****Edit 4th Jan 2006****
It has occurred to me that newcomers reading this thread may be put off by this account of an unfortunate experience and get the idea that it was caused by biodiesel.
In the time since this thread was posted, much investigation has been done and the real causes of the fault have now been found.
I can safely say that biodiesel was NOT to blame.
Circumstantially, it looked like biodiesel caused a fault, but with proper scientific study, it has been proved that there was an existing fault, plus a bad design by Land Rover, plus my own lack of care with decanting fuel and contaminants which caused a blocked filter. This blocked filter when changed put air in the fuel lines. The existing fault of the primary (in tank) electric pump then became apparent when it was unable to re-prime the fuel lines. After many tests and the replacement of the primary fuel pump (broken probably years ago), the car has run beautifully on 100% biodiesel for a few thousand Kms.
An autopsy of the broken fuel pump showed that it had thick deposits all over the the commutator, indicating that it had not turned for years, Additionally, the coils showed no electrical current flowing through them - the root cause of the black deposits many years ago.
This clearly proved that although the fault had occurred after biodiesel was added to the car, biodiesel was NOT the cause of the breakdown.
I will post more on this later, but for now, please do not draw the conclusion that many people too easily jump to out of ignorance - biodiesel did not cause my breakdown.
****End of edit****


Well, I'm broken down by the side of the road in Baulkham Hills at the moment.

I expected to have to change a fuel filter, so I thought how clever I was when I recognised the symptoms of poor fuel delivery and pulled into a quiet side street. I managed to swap the filter out within minutes. However, then I discovered that the clever people who built the Freelander put the fuel pump before the filter, not after it! Who does that? What a silly idea #@!&*

Anyway, the short story is that my fuel pump is now not pumping properly, as the petro diesel sludge got washed into the pump before the filter. I really should have fitted that CAV filter first.

We've got a whole bunch of guests coming around this afternoon for a party. They're all going to ask "where's you car"? Then they're all going to mutter to themselves: "yeah, we knew he shouldn't have used that biodeisel stuff, now he's gone and ruined his car - we warned him he would". Grrr.

I have to find a moment (perhaps tomorrow) to return to my car, remove the pump, take it home, try to clean it out and then return to re-fit it. I just hope it's not pissing with rain when I'm ready to do it. Sigh.

__________________
Robert.
Site Admin.

Robert, you may find that the pump needs to be primed first.

The clogged fuel filter from all the black stuff in the tank left over from the petrol diesel is a 'right of passage' to any biodiesel enthusiast. We all have our tales. When my filter clogged - it was raining.

I tried to suck the fuel up from the tank into my mouth and spit it out, but the fuel would start going back down the hose into the tank as I was trying to get the fuel line on the filter housing. Finally, after spitting at least a half litre of fuel over several unsuccessful trys, I disconnected the line to the injector pump and by sucking the fuel into the filter I got the filter primed. I was then able to use the hand primer on top of the filter housing to prime the rest of the system.

I was spitting fuel for an hour after that.

It is a good idea to have the procedure figured out before hand, and to have the relevant tools ready.

Take Heart Robert, the problem is not with the fuel you are using but with the stupid design of your vehicle.
I recently had to change the fuel pump in my petrol car and was surprised to find the same setup. The fuel goes through the pump before the filter. What idiot engineer thought of that bright idea? Once I changed the pump and looked at the old one I suspected the problem was dirt in the vanes because I was able to free it up and on test runs has worked fine. As the pump is at the very beginning of the fuel line and getting the pump/ fuel gauge sender assembly back in the tank past all the baffels etc is a job barely possible in the first place, adding a filter before the pump would be a major complication.
I could make up a new pickup an get another pump that was installed after the filter and mounted out of rather than in the tank ( Since when did putting an electric pump in a tank full of fuel become a good idea? ) but as I am hoping my days with petrol vechicles are becoming numbered, I couldn't be bothered now. Just seems amazing the shortcuts an engineer inspired to save 10C in manufacturing costs and make some money for the parts department will take rather than be loyal to good engineering practice and design a properm more reliable system.

I happened to mention this setup to my uncle who has lived and breathed big Diesels all his life and his comment was " You would never find a stupid setup like that on a diesel". I agreed and thought only throw away petrol motors would have such cheap, flawed engineering. Looks like we were wrong!

I wonder if this setup is on diesels like yours because the freelander and Vechicles like it, are really 4WD's meant for the road not the bush ( no offence to anyone) as against vechicles like defenders etc. that are designed for off road conditions. Would be interesting to see what setup they have. Somehow, I'm betting it wouldn't be the same. When you were getting fuel out of drums from suspect sources, it would be madness to have a system where the dirt could render the vechicle useless before the offending material was filtered out.

I suggest your unfortunate experience be a good warning to everyone to get under their vechicles and check out their fuel system. If any other vechicles have the pump before the filter it would be a good idea to modify the fuel line by adding a filter before the pump and then mentioning what sort of vechicle they have here so others know what they need to do as well.

Don't forget to mention to the disbelievers that this trouble is not the fault of Bio but the stupid design of the vechicle from a manufacturer that should have known a lot better. Had you been off the beaten track somewhere and got a bad load of Dino Diesel, the result would have been exactly the same.

OK, I've been back to the car and removed the pump and taken it home to try to clean it out here before re-fitting.

It would appear to be a completely sealed unit, so I can't take it apart (doh!) and probably also very expensive.

My plans were to try soaking it in dino diesel (maybe there are rubber components inside that may have swelled) and try connecting 12V to it to see if I can get it to pump out properly after shaking it about. Perhaps I can also switch the polarity to make it run backwards.

Can anyone recommend any fluids I could try cleaning it with (carburettor cleaner etc)?

Any other suggestions?

__________________
Robert.
Site Admin.

Right - I'm not sure that it's the pump now. I've put the pump in a glass jar full of mineral diesel with a pipe going to another jar. Both jars are clean.
I've connected the pump up to 12V and it pumps perfectly from one jar to the other. I tried reversing the polarity to see if I could make it pump backwards, but this only made a noise and did no pumping.
Anyway, shaking, banging, tappping etc of the pump while it is going makes no difference to the flow of the pump.

The pump seems to operate perfectly well and pumps at a constant speed. I pumped between both jars for a few minutes, then I left the pump running in the one jar with its output pointed back into the same jar, so it is circulating the same fuel. No problems.

Inspection of the jars after the tests show absolutely no dirt or sediment, just clear fuel.

So, I'm not so sure it's the pump anymore. It's not the filter either, as I've just changed that. Maybe I did not prime it properly before installing it, though I did see fuel dribble out of the other end of the filter, so I'm sure it filled up.

Where to from here? Can I be sure that the pressure from the pump is sufficient? I know nothing about common rail diesel. My instinct tells me that there may be a blockage in the lines coming from the tank - or even in the tank itself, which would be a little nasty as the tank is presently full (I mean all the way full) with B100. I don't like much the idea of having to try to pump this out and disassemble the tank on the side of the road outside someone else's house. Perhaps I can get it towed home, but I don't want to wear that expense.

I think that my next step will be, now that I have seen the pump working clean, is to put the pump back on the fuel line, leaving the clear hose on the outlet going into a jar. This way I can see if the flow coming from the tank is about the same as the flow coming from the pump in isolation. This should tell me if I have some sort of blockage or obstruction before the pump or after it. I really hope it is before, as although the prospect of dropping the tank out of the car does not thrill me, it is a better prospect than something being wrong after the pump and into the engine.

My engine warning light came on just as it started to first shudder, so I'm assuming that the flow sensor in the fuel filter head (yes it has one there) reported a lack of flow/pressure. I have no real way of knowing this of course as I have not got the interface to read my car's computer.

God I hope this does not end up getting expensive and I really hope I don't have to go back to my LR dealer so that they can all laugh at me for trying biodiesel when they told me not to. It will be harder for me to lecture them on their lack of knowledge of biodiesel this time.

__________________
Robert.
Site Admin.

Robert it is possible that the fuel pickup has a mesh strrainer on the end of it which could have been blocked by Dino sludge. I would try verifying that is clear first.

It is also possible as happend to a friend and I in his new car that there is crap in the tank that blocks the screen while there is suction on it which falls away once the motor stops and the flow resumes till enough rubbish is picked up again to block it.

Pumps can flow but at insufficent pressure. You should be able to get a fuel pressure gauge from a parts shop and check the pressure that way.

As you say you changed the filter and your premise that the pump was not functioning properly is likely not the case, Maybe you should double check there is no air in the line from where you swapped the filter and it is not as simple as something like that.

Robert, see if you can suck fuel through the line, just suck on it, use the tip of your tongue to block the back flow, then suck again, etc.

If you can bring the fuel up and out of the tank, then so should your fuel pump.

You may wish to prime the pump. Put a hose on the outlet side of the pump and suck the fuel through the pump. Don't let the fuel syphon back down.

Now with the pump primed, see if you can pump fuel into a seperate container you brought along.

You might want to take some mouthwash with you.

Hi Robert,

Shame about the constant rain today...
Its probably a bit late for this - but I am happy to come and tow you back from Baulkham Hills to Kings Langley to save towing costs.

Alternatively you could try Mark from Specialised Landrover Servcies who is literally around the corner in Northmead and get him to have a look.

Do you still have my mobile number?

cheers,

Geoff.

Thanks Terry, I did spit all the way home. If it was just biodiesel I would not have minded so much, but I had primed the filter with petro diesel from a 5L can I had. The lines were flowing fine from the tank, through the pump, through the filter, into and out of the common rail - but not back to the tank again.

Geoff - Thanks so much for your generous offer, it would have been well appreciated, but it's too late, I've already had the car towed home. I did attempt to re-visit the repair/investigation this morning in the downpour, but even under the tarp, it was still too difficult.

Now that I have it home, under cover and on a battery charger, I can spend a bit more time on it and do it properly.

I've found a little part which looks like a one way valve on what I think is the return line to the tank. It does not flow either way. It's been cleaned, shaken around in a jar of clean fuel, blown, tapped, shook etc, but it still will not budge (at least to all the pressure I can muster from my mouth/lungs).

Is it possible that this little valve had a rubber bit in it, which has now swollen. Can it happen that quickly?

I'm hoping that this is the fault, as it looks like it would be cheap and easy to fix.

David - you may have a good point. In fact, I had not primed the filter properly, but it fills after the pump anyway, so the pressure from the pump should prime it for me. It does now seem that there is a blockage in the return line. Having said that, I would not rule out the possibility of there also being a problem in the tank. There are actually 3 pumps in my car: 1 in the tank; one lifter pump before the filter and the 3rd high pressure injector pump for the common rail.

A couple of years ago, I ran out of fuel and after refilling, I nearly ran my battery flat trying to start the car. It eventually kicked over, but only barely after all the relays were clicking from lack of power. I took it to LR (as it was still under warranty). and complained about the fuel gauge not showing empty when I ran out I told them in detail about the fault and mentioned that I suspected it was either a problem with the tank not delivering to the engine when nearly empty, or a dodgy gauge. They booked it in with the description "Fuel gauge inacurrate" and the LR mechanic just replaced the sensor and gave it back. I still had the problem, but just learned to not let it run empty. I'm thinking that there may also be a problem with the pump in the tank.

While I've got the car pulled apart, it may be time to finally get to the bottom of this and do it properly. I may well call on Mark the ex LR dude from Northmead as well, I do still have his number.

Cheers,

__________________
Robert.
Site Admin.

Maybe you can put a piece of hose on the return line where it is flowing and just direct that to a jerry can and see if you can fire the thing up that way?
I don't know enough about modern diesels to figure out what problems a blocked return line would cause. Seems odd though, I would assume everything in the return line had already gone through the system and so would be clean.

Just for my own knowledge, can anyone tell me what a lift pump does? I thought it was to pull the fuel from the tank at low pressure, hight volume to supply the the injector pump. If that is the case, why would you need a pump in the tank to supply the lift pump?

With your fuel gauge, it may have an arm on the sender with a float on it in the tank. This measures the fuel level and operates a rheostat. If you bend this arm DOWN a little, the gauge will show less fuel in the tank that you actually have. If your gauge is reading more fuel that what you have, a bit of bending will likely fix the problem. Because my Mrs has some sort of aversion to putting fuel in the car ( or thinks it will go 100Km on fumes) and I have got sick of driving around the place to bring her fuel when she stops by the side of the road, I pulled the sender out the other weekend and bent it down... a lot! Now when the gauge shows empty and the warning buzzer goes off, she still has a bit less than 20 liters on board.

If that don't stop her running out she can just use the small Jerry can I put in the car and walk to the nearest servo because I'm not coming to get anyone that stoopid any more!

I programmed in a reserve on my friends wifes car because she was always running out of fuel as well. His car has a digital dash and by holding down different buttons you can reset the reserve levels and even change the flow sensor calibration so you can -appear- to be getting like 20Km to the litre if you wish. In this case I programmed in a bias of the " Distance to empty" readout so the thing -says- it is going to run out of fuel a lot sooner than it will now.

One other thing with running out of fuel has to do with the crowns on the road. The street where my mrs parks to pick the kids up from school has a real lean on it. as it turns out, the pickup in the tank is on the off side where the car leans to the near side so the fuel drains away from the pickup. Got caught myself like that once. Thing wouldn't start till I pushed it to the middle of the road. Had just under a 1/4 of a tank left so it is something to watch out for.