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  • Are you; selfish, selfless or ambivalent??

    Hi,

    We all have experienced the type of momentum now gathering around biofuels in other areas. At some point critical mass is reached and what was a fringe activity becomes mainstream.

    So here's a question for you: If we (this forum) make the use of biofuels simple and obvious to all, will too many do it and make waste oil scarce? Are we we promoting the use of wvo/svo/biodiesel at our own expense? In other words should self interest prevail over the common good?

    I confess to having mixed feelings about this especially with blending. I keep showing friends and several have taken the plunge, and they in turn are showing other friends. Blending is so simple any idiot can do it and a lot more will jump in, (possibly stuffing engines/IP's as well) leading to govt regulation . I don't fancy paying fuel excise/ tax on veg oil and will probably go underground if it happens , and it will happen.

    Cheers, Michael

  • #2
    Re: Are you; selfish, selfless or ambivalent??

    I'm somewhere in between the two. I'm all for open communication and spreading the word, but I doubt there will be enough home producers to dint supply however if we are stuffing cars then on selling them, the government could get nasty about it.
    Joe Morgan
    Brisbane Biodiesel Site Admin
    http://www.brisbanebiodiesel.com

    Searching tips using Google - SVO Dual tank systems
    SVO, Common Rail and Direct Injection - Vehicles converted to Used Cooking Oil

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Are you; selfish, selfless or ambivalent??

      Originally posted by W123 x 2 View Post
      Hi,

      We all have experienced the type of momentum now gathering around biofuels in other areas. At some point critical mass is reached and what was a fringe activity becomes mainstream.

      So here's a question for you: If we (this forum) make the use of biofuels simple and obvious to all, will too many do it and make waste oil scarce? Are we we promoting the use of wvo/svo/biodiesel at our own expense? In other words should self interest prevail over the common good?

      I confess to having mixed feelings about this especially with blending. I keep showing friends and several have taken the plunge, and they in turn are showing other friends. Blending is so simple any idiot can do it and a lot more will jump in, (possibly stuffing engines/IP's as well) leading to govt regulation . I don't fancy paying fuel excise/ tax on veg oil and will probably go underground if it happens , and it will happen.

      Cheers, Michael

      Hello again
      An interesting topic Michael, and timely in my case. I have heard of people stealing petrol, but now, someone is stealing WVO! Yes, I kid you not. i had a call last night from a "chippy" that we collect from 2-3 times a week, asking us to come and collect the customary (about) 40 litres each time. When we arrived, the 2 20 litre drums of oil had GONE!!!! The other thing is that they wre not even readily visible, in that they were behind a concrete plant pot and a sign!!! The "chippy" owners are now going to find a spot to keep it INSIDE the shop. I really do hope that whoever nicked it doesn't know he has to clean it first and just dumps straight into his diesel tank. Not a kind sentiment, but then who cares. I was between selfless and ambivalent, after this I am very much approaching selfish.\
      Regards
      Geoff Otherside532

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Are you; selfish, selfless or ambivalent??

        Probably selfish and ambivalent.

        My own situation is my main concern and I am in veg fuels as a cheap fuel source rather than being motivated by saving the planet although if my using veg fuels helps there too, Bonus!!

        I am not a supporter of trying to convince everyone to put veg in their tank simply because it is a flawed concept to start with. There is obviously not enough to do that nor will there ever be.
        As I see it, there will be 2 main threats to what we are enjoying today and will take away the independence of veg oil.

        The first will come from government regulation and rules along with business and the second will come from over demand, possibly compounded by the 2 previously listed factors.

        I believe once the govt thinks that it is loosing too much money in fuel excise and related taxes, it will do as it has already with Biodiesel and put some sort of tax on its use as fuel and then bring in some other backhanded regulations to deter the public from accessing it such as with the EPA in the US requiring permits to carry the stuff or make it illegal to use from emissions standards.

        The threat from business will be the same as has occurred in the US . What was once rubbish and was freely available is now seen as a valuable commodity and business will do all it can to make sure it secures the supply of oil. If in the future they start throwing up Bio plants faster than they are building fast food joints, then you will see similar things happening here as they are now in the US due to the demand and value of used oil.

        I see WVO for the private citizen as anything but an infinite resource and a far more limited one than petroleum or gas. There will always be a limited and finite amount used by food outlets. Once business or significant numbers of home brewers jump on the band wagon, the weight of their demand will cause the wheels to fall off through their not being enough to go round to satisfy anyone’s needs.
        At the present time, this may seem like a long way off here but if Petrol does another sky rocket and hits $2 a liter like predicted by Christmas and one of the big business entities decides they want to tie up the WVO market and do a deal with the govern-mint to make it happen….. We could be facing the same problems as the US veg oilers are now they have made everyone aware of possibly the first practical independent fuel source ever available to the average person since the car was invented. From what I read WVO is a scarce and hard fought for commodity in many parts of the US and people are giving Veg fuel away simply because of the difficulty of sourcing reliable supplies.

        Up till now, the people I know using veg oil are pretty open about where they source their oil. Many people may know of a persons source but have the common decency and respect not to touch some one elses supply. Today I read of someones oil stock going missing from a rather unlikely place. I guess as demand for oil grows, the honour and respect amoungst oil users will also diminish and we will be scrapping for what ever oil we can find and gaurding it's source like the pin code on an ATM card.

        Once WVO becomes hard to get and the cost effectiveness of Home brew or WVO is no longer viable, I believe many people will go back to their petrol cars which they can buy fuel for cheaper here and have a greater range of cheaper and in many cases more comfortable cars for the same money as a much older diesel. This is where the growth of the concept will implode on itself and instead of having a few people using renewable, clean burning fuel, many will abandon it and go back to fossil fuels.
        It should be remembered that the real friends of the planet are not the commercial producers who use new oil grown specially for the purpose of producing bio ( which I believe the majority of producers do) but rather the home brewers and WVO users who are taking a product that has ordinarily finished it’s normal working life and for the most part would be something else going into land fill.

        Another problem I see with trying to promote the wide spread use of bio fuels, particularly the Home grown side of things is your average Dickhead in the street. This would be your typical Klutz with 2 left hands that has trouble putting air in his tyres but will think he can modify his car to run veg oil or make home brew to save a buck towards more pub time. Have a few house fires, explosions, cars going up in smoke through bad conversions or anything else the media can over dramatise, and the govt and do gooders will step in and with the stroke of a pen, many of the people here will be out of action.
        For this reason I think it is better at least the DIY side of the bio fuels thing be left to natural growth through sites like this where there can be an amount of support and guidence to steer people the right way from the start.

        After researching the topic, I have strong suspicions that we may not be getting the real facts of commercial Bio production and it may not be nearly as good a thing as we are being told. Right now it is in the interest of governments and business to allow us to think it is but I cannot help but wonder if in say 10 years time facts and research come to light that commercial Bio production wasn’t really doing the planet any favors after all? Right now we are led to believe commercial Bio is a wonderful thing but we are also being told that about Ethanol production and anyone that looks past the politicians rhetoric knows that to be a blatant lie.

        At the moment the amount of people running bio fuels in oz is but a drop in the ocean and the supply of WVO is plentiful enough. While this situation may stay the same for some time to come, I also believe with enough attention drawn to the DIY aspect of veg fuels, the situation could also change overnight.

        I’m just making the best of a good thing while it lasts but I certainly don’t think it is going to last forever!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Are you; selfish, selfless or ambivalent??

          All good thoughts David but I cannot accept the government conspiracy theory. The benefits of producing and using biodiesel are well documented and I do not believe you can dispute them.

          There is however one major problem with the increasing manufacture of biodiesel - the ever increasing demand on traditional food crops. We need to get away from the ever increasing demand on these resources and also from the problem of clearing rainforests for palm oil plantations.

          I am directly involved in building a small processing plant going in at Blacksoil, west of Brisbane and we will use tallow as our start up feed stock, but there are other plants on the drawing board that will also use tallow and before to long the price will exceed economic value and the tallow industry will be stuck with a product that is too expensive for anybody to use.

          Promotion of algae for oil is, to my mind essential and I am selfishly proceeding down that track. If I crack the problem of growing commercially viable stocks of algae I will become a very wealthy man.

          I am looking at a double benefit here in that the algae need Co2 and power stations produce megatons of the stuff. Put the two together, and we reduce the nations relience on dinojuice and drop the atmospheric Co2 levels.

          And no, because I am selfish, I will not tell you my secrets, well not until I know if they work anyway, then I will tell you all how to build and grow a back yard supply of your own algae oil in a wheelie bin.
          Slippery
          Small steps taken one at a time.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Are you; selfish, selfless or ambivalent??

            Originally posted by Slippery View Post
            I will tell you all how to build and grow a back yard supply of your own algae oil in a wheelie bin.
            That would be something!!
            Something that would certainly change the world and the structure thereof as we know it. There may be a lot of people with a lot of reasons for not wanting you to do this so I would suggest you inform the world how to do it in a massive email to as many media, green groups and other ways of spreading the word all in one go as possible.

            I'm not sure I would say my earlier comments are exactly a conspiracy theroy, but I would also say they are far from baseless. If the Gov. REALLY was behind bio fuels, they would not have slapped a tax on home grown bio production and tied it up in so much red tape, it is impossible to produce the stuff legally.

            With politics, it is far from what is the best thing to do, only what they need to do to get re-elected. Big Difference. Of course governments employ the best spin doctors in the world so what you say and what you do are also completely different things.

            One day, maybe soon, someone like yourself may come up with a solution to the energy crisis and with the help of high speed and massive communication potential like the average person has today, the infomation will get out and create a totaly different world to what we live in today.

            Of course as soon as fuel becomes freely available, watch the price of your vehicles Rego go up like 1000%
            No way any government is going to loose the fuel revenue cash Cow.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Are you; selfish, selfless or ambivalent??

              After the theft of my 2 x 20 litre containers of dirty WVO from outside one of the "chippies" from which I collect, I have decided to join the ranks of the "selfish-ambivalent" and leave the "ambivalent-selfless group." The theft of (max) 40 litres of dirty cottonseed oil is no big deal in the grand scheme of things, but it gives an indication of what we can expect. As I said in a previous thread, I do hope that whoever took it, puts it straight into the tank without cleaning it!!!

              I wish you every success with your "algae oil," Slippery. I would be curious to know how much oil can be produced in a "wheelie bin" and how quickly.

              As far as a "government conspiracy" is concerned, please don't dismiss it out of hand. The Australian and New Zealand governments are still in school, learning the intricacies of conspiracy from the experts in America and the UK. Helen Clark has just come back from "sucking up" to Bush in Washington and Australia will be hosting "Operation Talisman Sabre 2007," in June-See my thread "US to bomb Australia in June" and getting a few US dollars for allowing parts of Australia to be blown up.

              The "New World Order" conspiracy is not just about biodiesel, it is about "Total Control" of the many by the few. 1984 and all that.

              From being a teenager, until about age 40, I could never figure out some of the, to me at least, stupid things that politicians did, and still do. It was in the early 80s, while living in Canada,that I was given some books which were a real revelation. They were not "off the wall" idiot books, they were well researched and well written by, in some cases, scholars. It was then that I became convinced of the One World Government Conspiracy and, in view of the stated aims, all the "idiot" politician decisions made sense. The more I see happening today, the more convinced I become.

              Your comment about the ever increasing demands on traditional food crops is well made. You have only yo look at what is happening in America, corn prices have shot up, as has the cost of farmland, in one state I read it had gone up from US$4,500.00 an acre a year ago to US$6,000.00 an acre now. The cost of tortillas in Mexico has gone up about 17% because of US corn prices, the Chinese had to release reserves of rice and corn recently because of food prices going up and Chinese farming is a disaster due to over cultivation. These articles were published in an investment newsletter and I have seen nothing in the "establishment press" about it.

              My personal belief/preference is that certain kinds of trees can provide a significant solution to fossil fuel problems, and other things as well. One tree produces seeds containing food grade oil which could be used first for cooking then, after being cleaned, as a biofuel. The cake from the seed is also a water purifier, which is already being used in Africa , thereby reducing the import and use of chemicals. The tree also has medicinal properties and literally every bit of it can be used for years and years and years. Its growth rate is prolific and produces in its first year. It will grow readily in both Australia and New Zealand, produces crops every year and doesn't have to be just left to grow for 30 years then to be cut down and sent to China so that companies like Warehouse can import cheap paper from where?China of of course, while New Zealand paper mills close. That according to politicians, makes sound economic sense? Yea right. We probably also borrow the money from China to buy the paper, more good sense economics.

              I have bought 50 seeds from each of 2 types of tree and am going to experiment with them and see how they grow.

              David's comments about politicians are, in my view, spot on. Their (politicians) primary aim is to keep their well paid jobs. Politics is little more than a club and a circus (see question time) and its members are in bed with Big Banks and Big Oil in particular and with Big Business in general. You again have only to read about just some of the goings on in America to be able to connect the dots and don't tell me that New Zealand and Australian politicians/big business are a whole lot better. PHEW!!

              I went on a bit there didn't I ? Sorry guys! Kind regards to all
              Geoff. Otherside532
              P.S. I fanyone is interested in some the conspiracy books, send me a personal message and I will send you details. One of them was suppressed by "The Establishment" because it was written by a Professor who was an "Insider," really knew what was going on and couldn't understand why the great unwashed masses didn't support it

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Are you; selfish, selfless or ambivalent??

                Originally posted by Slippery View Post
                SNIP

                Promotion of algae for oil is, to my mind essential and I am selfishly proceeding down that track. If I crack the problem of growing commercially viable stocks of algae I will become a very wealthy man.

                I am looking at a double benefit here in that the algae need Co2 and power stations produce megatons of the stuff. Put the two together, and we reduce the nations relience on dinojuice and drop the atmospheric Co2 levels.

                And no, because I am selfish, I will not tell you my secrets, well not until I know if they work anyway, then I will tell you all how to build and grow a back yard supply of your own algae oil in a wheelie bin.
                I look forward to learning the secrets.
                Unfortunately, the production of algae biodiesel from fossil fuel (coal, nat'l gas, oil) thermal power stations will not directly cause a reduction in the greenhouse emissions, because the fuel will be burnt, and will convert to atmospheric CO2.
                Indirectly it could, if there is a consequent avoided use of petroleum diesel.
                Unfortunately, this does not happen because the more fuel which becomes available, the more that will be used.
                Only a petroleum fuel shortage and consequent price hike will have any effect on the flagrant waste of petroleum resources.

                Good Idea
                Tony
                Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

                Current Vehicles in stable:
                '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
                '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
                '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

                Previous Vehicles:
                '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
                '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
                '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
                '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
                '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
                '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
                '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
                '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
                '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

                Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
                Adding images and/or documents to your posts

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Are you; selfish, selfless or ambivalent??

                  Geoff,
                  Your missing oil gives me another thought as to another problem with growing WVO usage. Just in case I put this badly, please don't think i'm making light of your problem Geoff.

                  Perhaps you are a victim of your own success? Maybe someone saw you in the paper and thought what you were doing was such a good idea, they wanted to do it too!

                  Honestly though, I wonder if it was a private person and if they actually took the oil innocently? Over the last few weeks I have come across a goodly amount of oil in my travels out of normal area through my kids sports.
                  Being the terrible, selfish and opportunist person I am, If I have seen a stack of oil drums out the back of a place near the dumpsters, I pick it up. Right or wrong I don't sit there contemplating the whys, what if's or any other lofty possibilities, If there is no indication the oil is anything but what someone wants to get rid of, I take it.

                  I don't bother asking about it but on the other hand, If I saw a sign that says This oil is collected to be used as veg Fuel" or any other indication that someone had dibs on it, I'd leave it alone. As it stands though, I'll make the best of the opportunities I see to benefit what in all great likely hood will be disposed of as waste otherwise.

                  The bottom line is, this could become yet another problem through the growing use of bio fuel feedstock. People who would not knowingly tread on someone elses turf may well do without knowing. Just like in the US where waste oil is something that has to be protected and the term "Grease Rustlers" has been coined, no doubt the problem will one day be the same here.

                  After reading the info and links you sent me regarding those trees, I have ordered some seeds as well. If nothing else, I'll be dam interested to see a tree grow as fast as what these things are claimed to! Of course being grown domestically and by someone that actually does well in the garden, I expect these things should grow at full speed.

                  If running a car on old chip oil has become now some what unremarkable for both myself and friends, if I were able to extract just 20 litres of oil from these trees I could drive my car on, that would be something amazing.
                  I can't see I will have enough space to grow enough trees to make buying a press worthwhile or time efficent, so I'm not really sure how to go about extracting the oil from the seeds I will get but I have a little while to work it out.

                  I wonder if I coulds use one of those old washing machines with the rollers on the top as a press?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Are you; selfish, selfless or ambivalent??

                    Hello again guys. More good? news about the energy future can be found at
                    March 21, 2007: Massive Diversion of U.S. Grain to Fuel Cars is Raising World Food Prices of which the article below,sent to me today by another concerned individual, is but one item

                    March 21, 2007 - 3

                    Copyright © 2007 Earth Policy Institute
                    MASSIVE DIVERSION OF U.S. GRAIN TO FUEL CARS IS RAISING WORLD FOOD PRICES
                    Lester R. Brown

                    If you think you are spending more each week at the supermarket, you may be right. The escalating share of the U.S. grain harvest going to ethanol distilleries is driving up food prices worldwide.

                    Corn prices have doubled over the last year, wheat futures are trading at their highest level in 10 years, and rice prices are rising too. In addition, soybean futures have risen by half. A Bloomberg analysis notes that the soaring use of corn as the feedstock for fuel ethanol “is creating unintended consequences throughout the global food chain.”

                    The countries initially hit by rising food prices are those where corn is the staple food. In Mexico, one of more than 20 countries with a corn-based diet, the price of tortillas is up by 60 percent. Angry Mexicans in crowds of up to 75,000 have taken to the streets in protest, forcing the government to institute price controls on tortillas.

                    Food prices are also rising in China, India, and the United States, countries that contain 40 percent of the world’s people. While relatively little corn is eaten directly in these countries, vast quantities are consumed indirectly in meat, milk, and eggs in both China and the United States.

                    Rising grain and soybean prices are driving up meat and egg prices in China. January pork prices were up 20 percent above a year earlier, eggs were up 16 percent, while beef, which is less dependent on grain, was up 6 percent.

                    In India, the overall food price index in January 2007 was 10 percent higher than a year earlier. The price of wheat, the staple food in northern India, has jumped 11 percent, moving above the world market price.

                    In the United States, the U.S. Department of Agriculture projects that the wholesale price of chicken in 2007 will be 10 percent higher on average than in 2006, the price of a dozen eggs will be up a whopping 21 percent, and milk will be 14 percent higher. And this is only the beginning.

                    In the past, food price rises have usually been weather related and always temporary. This situation is different. As more and more fuel ethanol distilleries are built, world grain prices are starting to move up toward their oil-equivalent value in what appears to be the beginning of a long-term rise.

                    The food and energy economies, historically separate, are now merging. In this new economy, if the fuel value of grain exceeds its food value, the market will move it into the energy economy. As the price of oil climbs so will the price of food.

                    Some 16 percent of the 2006 U.S. grain harvest was used to produce ethanol. With 80 or so ethanol distilleries now under construction, enough to more than double existing ethanol production capacity, nearly a third of the 2008 grain harvest will be going to ethanol.

                    Since the United States is the leading exporter of grain, shipping more than Canada, Australia, and Argentina combined, what happens to the U.S. grain crop affects the entire world. With the massive diversion of grain to produce fuel for cars, exports will drop. The world’s breadbasket is fast becoming the U.S. fuel tank.

                    The number of hungry people in the world has been declining for several decades, but in the late 1990s the trend reversed and the number began to rise. The United Nations currently lists 34 countries as needing emergency food assistance. Many of these are considered failed and failing states, including Chad, Iraq, Liberia, Haiti, and Zimbabwe. Since food aid programs typically have fixed budgets, if the price of grain doubles, food aid will be reduced by half.

                    Urban food protests in response to rising food prices in low and middle income countries, such as Mexico, could lead to political instability that would add to the growing list of failed and failing states. At some point, spreading political instability could disrupt global economic progress.

                    Against this backdrop, Washington is consumed with “ethanol euphoria.” President Bush in his State of the Union address set a production goal for 2017 of 35 billion gallons of alternative fuels, including grain-based and cellulosic ethanol, and liquefied coal. Given the current difficulties in producing cellulosic ethanol at a competitive cost and given the mounting public opposition to liquefied coal, which is far more carbon-intensive than gasoline, most of the fuel to meet this goal might well have to come from grain. This could take most of the U.S. grain harvest, leaving little grain to meet U.S. needs, much less those of the hundred or so countries that import grain.

                    The stage is now set for direct competition for grain between the 800 million people who own automobiles, and the world’s 2 billion poorest people. The risk is that millions of those on the lower rungs of the global economic ladder will start falling off as higher food prices drop their consumption below the survival level.
                    Geoff's comment here-I have said that I am opposed to deep phiosophical discussions here, but as I read the paragraphs above a verse in the Book of Revelation crossed my mind. Rev. 6:6 "And I heard what seemed to be a voice from the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius( a whole day's wages), and three quarts of barley for a denarius; but do not harm the oil and the wine!" I never could figure this out, but in view of what is happening in Mexico with the cost of Tortillas, it is beginning to make sense.
                    In February 2007 the World Food Programme Director James T. Morris reported that 18,000 children are now dying every day from hunger and malnutrition. This daily loss of life is six times the number of U.S. combat fatalities in Iraq over the last four years.

                    There are alternatives to this grim scenario. A rise in auto fuel efficiency standards of 20 percent, phased in over the next decade would save as much oil as converting the entire U.S. grain harvest into ethanol.

                    One option that is gaining momentum is a shift to plug-in hybrids. Adding a second storage battery to a gas-electric hybrid car along with a plug-in capacity so that the batteries can be recharged at night allows most short-distance driving—daily commuting and grocery shopping, for example—to be done with electricity. If this shift were accompanied by investment in thousands of wind farms that could feed cheap electricity into the grid, then cars could run largely on electricity for the equivalent cost of $1 per gallon gasoline.

                    Encouragingly, three auto manufacturers—Toyota, Nissan, and GM—have announced plans to bring plug-in hybrid cars to market. Plug-In Partners, which is spearheading a national campaign to shift to plug-in hybrid cars, already has 508 partners, including electrical utilities, corporations, state and city governments, and farm and environmental groups. Among its fast-growing list of partners are the American Public Power Association, Electric Power Research Institute, American Wind Energy Association, American Corn Growers Association, and the cities of Los Angeles, Dallas, Chicago, and Boston. Already a number of Partners have collectively pledged to purchase for their own fleets more than 8,000 plug-in hybrids as soon as they reach the market.

                    Ethanol euphoria is not an acceptable substitute for a carefully thought through policy. For Washington, it is time to decide whether to continue with the current policy of subsidizing more and more grain-based fuel distilleries or to encourage a shift to more fuel-efficient cars and a new automotive fuel economy centered on plug-in hybrid cars and wind energy. The choice is between a future of rising world food prices, spreading hunger, and growing political instability, or one of stable food prices, sharply reduced dependence on oil, and much lower carbon emissions.
                    Copyright © 2007 Earth Policy Institute

                    I also came across this little poem a while ago and thought it worth saving. "Death" in the original is said to be "in charge of the clattering train," I thought "DEBT" an interesting alternative, but in view of what is going on in our "fields" (no pun intended!) maybe "apathy" is more likely. I invite your thoughts on who/what might be in charge of the clattering train.
                    Regards
                    Geoff. Otherside532

                    Who is in charge of the clattering train?
                    The axles creak and the couplings strain,
                    And the pace is hot, and the points are near,
                    And Sleep has deadened the driver’s ear;
                    And the signals flash through the night in vain,
                    For Death (DEBT) is in charge of the clattering train.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Are you; selfish, selfless or ambivalent??

                      Originally posted by david
                      Honestly though, I wonder if it was a private person and if they actually took the oil innocently? Over the last few weeks I have come across a goodly amount of oil in my travels out of normal area through my kids sports.
                      Being the terrible, selfish and opportunist person I am, If I have seen a stack of oil drums out the back of a place near the dumpsters, I pick it up. Right or wrong I don't sit there contemplating the whys, what if's or any other lofty possibilities, If there is no indication the oil is anything but what someone wants to get rid of, I take it.

                      I don't bother asking about it but on the other hand, If I saw a sign that says This oil is collected to be used as veg Fuel" or any other indication that someone had dibs on it, I'd leave it alone. As it stands though, I'll make the best of the opportunities I see to benefit what in all great likely hood will be disposed of as waste otherwise.

                      The bottom line is, this could become yet another problem through the growing use of bio fuel feedstock. People who would not knowingly tread on someone elses turf may well do without knowing. Just like in the US where waste oil is something that has to be protected and the term "Grease Rustlers" has been coined, no doubt the problem will one day be the same here.
                      David,
                      What you describe is THEFT.
                      While the sight of a stack of oil tins may make you salivate, it is a simple thing to ASK if you can have them.
                      By not asking, you have decided that the owner of the oil has no rights to his property.
                      You are not even giving him the opportunity to give the oil to you.
                      You are giving us all a bad name!
                      You have the ignomy of being one of the first "Grease Rustlers" in Australia.
                      Perhaps you should be called some names which are more descriptive and definitely MUCH stronger!

                      I rarely use strong language, but if you stole the oil I had worked hard to secure for my fuel, maintaining a strong relationship with the proprietor and keeping his oil storage area clean and tidy, just for you to steal my oil, I would certainly find suitably strong words!!!

                      I am disappointed in your behaviour. I had wrongly assumed that you had stronger morals than that.

                      Tony
                      Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

                      Current Vehicles in stable:
                      '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
                      '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
                      '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

                      Previous Vehicles:
                      '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
                      '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
                      '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
                      '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
                      '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
                      '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
                      '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
                      '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
                      '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

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                      • #12
                        Re: Are you; selfish, selfless or ambivalent??

                        Well I did figure that someone might get on their moral high horse about me saying that although I wouldn’t have imagined it would have been you Tony and I am sorry that I have worked you up into such a state about this.

                        I guess we all have our moral code we live by and I am quite happy with mine and am not about to change it because some people take issue with it. I wouldn’t for instance offer to help people and then put a price and condition on it but I know some people that do and seem comfortable with that. We all have our different standards.

                        I think everyone in the Veg oil community needs to be a little careful and look in the mirror before they go pointing the finger.
                        Everyone that makes their own Bio and doesn’t’ pay the 38C a liter tax on it is stealing from the government and is guilty of theft and tax evasion. I think that pretty much makes every home brewer a criminal and lacking in morals by your standards and certainly makes them criminals by the letter of the law. Anyone that modifies their vehicle to run on SVO and drives it on the road is in fact breaking the law by driving a vehicle with modifications that would not meet design or roadworthy standards and certainly wouldn’t be approved if examined by a vehicle certification engineer.
                        Are you disappointed in these people as well or have any strong words for these thieves and criminals with obviously low moral standards in doing this or do you choose to overlook these things and not become indignant about them?

                        You have made an automatic assumption that all oil at the back of every restaurant is for someone who has put dibs on it, when given the actual amount of people using veg fuel, the overwhelming odds are it is nothing more than rubbish. I’m more than sure if you went to the people that do “Own” this oil I have picked up and started talking about their “ rights” to their “Property” that they have thrown out to be disposed of, you’d be laughed at!

                        As far as asking for the oil goes, all the places I regularly collect from have already had commercial collectors taking the stuff away but when I have asked if I could collect it as well, I have always been given a yes. Who now owns the oil or has moral rights to it when the owner has given more than one party the ownership of their property?
                        And just to avoid any confusion here, I am talking about oil put out in the original 20L tins, not placed in a collectors drum.

                        Like I said, I don’t sit round contemplating an endless amount of what if’s and whyfores or any other lofty theoretical complexities when I’m looking at a pile of old oil tins laying scattered amongst cardboard boxes and the rotting stink of the rest of the garbage out the back of a restaurant.
                        The places I regularly pick up from and have spoken to the owners about do have clean-ish and tidy areas where the oil is left for me neatly stacked up and this appears to be the case with other people I have spoken to.

                        When I see drums laying on the ground untidily with the other overflowing rubbish or stuffed in overloaded dumpsters, I can be pretty certain that no one else has lined them up as fuel or is at all concerned about them or if anyone other than the garbage collector takes them away.

                        I make the logical and most likely assumption that if stuff looks like rubbish, is lying round like rubbish, is in amongst the stinking rubbish…It is rubbish that no one wants or anyone regards as their property and I am doing no wrong by taking it.

                        I have to admit, I haven’t had to work hard maintaining relationships with my regular suppliers. I have gone in, asked if I could take their oil and from then on just come and got it without causing any interruption to their business or in most cases, never had need to bother the owner of the place again. They put their waste oil out, it disappears, everyone is happy!

                        Perhaps before we start using strong words in making judgments on other peoples morals, we should take a closer look at what we do ourselves and make sure our own morals are totally without flaw would stand up to other peoples scrutiny.

                        I would suggest that before anyone starts calling anyone else names, they might like to make this check to ensure they themselves could not be called “hypocritical” or anything else they may like to level at others.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Are you; selfish, selfless or ambivalent??

                          Hello again.
                          I am wondering if we should start a new thread with a title something like "The REAL cost of biodiesel." I, as I have said before, receive an investment newsletter from the states and it has some interesting little aricles and comments in it. You will find below the latest one from the UK? Financial Times.
                          Regards
                          Geoff. Otherside532

                          The US is forecast this year to expand its corn acreage by its biggest amount in more than a century, which traders estimate will require an extra 1m tonnes of fertiliser. It is such a big amount that some US traders say it may leave the US market short, as producers in the Gulf are finding it difficult to catch up with the increasing demand.

                          Andrew Prince, senior consultant at British Sulphur, a consultancy, says nitrogen-based fertiliser prices are expected to average about $365 a tonne this year, up from last year's average of about $270.

                          Mr. Prince says instead of lessening dependency on foreign energy sources, the US is creating a big export market for urea exporters as it accounts for 90 per cent of global imports of urea, predominately used as a fertiliser. At the start of the decade the US was largely self-sufficient in urea supplies.

                          "The notion that producing ethanol is going to change America's dependency on foreign sources of energy is false, as they still have to import the nitrogen from somewhere because they can't produce it themselves," he says.

                          -Financial Times

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                          • #14
                            Re: Are you; selfish, selfless or ambivalent??

                            Hi David and Tony,

                            Ethics aside, my memory of material placed "outside the place of business" in waste containers is deemed "waste" and of no value to the previous owner. Only if the bins, no matter where they are, are marked "the contents of this drum/bin/skip/etc. remain (is) the property of ....." do they belong to someone. There are 205 litre drums of waste oil so labelled near where I collect my oil.

                            The is a lot of law about this issue (I am no lawyer) and it often involved industrial espionage, secrets (of value) being pulled from the waste (oil) by others. This is also how private investigators and the paparazzi "legally" get the 'dirt' on people by going through their bins.

                            Be damned careful though as "place of business" has legal definitions that you and I may find fanciful and if you are within "the place of business" and remove the drums or contents thereof, you will be committing theft.

                            Anyway as Shakespeare said, "First, kill all the lawyers!" Later borrowed by Marx as, "First, shoot all the lawyers!"

                            So in a nut shell, if the bins are not marked "the property of..." and they are not inside the place of business, picking up waste oil drums I don't believe it is 'legally' theft.

                            That said I believe common courtesy should prevail and I always ask.

                            Rule #1 Don't sweat the small stuff.
                            Rule #2 It's all small stuff.

                            Cheers, Michael

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                            • #15
                              Re: Are you; selfish, selfless or ambivalent??

                              I agree that each of us should examine his or her own morals before picking on others - don't throw stones etc. but I agree with Tony in that it would have been a simple courtesy to ask the restuaranteur if you could take the oil. Where is the honour among thieves??

                              By your analogy David, it would have been in order to jump into the drivers seat of a BMW parked next to the dumpster with the keys in the ignition and drive it away.

                              Bad selfish boy. Whats it to be, kneecaps or concrete boots?
                              Slippery
                              Small steps taken one at a time.

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