu Jackaroo 3.1 170,000km on WVO,(2017) 2 tank home built system 6 solenoids. Mk. 9 version. Improvements under investigation

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