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  • Some basic help needed for a newbie.

    I've been running my last few cars on fresh off the shelf svo for about a year now but have been collecting wco/wvo from the canteen at work i have about 50 litres or so now however as i was just about to take the plunge and filter it /dewater it,
    then i was put-off going any further by another person who pointed out that i needed to do a titrating test to ensure that the ph level was not to high so i did and came back with a result of about 8 ph so now what ???? do i need to counter act the ph level to bring it back to a more suitable level? or just use it regardless as there does not seem to be a clear answer on the net to my question i thought it best to ask the experienced fella's (and ladies) with considerably more experience on this matter than me coz i'm abit lost off with all this conflicting incomplete infomation i keep getting.

    many thanks

    a UK newbie.


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  • #2
    Re: Some basic help needed for a newbie.

    Hi Gavin,

    Welcome to this forum.

    OK first filter your oil and let it settle for a week or two. Then take a sample from the top of the settled oil and test the pH again. The reason for this is that the water in the oil and particulate contains acids and salts from the foods that were prepared in it. If you remove these, which you should do before using it in your vehicle anyway, you'll get a better indication of the pH of the oil.

    Incidentally a pH of 8 is alkaline, 7 is neutral, lower than 7 is acid and remember that it is a logarithmic scale. What form of test are you using to determine pH BTW?

    All the best, Michael

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Some basic help needed for a newbie.

      Forgot to ask, have you tested the pH of the SVO you are using? If so what is it? And what sort of conversion are you running?

      cheers, Michael

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Some basic help needed for a newbie.

        I think the PH thing is another example of the over carefull nature that many people in the Biofuels interest group follow.

        I have been running my car for over 3 months on an unleaded/Wvo blend with oil that rarely titrates below 9. My car runs fine with no problems. I am not aware of anyone that particularly worries about the PH of their oil in a WVO system.

        In order to reduce the Ph of the oil you would have to add a caustic substance like KOH similar which would wind up going through the fuel system and ultimately in the engine. I rather keep anything like that out of my engne.

        I'm not sure PH has anybearing on using WVO as fuel rather than converting to Bio but if it does, I'd be paying more attention to filtering and dewatering anyway.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Some basic help needed for a newbie.

          My thinking too David, which is why I suggested he test his SVO, because I suspect it will not be neutral.

          Cheers, Michael

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Some basic help needed for a newbie.

            I didn't think that technically we could accurately pH test Oil.

            How does one do a titration test to determine pH?

            Doesn't a pH of 8 make it alkaline?

            So how does adding more caustic to it make the pH drop.

            Good points about filtering and dewatering.
            Joe Morgan
            Brisbane Biodiesel Site Admin
            http://www.brisbanebiodiesel.com

            Searching tips using Google - SVO Dual tank systems
            SVO, Common Rail and Direct Injection - Vehicles converted to Used Cooking Oil

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Some basic help needed for a newbie.

              Hi Joe,

              A pH of 8 is alkaline but the pH scale of 0 to 14 is a measure of acidity. The pH of water is 7 and this was chosen as the 'neutral' reference point, but water is also one of the best solvents known, it is not neutral. So anyway, even if you had a pH of 13 you could still reduce the acidity of that very caustic alkaline solution to 14. That's probably clear as mud??

              cheers, Michael

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Some basic help needed for a newbie.

                I believe you are correct Joe, You can't measure Ph of oil.
                I was confusing myself with titration as done with Biodiesel which is a measure of FFA not PH.

                What I said should be taken in refrence to FFA not Ph as I don't believe that can be measured in oil.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Some basic help needed for a newbie.

                  Originally posted by W123 x 2 View Post
                  Hi Joe,

                  A pH of 8 is alkaline but the pH scale of 0 to 14 is a measure of acidity. The pH of water is 7 and this was chosen as the 'neutral' reference point, but water is also one of the best solvents known, it is not neutral. So anyway, even if you had a pH of 13 you could still reduce the acidity of that very caustic alkaline solution to 14. That's probably clear as mud??

                  cheers, Michael
                  Thank you Michael I know all of this. I was refering to the point about measuring pH in oil, which isn't supposed to be possible which makes any point about lowering it mute.

                  This whole thread does not acknowledge this.
                  Joe Morgan
                  Brisbane Biodiesel Site Admin
                  http://www.brisbanebiodiesel.com

                  Searching tips using Google - SVO Dual tank systems
                  SVO, Common Rail and Direct Injection - Vehicles converted to Used Cooking Oil

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Some basic help needed for a newbie.

                    "Doesn't a pH of 8 make it alkaline? So how does adding more caustic to it make the pH drop."

                    Sorry Joe I was answering these two questions above of yours. If you knew the answers, wouldn't it have been better to say so?

                    All the best, Michael

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Some basic help needed for a newbie.

                      Hi,
                      This is from the Olive Growers site.

                      "pH: refers to the hydrogen ion concentration in an aqueous solution. Olive oil and other oils are not water soluble so their acidity cannot be measured in terms of pH. Vegetable oils are very weak acids, when mixed with a strong base such as lye they will form a salt (commonly called soap). Better oils have a low acidity while lower quality oils will be more acidic. Their acid content is usually measured in percent free acidity."

                      Found on wiki that you can measure the relative acidity of oils using a selective electrode method or a mass spectrometer (doesn't every one have one?). But the main question should be is the acidity or basicity of oils relevant in it's proposed use as a fuel.

                      Cheers, Michael

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Some basic help needed for a newbie.

                        Originally posted by David View Post
                        I believe you are correct Joe, You can't measure Ph of oil.
                        I was confusing myself with titration as done with Biodiesel which is a measure of FFA not PH.

                        What I said should be taken in refrence to FFA not Ph as I don't believe that can be measured in oil.

                        Yes, actually thats what i was refering to titrating as i thought this indicated what the ph level was as this would highlight how many extra grams of caustic soda would be needed to reduce the ph level when making bio-diesel, but since this is a big factor i was told that it was also relevent when running wvo too as the ffa content can kill the seals in the pump.

                        So if my oil is of a higher ffa content than std svo what can i do about it or what is the maximum level of ffa anyone would entertain using in there motor??

                        theres also a few other questions i have about wvo due to conflicting infomation ive been given, but i need to clear this up 1st.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Some basic help needed for a newbie.

                          Unfortunately, there has been little or no research on the effect of FFA or oil acidity on fuel systems. This is due to the lack of MONEY from the main funders of fuel research - the oil companies.

                          I do know that a lot of peolple have used a lot of oil, with little acknowledgement of any reason for engine failure. In fact the failure mode of the engine is rarely discussed (except for Lucas / CAV / Delphi injector pumps which have been destroyed in large numbers when vegetable oil has been used in them.)
                          There is some discussion of IP failure due to lack of fuel supply pressure (blocked filters, high viscosity, lift pump failure, etc) and of cavitation due to water in the fuel, but I have never read of anyone blaming the high titration, of the oil being used, as a cause of IP failure.
                          Most people who use Used Cooking Oils as fuel do not even test the oil FFA content by performing a titration, so they do not even know the FFA content of the oil they use, so do not have sufficient information to apply the blame to the oil FFA content.

                          If anyone knows of any study which adds to this discussion, I would be happy to change my opinion, provided the research indicates that I am wrong.

                          Regards,
                          Tony
                          Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

                          Current Vehicles in stable:
                          '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
                          '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
                          '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

                          Previous Vehicles:
                          '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
                          '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
                          '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
                          '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
                          '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
                          '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
                          '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
                          '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
                          '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

                          Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
                          Adding images and/or documents to your posts

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Some basic help needed for a newbie.

                            If you are doing a 2 tank system, where normal diesel sits in the injector pump for the majority of the time, I would not bother greatly what the oil is. (apart from clean and has no free water) If the system is flushed at the end of each use, the main things will need to worry about is perhaps replacing the tank lines and perhaps switchgear if they ever are damaged.

                            and as for the FFA in the oil, or is it the oil itself that is acidic, is it a bit like saying the water isnt polluted, its the impurities in the water that is the problem?

                            Nah dont answer the question, I am calm when others around me arent, but I think its because I dont fully understand whats happening.
                            cheers<BR>Chris.<BR>1990 landcruiser 80, 1HD-T two tank, copper pipe HE+ 20 plate FPHE, toyota solenoids and filters. 1978 300D, elsbett one tank system.<BR>

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Some basic help needed for a newbie.

                              Tony,

                              I'm not sure what you are getting at here.
                              Are you are implying that High FFA may be the cause of engine and /or pump failure but there has been little rsearch so nobody knows or are you more of the opinion high FFA may be causeing trouble but no one has taken the time to work it out?

                              A lot of engines used with WVO are high milage examples that would not likely be given a second thought if they failed on Diesel. Due to their high milage, it may be that most failures are just put down to age and usage and possibly, that's all it may be. Perhaps the failures caused by other known parameters such as water in the oil so far outweigh anything to do with FFA that it is insignificant. Perhaps failures put down to water are actually the result of the FFA content?

                              It is hard to worry about something that you have no evidence to believe is something that you should be worrying about. Perhaps a high FFA content does shorten engine life over low FFA but the high oil may still be better for the engine and give better life than if it were run on normal Diesel anyway?

                              While there is little definitive infomation on issues like ring coking, I think we are going to be having to wait a while to find out about a problem that is barely ever mentioned like oil FFA content.

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