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Inquiry into future oil supplies -hearings today Canberra 9am -3.30pm

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  • Inquiry into future oil supplies -hearings today Canberra 9am -3.30pm

    Friday, 11 August 2006



    Inquiry into future oil supplies

    Public hearing - Canberra

    Committee Room 2S1

    9.00 am - 3.30 pm


    See the committee website for a complete agenda

    http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committ...pply/index.htm




    The above was posted from a Greens Media release I've not read through everything in the site yet (and possibly won't due to lack of time today), but I did click on one of the submissions, which at first glance did disgust me a little. Has anyone heard of these guys? Maybe Tony from West Oz - has Warfa come into contact with these guys at all? While I can agree with the argument that biofuels can compete with food and sustainable ecology, I really think he's playing on this far too much and ignoring possibilities like the growing of non-competitive non-food crops. He does very little on biodiesel, but just bangs on about ethanol. Did I miss something?

    Also, here is a submission from the BAA.

    If anyone else has any comments, please discuss them here.

    There seem to be many voices out there and many organisations claiming to represent biofuels. Unfortunately, not many of them seem to bother to discuss what they do too publicly.
    Robert.
    Site Admin.

  • #2
    Re: Inquiry into future oil supplies -hearings today Canberra 9am -3.30pm

    Typical submission from the BAA - all filler, no meat.

    The ASPO submission is well researched. It puts forth virtually everything I have learned over the last 10 years, that is, we're stuffed. There is no way that we can continue with business as usual. They did mention non-food sources of biodiesel, such as mustard seed. You can see that the energy yields are much better for such a crop. Perhaps it was outside their line of expertise to expand on how to implement such cropping.

    I would have liked to see an expansion of discusion on perrenial crops such as avacado and macadamia nut trees.

    Robert, were there any submissions about homemade biodiesel?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Inquiry into future oil supplies -hearings today Canberra 9am -3.30pm

      Serves me right for skim reading.

      I've only read those 2 submissions I put up there, but this link has all the submissions.
      Robert.
      Site Admin.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Inquiry into future oil supplies -hearings today Canberra 9am -3.30pm

        There are about 200 submissions to that committee! Far too many to read but I did look at the two you mentioned and one more, from Renewable Fuels Australia

        This was a well constructed submission and included:
        It is estimated that Australia’s domestic oil reserves could reach the point of effective exhaustion within 7 to 8 years.

        and

        If it has the vision, and can release itself from some of the fossil fuel chains that currently restrain government thinking, Australia should be capable of attaining sustainable transport energy security within 20 years. The cost of doing nothing will come in the form of economic, social and political disruption on a national and global scale.

        More emphasis is placed on ethanol than biodiesel even though it is acknowledged as a temporary measure. It's a reasonable position to take given the number of petrol engines out there. However, they put a lot of faith in a $200 modificaton that would enable up to 85% ethanol usage in petrol engines. I don't fancy the chances of manufacturers' warranties being extended to include such a modification or general acceptance of 85% ethanol in petrol at the pump.

        It seems much is discussed about biodiesel but very little is proposed. Then again, there are about 190 other submissions I haven't read.

        This exercise raises a few questions for me and I hope the senior members will be able to offer some guidance. Which group is representative of biodiesel users and the DIY community nationally? BAA or RFA or someone else or no-one? Should the various communities using this forum be seeking a greater voice through BAA or RFA etc. or are we better off remaining on the fringe? (I mean, who would volunteer to read all these submissions )

        The concern is that through the efforts of others with commercial interests, life for the DIY 'biodieseler' may become increasingly difficult. Am I being paranoid? What do others think?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Inquiry into future oil supplies -hearings today Canberra 9am -3.30pm

          You are right, there is no real organisation that covers the DIY biodiesel folk and I think nor will there be, for the reasons you already mentioned. The BAA sort of claimed/tried to act like it did cover their interests, but as far as I can tell, they are really better off being an industry organisation, as it is quite common for the biodiesel industry to treat the DIY folk with suspicion and contempt. This very issue was discussed at the last BAA meeting, where some people thought that I represented the home brewer (which I was eager to point out I did not).
          I also feel that the user, or consumer does not really have any voice or means to get information (apart from in here of course). There needs to be a national users group set up, which we have been discussing ad nauseum, but the latest discussion is here).
          I am always a bit miffed that the industry (with a few exceptions) and also the organisations representing them do not ever talk to us. Actually, that is not completely fair, they do invite me to their functions, but my point is that they don't share information with us openly in the forum.
          I was a little annoyed that I only found out about this today, perhaps if I had been more diligent, I would have seen it earlier. I was annoyed that no useful discussion could happen before the event.
          The RFA submission sounds good. Maybe the BAA and the RFA should be cooperating for mutual benefit.

          Now as for an organisation to represent biodiesel users, that is coming hopefully soon (check the above link), but I don't think we will specifically be representing DIY, just users. If a user gets their fuel from a commercial source, or from themselves it is their business. However, I do believe that we will assist by helping to facilitate workshops and education for anyone who chooses to make it, while we will provide advice as to the tax regulations and suggest that people who choose to make it give their excise money to the government and follow the current laws etc. But I'm getting off topic and there is no point talking about any of that until we are actually ready and prepared to do so.

          We really do need to all educate ourselves a bit more on these issues and in so doing try to educate each other and ultimately our government.

          Your comment on remaining on the fringe is a very valid one. Presently, biodiesel is seen as the realm of fringe dwellers. While I personally like most of the fringe dwellers, I do think that it needs more of a mainstream image, something that I personally am eager to portray. I'm not yet sure how to do this, but I think there are many things that we could do much smarter than what is happening at the moment. Perhaps with a bit of good media savvy, we might just go part of the way.
          Robert
          Administrator
          Last edited by Robert; 11 August 2006, 04:17 PM.
          Robert.
          Site Admin.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Inquiry into future oil supplies -hearings today Canberra 9am -3.30pm

            Thanks for the links and the explanation. It's great to see that a national user association is on the way. I think your point about whether a user gets his/her fuel commercially or otherwise, should not be an issue as far as the users' group is concerned, is an important requirement.

            More about the Senate committee.... Some of the 'witness presentations' are seriously doom and gloom. Take a look at what Dr Samsam Bakhtiari said in his submissions in this transcript of last month's sitting in Sydney. Basically, it's a catastrophic future according to some.

            A common theme is that it's too late to do much and there is not enough time to effectively move to renewables at the required scale.

            The ASPO submission led to this interesting exchange with Senator Joyce who seems well-informed and a little frustrated (understandably)

            Senator JOYCE—You said at the start that you also do not believe that biorenewable alternatives are a panacea. I do not think that has been suggested. The suggestion is it is a mitigating issue; it is something to alleviate a problem, not fix it outright.

            Mr Kilsby—That is right.

            Senator JOYCE—In the context of it being a mitigating issue, do you believe it is a better alternative to doing nothing at all, which is currently what is happening? Or do you want to do nothing at all?

            Mr Kilsby—I would see that as a way of sustaining the unsustainable for a little bit longer than it might otherwise be. On the one hand, it would postpone the crisis of oil for a little bit. On the other hand, it is a crisis we have to have sooner or later.

            Senator JOYCE—What if we do not deal with the fact that the internal combustion engine is a major driver in the economy and, therefore, we need fuel that is compatible to that internal combustion engine? What if we do not create some sort of mitigating process to get us to some new horizon? What are your views about that? Do we just park all our cars in the garage, walk away and start putting crops in for horses again?

            Mr Kilsby—That is going to be quite difficult to do. I think the longevity of the car fleet is one of the problems we have. It will probably take 20 years to turn over. The car industry is putting a lot of thought into what it can sell us in years to come, obviously. One of the big hopes of the car and energy industries is that we will be able to switch from an oil based economy to a hydrogen economy, which is one of the things we have heard about. But it will probably take decades before a commercially available hydrogen fuel cell car becomes available, and I do not think that is time that we have. Your question was about—

            Senator JOYCE—The transition from internal combustion engines—we use biorenewables such as biodiesel or ethanol because they work on the same fundamental premise of an internal combustion engine, and they are easily overlaid into the design of the economy that is currently centred on an internal combustion engine. With other alternatives, they ask for a holistic change in the fundamentals of the capital that drives the economy. That is unlikely to happen overnight, so you are going to have some transition and some process to mitigate that issue. I know that the tractor that just put in a wheat crop for me is unlikely to be driven by photovoltaic cells; it is going to be driven by an internal combustion engine. The trucks that Senator Sterle drives up and down the highway are unlikely to be driven by wind power; they are going to be driven by an internal combustion engine. I am asking you about your vision for that transition period, which I believe strongly needs such things as biorenewable components to lessen the blow. Where we might end up in 30 years time is another issue, but we do not have to worry about 30 years time, we have to worry about 10 and five years time.

            Mr Kilsby—The growth of corn and so on that you need to produce the ethanol and biodiesel requires energy of its own, and it requires land as well. I suspect that the conflict between the land and the energy that you need to supply the additives to petrol and the need for alternative uses of those lands and energy will be something that you have to consider.


            I think he never got the point the good senator was making. What's the best alternative to doing nothing? Why not biodiesel if it buys a little time?

            Anyway, there's some scary opinons among this lot.

            Cheers!

            BTW, Identifying the well-informed and interested politicians for future lobbying efforts may be a worthwhile outcome.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Inquiry into future oil supplies -hearings today Canberra 9am -3.30pm

              Well done Flubber - thanks for giving us that little view into the discussions today.

              I am always a little dismayed at both ends of the peak oil spectrum. on one hand we have the "save yourself, there is nothing that can be done" perspective and on the other, we have the "don't worry, our kids can handle the problem when they grow up, I'll be dead by then". It is easy to see how people at each of these extremes can completely discount each other's views to the point where they can see no middle ground.

              I am pleased that at least one senator seemed to get it. Maybe we are all stuffed and should just roll over and die, but I'd like to try to be a little more optimistic and if there is the slightest possibility of anything that can extend our systems a little, or at least help to soften the blow, we should be working as hard and as passionately as we can for them now. I see biodiesel as one of these things, hence the energy and time that I invest in it.

              At either end of the scale - if peak oil hits as hard as the most pessimistic predictions, then at least we tried and if it does not, well, at least we have a cleaner alternative.

              A good point too about keeping an eye on the politicians who seem to get it and lobbying them when the time comes.
              Robert.
              Site Admin.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Inquiry into future oil supplies -hearings today Canberra 9am -3.30pm

                Great Stuff Flubber and Robert.
                Being a full on activist and not depending on the system is what I found can be most effective tool.Depending on the defunct system means we are confined to the box of thinking,the box defined by them.Using tools that is provided by the system which has it's parameters well laid out to only work within it.
                Flubber,Robert,TS, and everyone else ,we all know the wrought in the system.We all know it's our Kids future that we are talking about.About or mates ,about the country.
                We all know that we are trying to do our bit as consious citizens with a social responsibilty of making life and quality around us better.Not only for the micro family but for Asutralia and the world in general.
                I cannot believe that we are not a part of the Kyoto Protocol.That alone could be used as a very effective mechanism to at least bring in a lot of research and development in the area of Alternate Energy.But then we are dependent on the coorp's to do their own in house design to come up with the answer which we then get totally dependent on.They make a Motza along with filling up the Govt coffers.A win win solution for all.Is It really???
                Where does the common man fit in.
                Hell he is overlooked again.After all his destiny in in their hands.
                He should be keet in the dark and feed mushrooms.Slog his 8 hours and just go to bed and do it again the next day.

                Flubber you rightly said that we have to identify politicians(I would rather use the word persons,individuals) /communities/organizations who needs the support of the mass to carry forward the cause.

                Hey there is no hope.Hope has died a sorry death.Action begins.

                Knowledge is power and empowering the mass with knowledge is the call of the day.Instead of front flips,back flips,side swings .....what ever these guys have been doing for so long(it's been a long time indeed).The quality manual that they use has run out of options.The eye wash that they use does not work anymore.

                Saying all that .What is the solution.Come the revolution???
                Slogans,shouting,lobbying the usual modes of protests???(Again these are well listed down in the manual).

                So are we helpness???

                Far from it.As Robert pointed out.Optimism and action is the call of the day.
                Thinking out of the square,mobilising resources both collectively and individually all focused to achieve that common goal.
                But then what can a single man do.Well heaps.All leaders are single entities?Ghandi is a super example.So is Che Guevara...list goes on.

                In other words lets put in all our efforts for a collective cause.
                You never know the next sensible PM could be just around the corner.


                Yes lets start chosing our leaders.Not having them forced down our throats.
                Let us define our future....not them.Let us work together.Not just concerned about our own little backyard.
                No it's not an altruistism.It is reality.And we know what is the real world and how it effects all of us.Like everytime you go down to fill the car up ,just to rub it in.

                All this is not in vain Robert.You mentioned about the fact that it is your passion that you get involved so passionately for the advancement of alternate fuels.Passion ,vision and attitude to never give up for any right cause is the dictum of society.
                But then that could identify individuals or groups as fringe belivers.
                Well then I ask"What is main stream"
                Is the crap that the system gives us main stream.Is the war main stream.Is the unqualified and poor planning of our Nation mainstream.
                Is hiding in the name of the law mainstream.Is controlling freedom main stream.Is running away from a problem main stream.
                Can you call any of the bunch of gutless,spineless ,boneless evil morons mainstream.
                Alternate is mainstream ....or the real mainstream.As we go out to ask the authenticity of a situation and desicion and action.We consiously share our ideas and work so that it goes to improve life in general.We care.Thats the one most important thing that society advances on.

                So yes lots of work ahead for the real mainstream.And it has to happen from the fringe acting and delivering out of the box.

                There is a solution to every problem.Proper Identification of the problem is half the solution.So lets all get stuck into it "with no fear ,or hope".
                Just action.
                Borrowing a corp line "Just Do It".

                Cheers
                Sauman

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Inquiry into future oil supplies -hearings today Canberra 9am -3.30pm

                  Humans life spans are too short. If they were, say 1000 years then people might have a clue about repeating patterns. Been here, done this, know the drill to fix it.

                  When you go to school and take a history course, they don't try to turn you into a wise old 1,000 year old human - they want you to memorise names and dates. That information isn't going to help anyone.

                  Here is a chapter from Jared Diamond's 'Collapse', about the collapse of the Easter Island society - http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/24/042.html

                  I have read the book with the chapters on the Mayans, the Norse in Greenland and Montana in the present. There are real lessons of history in that book. I would suggest that anybody that still hasn't conceptualised what kind of potential scenaro lies on the horizon to get the book. You can hope for the best, but I really suggest you plan for the worse.

                  I'll be leaving in five minutes to drive to the farmer's market at Castle Hill. I can hear morning traffic outside. That is not a sound you heard 100 years ago. It is not a sound you will hear 100 years from now, perhaps not even 20 years from now. Wrap your head around that idea and look at the way the society around you is organised. Take a good look.
                  Terry Syd
                  Senior Member
                  Last edited by Terry Syd; 12 August 2006, 08:45 AM.

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