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  • BP's cynical approach to "biodiesel"

    BP have received MASSIVE press about their announced use of biodiesel, which you may have heard about. At first I thought this was a good thing, then I dug a little deeper when I posted my article on the sydneybiodiesel site here.

    Seems that it is not really so great after all.

    Then I saw this here, which is even worse. Seems that it is not even really biodiesel at all, but the PM is willing to just let them off the tax anyway.

    Why is it not this easy for the rest of the biodiesel industry

    I'm sure that everyone's cranky about this one. I'm fuming. I just thought I'd post it up here so that everyone can vent their annoyances as well (or maybe we can learn something).
    Robert.
    Site Admin.

  • #2
    Re: BP's cynical approach to "biodiesel"

    Why can I imagine the current affair shows linking BP's "biodiesel" blended fuel to engine damage, BP apologizing and promising not to do it again and the prime minister banning all biodiesel blends? As a slogan on the Simpsons read, "fossil fuels use us and no one gets hurt"
    cheers<BR>Chris.<BR>1990 landcruiser 80, 1HD-T two tank, copper pipe HE+ 20 plate FPHE, toyota solenoids and filters. 1978 300D, elsbett one tank system.<BR>

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: BP's cynical approach to &quot;biodiesel&quot;

      Robert,

      Your posting really highlights once again, what has always been the case over recent years in our Political Democracy. It seems that as a very large percentage of the community dont have a clue about the true nature of this (yet another- slight of words) con. I sometimes wonder why I bother to get steamed up about it until I get another stupid idiotic months awaited reply from my local Federal Member who happens to be a front row nerd (with Port Folio). He has proved many times to be a JERK and in harmony with his persona, his only responses are knee jerks Appropriate!!! (almost always a pass along to a lost political island somewhere.
      My way of maintaining sanity in this is having like minded people on the forum to keep me from going out and committing a homicide. That is how I feel sometimes, the trouble is they are not really individuals but when one disappears another chrysalis breaks out to take their place in the colony. I maintain my sanity by doing exactly what I am doing now.

      I have little time for Federal Politics at the moment, in retirement I try to use my time for what is important to me, families etc. Until we are able to get without this so called 'Democracy" which is only a form of political dictatorship. Not a true honest attempt democracy we will be duelling constanly. ( the only compensatory thing for me is that they will have to take notice in the not too distant future, at the same time hoping their stupidity doesnt blind them for too long.) One has to continue with the good fight, even if its only to be able to say "we told you so you________ Jerks!"

      dillyman

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: BP's cynical approach to &quot;biodiesel&quot;

        I agree about everything stated about the corruption of the Australian Government. However, there may be some people who have invested in biodiesel production equipment (or associations) that see this as a threat and are trying to inflame the issue.

        I would like to know more about this new technology. It may have far greater benefits than simple biodiesel production. As you know, the biodiesel process creates a large component of glycerin. Perhaps this new technology allows the incorporation of the glycerin into the fuel in an altered form. This new technology may increase the fuel produced by some 20% - that's good news.

        The home producers have also created such a fuel made from ethanol that incorporates the glycerin as fuel. That fuel would never meet any biodiesel standards, yet there are people successfully using it.

        Technology is not static, it evolves, and I am glad that it does. We are approaching the crisis of Peak Oil and any technology that increases the amount of fuel that can be created should be encouraged.

        The definitions in the various Acts apply to biodiesel as it was originally produced. It appears that this new biofuel may not be defined as biodiesel, it may have a different name with different specifications.

        It also sounds like this technology will not be available to the public, so the home producers will not be effected, so what's the uproar about? The present biodiesel standards were set by the petroleum industry in the first place. Take a look at important things like the CFPP standard - it isn't there! The Cetane level is also higher than it needs to be, why? That precludes some very good oil like soybean oil from being used.

        The BP press release calls is biodiesel, but made with hydrogen. What it also says is that its diesel with their new form of biodiesel will meet Australian standards.

        Let's see what this fuel is about before we go off half-cocked and get swept up in someone else's agenda.
        Terry Syd
        Senior Member
        Last edited by Terry Syd; 8 April 2006, 03:51 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: BP's cynical approach to &quot;biodiesel&quot;

          There's not much available on this new process, but I did find this story interesting -

          "BP unveiled yesterday the most significant push yet to introduce ethanol into the nation's fuel supplies, saying it would be producing 200million litres of biofuels within two years.

          More than half will be derived from tallow -- the fat of cattle and sheep -- which will be processed to extract ethanol. The ethanol will be mixed with normal petrol, allowing BP to market a blended fuel known as E10 throughout the country by 2008.

          BP will produce 110 million litres of ethanol derived from tallow through a new process it has developed for its Bulwer oil refinery in Brisbane.

          Legislation will have to be changed to give the tallow-derived ethanol the same tax breaks as ethanol extracted from sources such as wheat or sugar."

          http://www.finance.news.com.au/story....html?from=rss

          Maybe the early press releases were full of errors. Perhaps what is being planned is a continuous flow biodiesel plant that then takes the glycerin (biomass) and converts it to ethanol. Such a process might use enzimes and has been done before. If this is the plan, then this plant will not have the glycerin waste stream that other plants have. If other plants intend to stay competitive then they will have to start doing the same thing (instead of selling it as livestock feed or soap).

          If anyone else has further information, how about posting it.
          Terry Syd
          Senior Member
          Last edited by Terry Syd; 9 April 2006, 08:14 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: BP's cynical approach to &quot;biodiesel&quot;

            Please allow me to jump in here with some information that might be helpful.

            First a disclaimer - I am a newbie to the forum, and what is worse an American, who promises to be courteous and not trash your government (not such reservations on the Bush administration). Even worse yet. I am a petroleum chemist with 40 years in the industry. I work, since 1989, as an independent consultant, mostly to small companies developing alternatives. See www.gedolbear.com

            Now the information. The biodiesel version that BP is announcing is the very latest technology. It has been pioneered by Finland's Neste Oy, a very progressive oil company. It starts with fats and oils, just like the biodiesel most of us are familiar with (or at least wish was more available). Then it treats these fats with hydrogen to make a product that is VERY much like petroleum diesel, but lower in sulfur, lower in smoke production, and higher in cetane. That all means low in emissions compared to petroleum diesel. The closest similar material is the FisherTropsch diesel make by Shell in Bintulu.

            There is no byproduct glycerol, for that part of the fat molecule ends up as propane (LPG), which is typically used by refinereis in making more hydrogen.

            Oxygen in the fats ends up as CO2, and you Aussies will want to make sure that BP incorporates CO2 removal into the plant. Ditto with the hydrogen plant, which makes a fairly concentrated CO2 stream that can be collected and disposed of in deep saline wells.

            This process is amenable to using tallow as feed, where conventional biodiesel routes making methyl esters are not. The process also makes a much cleaner product than the initial biodiesel step, which requires a potload of cleanup steps to remove acids and other impurities.

            Glad to answer any other questions I can about this. And thanks for letting me put in my 2 cents worth.

            Geoff

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: BP's cynical approach to &quot;biodiesel&quot;

              Hi Geoff,

              Thanks so much for your info - very informative and much appreciated
              Robert.
              Site Admin.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: BP's cynical approach to &quot;biodiesel&quot;

                Geoff, thanks for the information. So it is a diesel fuel made from biological feedstocks - a biodiesel.

                Since you say if is similar to the Fisher-Tropsch process, am I correct in assuming that it has similar energy content to petroleum diesel?

                What about gel points and the like?

                With no glycerin byproduct, it means that BP now has a process that can produce more biodiesel from the same feedstock as the esterifcation process. This will increase their capital flow and allow them to out-bid the other companies for the available feedstock.

                In the biodiesel business, feedstock availability is the biggest issue of production. If BP will be able to out-bid their competitors, then this development is going to make BP the force to be reckoned with.

                If it makes a fuel with a higher energy content and lower gel points, then they may have just cornered the biodiesel market in Australia.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: BP's cynical approach to &quot;biodiesel&quot;

                  I found a webpage that refers to the Neste Oy process.

                  http://www.hightechfinland.com/2006/energy/energy/

                  It doesn't give us the figures for the fuel, but it does contain some interesting information in the text.

                  "The outcome of this effort at the company’s Technology Centre at Porvoo was a new technology known as NExBTL. This has proved capable of producing a highly competitive fuel that is more than a match for both the conventional biodiesel grades currently on the market, as well as traditional fossil-based fuels.

                  Conventional biodiesels are mainly methyl esters, manufactured by vegetable oil producers. This has been a major cause of concern for the automotive industry, as the quality of these products tends to vary, depending on the quality and availability of the vegetable matter used as their raw material.

                  Neste Oil’s NExBTL biodiesel does not have this problem. NExBTL-based production units can use either vegetable oils or animal fats, enabling producers to source their raw material input both flexibly and cost-effectively, and always produce a consistent product.

                  Neste Oil has tested a number of different vegetable oils its process, and all have worked excellently. Animal fats are a particularly competitive raw material, as they can no longer be used in animal feed and are not suitable for many other uses either.

                  Being able to use several different fatty acids as input, without the quality of the end-product suffering, makes NExBTL superior to other biodiesel production processes. It also opens up a completely new raw material window, as users will not have to compete with other biodiesel manufacturers for the same raw material.

                  The benefits do not stop there either, as NExBTL is fully compatible with existing fuel logistic systems and vehicles, which minimises the need for investments in distribution systems and new vehicles. NExBTL can be blended with traditional diesel fuel, with no need to modify engines – and drivers will not notice any difference between a standard diesel grade and one containing NExBTL, whatever the conditions or ambient temperatures."

                  A further bit of research has given me some figures on this second generation of biodiesel technology. It has less viscosity than FAME, the cloud point can go down to -30C, it has the same heating value (Mj/litre) as FAME - however, it does not contain its own lubricity properties. Just like the Gas To Liquid (GTL) fuel it must have an additive for lubricity. So, maybe there will still be a need for some FAME in the fuel. It also does not have the oxygenation/polymerisation issues of long term FAME storage.

                  I wonder what the third generation of biodiesel technology will bring us.
                  Terry Syd
                  Senior Member
                  Last edited by Terry Syd; 21 April 2006, 07:28 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: BP's cynical approach to &quot;biodiesel&quot;

                    I was looking at an article on high pressure common-rail diesel injection systems and had a bit of insight.

                    Those systems are very efficient, however they need a standard low viscosity fuel. They are very unlike the mechanical indirect injection system that is found on the older vehicles. Those older injection systems can use fuels with a broad range of viscosities.

                    Since we are heading towards more of the common-rail high pressure systems, it seems logical that the biodiesel industry must produce fuel for those types of injector systems. Thus, I see the commercial industy moving towards this newer biodiesel production process.

                    I suppose a good compromise for home brewers would be to produce high quality biodiesel and then to cold-filter the precipitated sterates out. The lower viscosity liquid biodiesel could be used (perhaps with blending with petrol diesel) in the common-rail system and the heavier sterates could be used in a vehicle with the older injection system.

                    My Toyota 2LT engine will run just about anything. I could get a second vehicle with the more efficient common-rail system to run the 'good stuff' and the 2LT to clean up the left-overs (and the used engine oil).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: BP's cynical approach to &quot;biodiesel&quot;

                      gtward Hi Geoff Very interesting. How can I find out more about this process. It would be great if there was no glycol byproduct.Is there a simple way of doing this process on a smaller scale?
                      Gene



                      Originally posted by geoffdolbear
                      Please allow me to jump in here with some information that might be helpful.

                      First a disclaimer - I am a newbie to the forum, and what is worse an American, who promises to be courteous and not trash your government (not such reservations on the Bush administration). Even worse yet. I am a petroleum chemist with 40 years in the industry. I work, since 1989, as an independent consultant, mostly to small companies developing alternatives. See www.gedolbear.com

                      Now the information. The biodiesel version that BP is announcing is the very latest technology. It has been pioneered by Finland's Neste Oy, a very progressive oil company. It starts with fats and oils, just like the biodiesel most of us are familiar with (or at least wish was more available). Then it treats these fats with hydrogen to make a product that is VERY much like petroleum diesel, but lower in sulfur, lower in smoke production, and higher in cetane. That all means low in emissions compared to petroleum diesel. The closest similar material is the FisherTropsch diesel make by Shell in Bintulu.

                      There is no byproduct glycerol, for that part of the fat molecule ends up as propane (LPG), which is typically used by refinereis in making more hydrogen.

                      Oxygen in the fats ends up as CO2, and you Aussies will want to make sure that BP incorporates CO2 removal into the plant. Ditto with the hydrogen plant, which makes a fairly concentrated CO2 stream that can be collected and disposed of in deep saline wells.

                      This process is amenable to using tallow as feed, where conventional biodiesel routes making methyl esters are not. The process also makes a much cleaner product than the initial biodiesel step, which requires a potload of cleanup steps to remove acids and other impurities.

                      Glad to answer any other questions I can about this. And thanks for letting me put in my 2 cents worth.

                      Geoff

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: BP's cynical approach to &quot;biodiesel&quot;

                        Cheers, from California!

                        As skeptical as I am about the motivations of big companies, I think it would be useful to look at why oil companies would like to convert fats and oils to the kind of diesel fuel represented by NexBTL and BP's proposition.

                        First and most important, oil companies are like most everybody else in being afraid of something new. (Ever been tempted to eat some of the strange foods considered delicacies in the middle east? How about Rocky Mountain Oysters (freshly harvested bull testicles? Me neither.) FAME qualifies as new because of its chemistry and its source. This fear is immediately supported by the concerns about how it blends into petroleum diesel and the fact that it can gel the oil when the temperature gets cold (rarely a problem in Australia, I admit, but often a problem in Northern Europe and the like.)

                        Converting tallow or vegetable oil to diesel uses processes and catalysts and separations equipment very much like what oil companies use everyday in making petroleum products. FAME requires a lot of what we chemists call "wet separations" that refiners go out of their ways to avoid.

                        The product they get looks very much like petroleum diesel, also a comfort factor. In fact, if a group of fuel scientists were to sit around a table and design the perfect diesel fuel, the product would look a lot like NexBTL. This is truly a better diesel fuel, lacking only the lubricating properties of regular diesel.

                        I do not know anything about the tax situation between BP and the Aussie government (not sure I want to know, either). However, BP is a very smart company, love them or hate them, and it should not surprise any of us if they convince the government to give them money for doing what they should be doing anyway. That's how large corporations operate the world around. Oh yes, and all the while yelling about social programs, which they refer to as welfare.

                        Geoff

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: BP's cynical approach to &quot;biodiesel&quot;

                          Check this out......

                          http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/st...ectid=10381404

                          I bloody laughed after I read this.

                          Imagine how much Bio we could produce just from Canberra alone....
                          HDJ80 (aka Kiwipete)
                          Canberra

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: BP's cynical approach to &quot;biodiesel&quot;

                            Looks like a few qutoes in here are running for quotes of 2006. BP and the Australian government lets face it are just looking after themselves which is all they are supposed to do $$$. To look after the environment or to try and help the biodiesel cause is not on their agenda never has been and never will . Does anyone really belive that BP will actually use this stuff they are probably just tryin to maximus their tax dollars with a minimus of effort and for that they get my applaudus.



                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: BP's cynical approach to &quot;biodiesel&quot;

                              " BP spent more on their new eco-friendly logo last year than on renewable energy."

                              from http://journeytoforever.org/fyi_previous.html#3012
                              Need we say more?
                              cheers<BR>Chris.<BR>1990 landcruiser 80, 1HD-T two tank, copper pipe HE+ 20 plate FPHE, toyota solenoids and filters. 1978 300D, elsbett one tank system.<BR>

                              Comment

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