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Jeffrey S. Brooks
1st March 2012, 05:00 AM
Running waste oil blend diesel fuel in cold weather by blending it with solvents

In one of my first experiments, during the winter of 2005, to see if gasoline could be used as a solvent for thinning waste oil for use as a diesel fuel, I blended in several wide-mouthed one-quart (liter) canning jars varying blends of WVO and unleaded gasoline (petrol). They were 5%, 10%, 15% and 20% regular unleaded gasoline (RUG, petrol). I found that the unleaded gasoline (petrol) mixed readily with nothing more then a few gentle swirls of the blend, and I found they never separated even after 2 years of no movement.

Recent experiments with new canola oil and new 10/40 motor oil have shown that these oils behaves very similarly. Thus, we can extrapolate similar behavior over similar temperature ranges between WVO and WMO. We can also conclude that gasoline readily blends with waste vegetable oil and/or motor oil and does not separate.

At the time of the 2005 experiments I also wanted to find out if gasoline blending would reduce the cloud point and melting point of recycled waste vegetable oil (WVO), which was soy oil, so in that experiment I later placed the samples in a refrigerator over night, then a freezer over night, to see if the gasoline dropped the pour point of the vegetable oil, and/or would the oil solidify and settle out. At that time I found the WVO and gasoline still did not separate, and the pour point did in deed drop. Even as low as a %5 gasoline blend showed a noticeable lowering of the cloud point just below 32F (0c). I found at that time that it took a mix of about 20% to drop the pour point temperature of waste soy oil down to about 20F (-6.7C).

I have recently been researching the physical properties of a wide range of fuels, solvents and oils. In that research I found that Kerosene and Turpentine have similar melting points at about -50c (-58f). This means that blending them with a light vegetable oil, like canola oil, which has a melting point just below freezing, will raise the melting point of the solvent, while at the same time the solvent lowers the melting point of the oil in a mathematical relationship based upon the mix-ratio. It has been reported that it takes roughly 50-80% Kerosene or JP-4 to keep canola oil liquid down to about -30C (-22f) to -40c/f. However, if one were to use a solvent that has a significantly lower melting point, such as gasoline or acetone, which is about -100C (-148F), then it is very possible that one could keep canola oil liquid down to a much lower temperature.

During the winter of 2011 I found WVO based upon canola oil that was blended at 20% with gasoline remained liquid down to 0F (-18c). Recent reports during the winter of 2012 found gasoline blended at 20% with waste soy oil remained liquid down to 15F (-10C).

So, I recommend at lest 20% gasoline blended in canola based WVO or 10-40 WMO down to 0F (-18c), or soy oil down to 15F (-10C). Another thing to keep in mind is one can actually increase the gasoline content of a waste oil blend up to 50% without damaging a diesel engine. And gasoline at 50% is going to have a lot more anti-gel effect than diesel at 50%. Thus, below to 0F (-18c) I recommend increasing the gasoline content by 1% for every 3F (.5c) degrees lower.

Also, I have since found that animal fat and hydrogenated oils do not blend readily with gasoline so they should be removed for cold weather use.

Here is a photo of my 80% canola oil blended with gasoline at 20% and still liquid at 0F (-18c)
http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j411/jhananda/Bio-fuels/ColdStartmovStill0012.jpg

peter1
1st March 2012, 01:03 PM
I would strongly advise people to work up their blends by testing starting at 10% petrol rather than just going straight to 20%
In the numerous vehicles i have tried 20% petrol in I have experienced a variety of problems. This has also been the case with other people I speak to that have tried this blend in other vehicles.
While some manufacturers allowed blends this high in the extreme cold such as you mention which is rarely found in Australia and in a relatively small area's Many years ago, there are few pumps around today that will operate happily on this level of petrol without suffering undesirable side effects.

If more than 15% petrol is required I would advise any further thinning of the blend be done with Kerosene or Alpine Diesel

tbird650
1st March 2012, 03:32 PM
My plan has always been to use the least amount of ULP I can get away with. After all, it's the expensive component. Currently I'm using 20 % and trying to figure a way of using less. To me, ULP blend isn't perfect but it does work and is cheap. In testing some years ago, I trialed a 30% ULP blend. I can say that the vehicles' original IP is still operating today after 6 years come May. Its' never been removed from the engine block! Any issues I've had, have always turned out to be "something else", other than the IP.
My suspicion is that 50%ULP/veg blend is safe enough for the IP, especially when one considers how little oil a 2stroke engine uses or has in its' premix... and how good a lubricant veg is. I don't have any reason to consider a such a ratio, unless battlefield conditions suddenly appear! My prevailing market price dictate that I may as well use 100%diesel.

I'm making some setup changes today which I'm going to write up shortly. With this change, I'm hoping to cure some of the recent issues that have plagued my van with difficult hot re-starts and power loss.

tillyfromparadise
2nd March 2012, 02:11 AM
Hi Jeffrey



Another thing to keep in mind is one can actually increase the gasoline content of a waste oil blend up to 50% without damaging a diesel engine.I hope you do not mind me asking where you came up with the information that 50% gasoline in your fuel will not damage a diesel engine
Either you have performed some carefully controlled experiments on a wide range of diesel engines, you have located this information on a reliable website which you can provide a link to, or ...?

In particular I am concerned about the newer direct injection Common Rail diesel engines that the manufacturers recommend a fuel with a cetane number of 45- 55.
51 is currently the minimum standard in Europe.

40 is the current minimum standard in the USA.
Some Veg oils such as soybean have a Cetane number less than 40.
The best information I can find is that the cetane of Petrol is between 12 and 20.

I have concerns about how well one of these new diesels will handle a fuel with a cetane number of 20- 25 long term

peter1
2nd March 2012, 08:11 AM
I hope you do not mind me asking where you came up with the information that 50% gasoline in your fuel will not damage a diesel engine

Tilley,

I think most diesel engines would be hard pressed to run at all on 50% Petrol.
If they cannot run, Logic would dictate they cannot be damaged. ;)
It could further be extrapolated by this logic that a 10 yo engine running 50% petrol would be in an as new condition.

Tim-HJ61
2nd March 2012, 08:50 PM
Considering these posts will be read by newbies and will be for some time to come into the future, I concur with Tilly's concerns about any promotion of 50% ULP with WVO in Australian conditions. Whilst I understand that in other parts of the world humans manage to eek an existence in below freezing temperatures, us sensible souls in Australia find the concept abhorrent and rarely have to deal with such silliness. Sure, we get freezing temps, but nothing like the folk in the US and Europe. Given this is an Australian based board, postings need to reflect local conditions.

There also needs to be the rider that when Jeffrey refers to diesel engines, forgive me if I am misrepresenting you Jeffrey, that you are not referring to common rail diesels. I wouldn't want anyone making up a 50% mix of ULP and pouring it into their common rail engine thinking the concept was supported by the majority on this board. I'm thinking that Jeffrey is not insinuating this, but wanted to clear that up.

Whilst I don't own one, it is the common rail engines that are being produced now a days, and with the passage of time, fewer and fewer 'normal' diesels are around.

IMHO research that can determine long term viability of blends in a common rail engine are going to be useful to the community of the future, but it does need to be careful evidence based research.

Tim

Jeffrey S. Brooks
3rd March 2012, 01:07 AM
Considering these posts will be read by newbies and will be for some time to come into the future, I concur with Tilly's concerns about any promotion of 50%; ULP with WVO in Australian conditions...

TimNow, it is interesting to note that Tilly is not a blender. So, how is it that he is some how an expert on blending? Hmm. Sounds like we have some lack of critical thinking on the part of the forum mod.

Tim-HJ61
3rd March 2012, 10:58 AM
Now, it is interesting to note that Tilly is not a blender. So, how is it that he is some how an expert on blending? Hmm. Sounds like we have some lack of critical thinking on the part of the forum mod.

Instead of focusing on me, or Tilley, why not discuss what I've said? Honestly Jeffrey, you're far too precious.

My EXPERIENCE in running a blend in my DI Landcruiser was that 20% ULP was too much and it resulted in a deep rumble inside the engine. I feared I had destroyed $8000 worth of engine. Once I ran on straight diesel, it ran fine, proving to me that too high a blend of ULP, in particular in the hot conditions in Australia, is too much for my engine.

Therefore it is entirely reasonable to query your assertion that 50% ULP is okay. I simply do not agree with your blanket statement and as a mod I have a responsibility, like general forum members, to ensure the forum stays useful, so that newbies are not misled by inaccurate information.

My wide circle of contacts in my local area that I meet up with once a month, who have many different vehicles, talk about 15% unheated being an excellent blend for use in suitable vehicles, these being IDI engines.

Tim

tillyfromparadise
3rd March 2012, 06:11 PM
Hi Jeffrey,

.

Recent experiments with new canola oil and new 10/40 motor oil have shown that these oils behaves very similarly.Can you be specific as to which experiments you performed and the results of these experiments and which behaviours you found to be very similar.
Information I have found on the internet says the Pour Point of canola oil is -18 C while the pour point for Red Line 10W/ 40 motor oil is -45 C.
At 40 C the Viscosity of Canola oil is 33 cSt while the viscosity of Red Line Motor Oil 10W/ 40 is 93 cSt.
At first glance they do not seem to have particurlarly similar behaviours.
I look forward to you clarifying this a bit further.




Thus, we can extrapolate similar behavior over similar temperature ranges between WVO and WMO.Which behaviours are you talking about?




We can also conclude that gasoline readily blends with waste vegetable oil and/or motor oil and does not separate.Did you do a blending experiment with these too? Can you describe the blending test and the results.

Jeffrey S. Brooks
4th March 2012, 12:56 AM
My EXPERIENCE in running a blend in my DI Landcruiser was that 20%; ULP was too much and it resulted in a deep rumble inside the engine. I feared I had destroyed $8000 worth of engine. Once I ran on straight diesel, it ran fine, proving to me that too high a blend of ULP, in particular in the hot conditions in Australia, is too much for my engine.

Therefore it is entirely reasonable to query your assertion that 50%; ULP is okay. I simply do not agree with your blanket statement and as a mod I have a responsibility, like general forum members, to ensure the forum stays useful, so that newbies are not misled by inaccurate information.

My wide circle of contacts in my local area that I meet up with once a month, who have many different vehicles, talk about 15% unheated being an excellent blend for use in suitable vehicles, these being IDI engines.

TimTim, I have been contributing to alternative diesel forums on the WWW for 7 years. I have searched the archives of most of those forums back to their origins and I have found the occasional post from someone who blended varying percentages of petrol with WVO buried in their archives.

When I first started posting my findings with blending petrol with waste oils I was banned from most of those forums just for advocating blending petrol in diesel fuels. Since then there is now a growing community that accepts the practice, but I find there is still an irrational fear about blending petrol.

For instance some people think that petrol blended with WVO will float to the top. Now, to me this is absurd and only proves the individual has not actually poured petrol on top of WVO.

Now that petrol blending is gaining acceptance I find there are still some irrational fears associated with the practice that have to be over come, such as petrol floating on top of WVO in the fuel tank. Also, increasing the percentage of petrol over 5-10%

Blending petrol at only 5-10% with WVO is simply inadequate and, while it might work in the summer, it is bound to fail when the temperatures drop close to freezing. So, just getting people to run petrol in their waste oil blends at 15% is great, because that blend is closest to the performance of diesel fuel, and will tend to work year round in mild climates. However, it can cause problems for people who have heated fuel systems.

So, blending ULP at 20% in fuel for your engine resulted in a "deep rumble" inside your engine. I cannot even imagine how a petrol based waste oil blend would cause a "deep rumble" inside your engine, but hey it is your observation.

Now, I have run my engine on 20% petrol-based waste oil blends for 5 years without any problem at all. And, recently I have run larger percentages of petrol in my blends up to 45% with no problem at all, just increased power and lower emissions.

Now, I am not saying you are a liar, nor am I saying that blending petrol in waste oil up to 50% will work in all engines. I am just saying it is likely to work in most diesel engines. I say that to over come the irrational fears that people tend to have in regards to blending petrol in waste oil diesel fuel.

Tim-HJ61
4th March 2012, 11:57 AM
(% -supposed to be a % sign. ° supposed to be a degrees symbol)

Thank you for your explanations Jeffrey. I imagine you have found this forum generally supportive of blending as evidenced by the establishment of a section just for such discussions.

If I recall correctly, at the time I ran the 20% blend I still had my heat exchanger turned on, or maybe it was a normal hot summers day - 35°C (35 degrees C) ambient with under bonnet temps around 60°C (60 degrees C) and a looped return, or maybe all of the above. These factors combined and what I suspect happened was that preignition was occurring, causing the 'deep rumble'. I thought I'd done a big end. My experience is mine. Yours is yours with your climate, setup and engine.


Now, I am not saying you are a liar, nor am I saying that blending petrol in waste oil up to 50% will work in all engines. I am just saying it is likely to work in most diesel engines. I say that to over come the irrational fears that people tend to have in regards to blending petrol in waste oil diesel fuel.

We are in agreement.

Tim

tillyfromparadise
4th March 2012, 03:57 PM
Hi Jeffrey %

...to see if gasoline could be used as a solvent for thinning waste oil for use as a diesel fuel, I blended in several wide-mouthed one-quart (liter) canning jars varying blends of WVO and unleaded gasoline (petrol). They were 5%, 10%, 15% and 20% regular unleaded gasoline (RUG, petrol). I found that the unleaded gasoline (petrol) mixed readily with nothing more then a few gentle swirls of the blend,... For instance some people think that petrol blended with WVO will float to the top. Now, to me this is absurd and only proves the individual has not actually poured petrol on top of WVO.
I performed a test.
I do not have any wide mouth quart jars available so I used my trusty 2 litre Dr Pepper bottle instead.
I thought that earlier problems I have had replicating your automatic mixing experiments might have been because I am performing it at too high a temperature. So I cooled my litre of best transparent WVO (A minimum of 2 years in the settling drum) and about 200ml petrol to about 5deg C.
I then added the petrol to the bottle by pouring it fast through a funnel.
The petrol did penetrated the WVO by a few inches and then immediately rose back and floated on top of the WVO with a bare minimum of mixing.
After sitting for an hour with no noticeable mixing I then performed the swirling.
Being mindful of the Coriolis effect I swirled first in a clock-wise manner and then in an anti-clockwise manner.
I then set the bottle down for 10 minutes.
After 10 minutes I could see two distinct layers in the bottle
20 hours later I can still see two distinct layers in the bottle.The top layer is about 1/3 of the contents of the bottle.
Your swirling method does not appear to mix the petrol and WVO very well.
How do you swirl the fuel after you put it in your van?




Another thing to keep in mind is one can actually increase the gasoline content of a waste oil blend up to 50% without damaging a diesel engine...Now, I am not saying you are a liar, nor am I saying that blending petrol in waste oil up to 50% will work in all engines.





Recent experiments with new canola oil and new 10/40 motor oil have shown that these oils behaves very similarly. Thus, we can extrapolate similar behavior over similar temperature ranges between WVO and WMO. We can also conclude that gasoline readily blends with waste vegetable oil and/or motor oil and does not separate. I am dieing to know what tests you performed with the new canola oil and motor oil that seemingly allows you to Extrapolate "similar behaviours" between all WVO and WMO and apparently further shows that gasoline readily blends with all WVO and WMO.That must have been one humdinger of a test series you ran.
 

tillyfromparadise
4th March 2012, 04:42 PM
Hi Jeffrey, %

Now, I have run my engine on 20% petrol-based waste oil blends for 5 years without any problem at all...I have been doing biofuels research (http://I have been doing biofuels research) with an old 6.2L diesel engine for four years. My method is blending gasoline with vegetable oil at 20% gasoline/80% Waste Vegetable Oil (WVO).

I find the STANADYNE DB2 Injection Pumps are failing after about 9 months on the above fuel blend.

peter1
5th March 2012, 12:48 AM
When I first started posting my findings with blending petrol with waste oils I was banned from most of those forums just for advocating blending petrol in diesel fuels.

jeff you have been on every forum I have ever seen. Saying you were banned because you advocated petrol blending is simply not true in any way. the reason you were banned for a number of forums I saw was becausee you became argumentitive with anyone that disagreed with ANYTHING you said, you became abusive to moderators for not banning anyone that had a different position to yourself, You posted and argued for information that was patentely wrong and dangerous and to be honest you became irrational in your obsession with petrol blending.
I am sorry but the only reason for you being banned anywhere was from your own behaviour.

I questioned your findings on one of your you tube videos earnestly and politely and you instantly banned me from commenting on any of your vids.



Blending petrol at only 5-10% with WVO is simply inadequate and, while it might work in the summer, it is bound to fail when the temperatures drop close to freezing.

Correct but here in Australia as already explained, only a small percentage of the time does the weather get to freezing. I would experience it for about a month if that in Sydney.
In my experience, 5-10% of petrol is far from inadequate in the vehicles I have run it in or my climactic conditions. To say otherwise is misinformation and lack of experience on your part. I am running 5% now in 2 vehicles and the difference over straight oil is highly significant even with that small amount.


So, just getting people to run petrol in their waste oil blends at 15% is great,
I find this comment very telling and interesting.
It gells with your over all apparent obsession for people to run petrol blends and indicates what is apparent in your postings that you have taken it on as your duty in life to get people to do this.
What is the difference to you what they do? If they run SVO, bio or anything else, surely that is an individual choice. I am honestly mystified at the way you seem to take blending as some sort of personal crusade and take any comments about it or your opinion on anything to do with it so terribly personally.



However, it can cause problems for people who have heated fuel systems.


Make no mistake, blending with petrol at 10% or greater HAS caused problems for me even in unheated systems.
Your experience seems to be limited to what happens with YOUR vehicle. many other people have experience with multiple vehicles and as such get results which are not the same as your own.
I think you would do well to take that into account before making such blanket statements as you have a tendancy to do.



Now, I have run my engine on 20% petrol-based waste oil blends for 5 years without any problem at all. And, recently I have run larger percentages of petrol in my blends up to 45% with no problem at all, just increased power and lower emissions.

That is not what I have read in previous postings of yours elsewhere. I read some time back you had been through a number of injector pumps on your van but became indignant at the suggestion this could be caused by either your oil preparation methods or your blending practices.

Based on my experience, I find it extremely doubtful that many people would experience increased power with 45% blends. The actual energy value of that ratio blend would most likley be lower than say a 10% blend and the combustion charistic of such a blend would definately be way off for most diesel engines. Unless the timing was wound way back which would result in a power loss in itself, most Diesel engines would be experience huge problems with pre ignition.
As for lower emissions, lower than what? 10% blend, diesel, Biodiesel?
Just because you may see lower smoke emissions from the tailpipe is not to say that your overall emissions are lower. On a blend of petrol that high, I'd be willing to bet they were higher than lower blends of 5-10%, Diesel or Biodiesel.


Now, I am not saying you are a liar, nor am I saying that blending petrol in waste oil up to 50% will work in all engines. I am just saying it is likely to work in most diesel engines. I say that to over come the irrational fears that people tend to have in regards to blending petrol in waste oil diesel fuel.

You believe 50% petrol/ WVO is LIKLEY to work in MOST diesel engines?
Can you suggest what you base that belief on? Can you give a rundown on how many engines and tyes you have tested it on and under what conditions?
Personally I find that to be an extremely misleading statement and highly UNLIKLEY to be true. I know from past experience with several different vehicles I have used blends with this would catergoricaly not work in anything like the conditions I ever operate my vehicle in.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your comment. Looking at the second part of the quote, I am unsure if you are saying there that in fact you don't believe this but are simply overstating the truth so as to give people a sense of security with lower blends. I suggest this is not the right approach and you would be better off sticking to facts which you can support through experiments on multiple vehicles.

peter1
5th March 2012, 12:55 AM
I find the STANADYNE DB2 Injection Pumps are failing after about 9 months on the above fuel blend.

I read some time back a discussion where you mentioned going through multiple IP's but when questioned about your " I have had no problems" comment, you argued that the many problems you had with pumps was not because of the blends, it was always something else.

I have never heard of anyone else going through as many pumps in as short a time frame as you have and would have to think that saying you have had no problems is highly misleading and basicaly denial.
If the problems were caused by other factors, you should be up front and say what they were.
Claiming you have had no problems is not going to appear to be honest to anyone that finds out you have been through multiple injector pumps without ever being up front about it.

Jeffrey S. Brooks
5th March 2012, 01:08 AM
My going through numerous sets of injectors and injector pumps has been responded to many times. It is something called "research." Clearly research is not understood by the members of this forum. Research is what you do to figure out something. And, when doing research it is useful to report your failures, so that if someone else is doing similar research to you, then they might have dealt with a similar problem and will report that. Now that all seems to be a problem for Peter1 and Tilly, but then, they clearly do not understand research. Is that just too argumentative for you? Or, are you going to resort to character assassination and flaming me, as was done on all of those forums where I was banned, but you failed to report that didn't you?

Captaincademan
5th March 2012, 09:56 AM
Jeffery,

You are not doing yourself any favours here mate. I will tell you now, you are not a subject of "character assisination", you are not being "unfairly treated" and in my opinion, the forum members have been unfairly easy on your rants.

Grow up and accept some criticism when its due.

And for goodness sake stop being so damn self righteuos and implying that the rest of the forum members are either, dumb, useless or uneducated. You have no idea who these people are, their backgrounds or experiences, even though you are happy to tell everyone that you are gods gift to the alternate fuel industry.

Healty debate is so important, but I hate to see this great information sharing portal reduced to petty slander and school boy behaviour.

And you have not once responded to my reasonable request to stop labelling your experimental toxic blends as "Diesel Fuel". they should be clearly labelled as "unverified fuel alternative" or something similar so some poor young sap doesnt think that its ok to put paint stripper in through his injector pump.

Just for the record, this is not an attempt to blacken your name, your "character" or your "experiments", I am just fed up with you assuming that we are all dumb.

I got news for you, some of us actually run a modern vehicle successfully on alternate fuels that doesnt look like it was made for "Mad Max". Quality control is everything to a lot of the forum members here, and to say that these people dont understand research is just plain ignorant. Many of us have up to $50,000 aussie dollars invested (and more in some cases) in our vehicles, so we have a strong desire to not destroy our cars.

If you back off on the "I am being teased" line, you will find a much more cooperative forum.

peter1
5th March 2012, 07:40 PM
My going through numerous sets of injectors and injector pumps has been responded to many times. It is something called "research." Clearly research is not understood by the members of this forum. Research is what you do to figure out something. And, when doing research it is useful to report your failures, so that if someone else is doing similar research to you, then they might have dealt with a similar problem and will report that. Now that all seems to be a problem for Peter1 and Tilly, but then, they clearly do not understand research. Is that just too argumentative for you?

I get research, you are not the only one that has done it or done it with Vegetable fuels. The fact you admit ( when pushed) that you have had failures is exactly the reason I cannot understand why you say:

Now, I have run my engine on 20% petrol-based waste oil blends for 5 years without any problem at all...I have been doing biofuels research (http://i%20have%20been%20doing%20biofuels%20research/) with an old 6.2L diesel engine for four years.


So you are saying you have had no problems at all for 5 years but have been "researching" with your 6.2 van which you HAVE had failures with for 4 years??
I cannot get my head around how that adds up.
I thought you may have meant you had been researching and subsequently on conclusion of that research, had experienced no problems but that does not seem to be the case at all.

What exactly do you call a "Problem"? To myself and I'm sure most people running vegetable fuels, an IP failure is a BIG Problem. Basically, it's the ultimate problem and the one people most try to avoid.




Or, are you going to resort to character assassination and flaming me, as was done on all of those forums where I was banned, but you failed to report that didn't you?

Jeff I NEVER saw where you were character assassinated as you put it so there was nothing to report. Your "information was burned at the stake because so much of it was patently wrong and completely dangerous to anyone who followed it.
You appear to be going down the self same road here yet again. You seem to take any questioning or rebuttal of your opinion ( and without supporting and reproducible document procedures, that is all you present) as a personal attack which it is not.
On other forums, you also attacked the management when they pointed out the issues they were having with your personal nature complaints when there were not any happening.

Whenever your opinion is questioned, you immediately start questioning the agendas of the members and forum managers and by your implications, accuse them of some sort of conspiracy to "Deter meaningful Dialogue" about blending.
Could you suggest any reason that you think there is any motivation for anyone to do that? I have seen on several occasions you make it sound like some secret government department agenda.

If anyone gets personal, it is YOU. All people are interested in here is getting results that can verify for themselves and be confident their experience will be same as the favorable ones reported and the procedures and formulations they use can be trusted to be safe and reliable.

That is the priority, not attacking the messenger..... unless they carry on in an unprofessional and child like manner.

If you believe in your results, stand by them and answer the questions people have in the genuine way they are asked. If your information is good people will see that and if it's not, you like anyone else can expect to have the flaws in it shown up and debated.