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TomReade
5th September 2012, 02:59 AM
Hi
I Live in Scotland on a small Island where our fuel prices have reached 1.52 a L of Diesel! Hence why i am now wanting to use WVO to Fuel my Land rover Defender 300TDI (She is a thirsty Bugger!)

I have already set up one 45 gallon drum and have about 40gallons of 25micron filtered WVO.

I am planning to run on a 50:50 or as close as I can. And probably end up making Bio Diesel later this year after i see how my landrover runs on the WVO.

Here is my Plan for my set up.

The Orange lines are pipes. and the red circles on them are Valves.

http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u451/tomreade93/Bits%20and Bobs/BioFuelsetup.jpg

I simply pour the WVO into the first tank through three filters 200Micron 50micron and 25micron.
I will then let it sit for a week or so then I can pump it to the next tank through a 5Micron filter.
Once in the tank i Can heat it using a heating element and a thermostat to keep it at about 100C until the water evaporates off? While this is on i can circulate the oil to help air dry it as well?
Once I have done A test for water and i am happy I will pass it through a 1M inline filter while it is still warm into my holding tank :D

Is there anything I can do to improve this set up?
when I am filling the car up do you recommend i mix the Diesel with the veggy oil before i put it in the tank or can i just pour the same amount of each into the tank and let it mix itself?

Any help would be Greatly appreciated Tom

tbird650
5th September 2012, 09:43 PM
Hi Tom
Welcome to the blending forum.
A few ideas and observations.

First process is to strip out the fats and solids. I use a nylon filter sock of unknown micron sorry but it holds 99.9percent of fats while letting the oil through.
It needs 24hr or so to bleed out the liquid golden oil. The sock holds 20litres at a time and the fat residue goes firm and dry-ish.
http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z414/3by7/vegevan2003.jpg
At this point I'd add the diesel because it will help drop the water out and make further filtering easier. I'd filter at the ambient temperature you expect to operate your vehicle in. So no added heat. Hot filtering will melt fats and because it's a blend you won't need heat. Settling time is your friend.

Tony From West Oz
5th September 2012, 10:24 PM
Tom,
Welcome to the forum.

I agree with tbird650, use the mesh filter to remove the fats and larger particles, forget about the staged filtering into the first drum - it is a waste when using a mesh filter and would only block up with fats anyway.

Can you educate your oil supplier to keep the oil indoors after draining? That way you will not have to do much water removal. (the less water in the oil - the less water needs to come out).

You may wish to check out our sticky on the WVO forum for vehicles running on WVO to see if your vehicle is amongst them. Check also on the Biodiesel forum for a similar sticky for vehicles using biodiesel.

In my system, I use 5 micron bag filters and cold filter (no mesh filter in my system) the oil so that any fat remains in the filter, ensuring the oil remains liquid at that ambient temperature. I sew up old T shirt material into liner bags to fit inside the filter bag and I allow the fats to build up in the liner. This improves the filtering rating, but slows the filtering process. When it gets a bit slow, I remove the liner bag and empty it into my fat bucket for a friend to make into biodiesel. I then put the liner back into the filter bag and refill with oil to continue filtering.

I have seen a 200L drum arranged with 5, 7" filter bags in the top to give a large filtering capacity.

Best wishes,
Tony

TomReade
6th September 2012, 09:47 AM
Right :D well the only reason im using 3 filters inside each other is to speed up the filtering as they don't clog up nearly as much as just using one i find!

I Have tried but here in Scotland the rain get EVERYWHERE! so drying is a must i believe!

Is there a flaw in my design or are you saying its just a little over the top?

I guess what im looking for as a final product is a perfectly transparent oil no murkiness?

Is the Murky off yellow color the FATS i am seeing?

Tom

tbird650
6th September 2012, 01:34 PM
I guess what im looking for as a final product is a perfectly transparent oil no murkiness?

Is the Murky off yellow color the FATS i am seeing?


I'd suspect fats or water for that. Get those sorted and you're well on the way to golden transparent oil.
Your approach depends a lot on the treatment the oil got at the source. Some oil comes sparkling while others is laden with fat, water and who knows what else.
Blenders find that making the blend helps with water dropping out plus the fuel is thinned and subsequently filters much faster.
Each has their own methods, developed over time. Opinions vary widely. Try some things and gradually create a sustainable method for yourself. Don't give up. It works.

Become familiar with the hot pan test (HPT) to test oil for water content. Basically, drip oil into a very hot pan. There must be no spitting, popping etc.

Lastly, spend some time studying the forum threads. There is a huge amount of info here. Spend say half an hour a night for the next couple of weeks. All your questions will be answered and you'll learn about ideas you'd otherwise not think of or otherwise come across.

craigcurtin
11th September 2012, 10:43 PM
Hi
I Live in Scotland on a small Island where our fuel prices have reached £1.52 a L of Diesel! Hence why i am now wanting to use WVO to Fuel my Land rover Defender 300TDI (She is a thirsty Bugger!)

I have already set up one 45 gallon drum and have about 40gallons of 25micron filtered WVO.

I am planning to run on a 50:50 or as close as I can. And probably end up making Bio Diesel later this year after i see how my landrover runs on the WVO.

Here is my Plan for my set up.

The Orange lines are pipes. and the red circles on them are Valves.

http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u451/tomreade93/Bits%20and Bobs/BioFuelsetup.jpg
I simply pour the WVO into the first tank through three filters 200Micron 50micron and 25micron.
I will then let it sit for a week or so then I can pump it to the next tank through a 5Micron filter.
Once in the tank i Can heat it using a heating element and a thermostat to keep it at about 100C until the water evaporates off? While this is on i can circulate the oil to help air dry it as well?
Once I have done A test for water and i am happy I will pass it through a 1M inline filter while it is still warm into my holding tank :D
Is there anything I can do to improve this set up?
when I am filling the car up do you recommend i mix the Diesel with the veggy oil before i put it in the tank or can i just pour the same amount of each into the tank and let it mix itself?

Any help would be Greatly appreciated Tom


Put a drain at the bottom of your 600 litre storage tank and tilt it slightly towards the drain.

Do not take oil from the very bottom for your car - move your outlet up about 4 inches.

Regularly drain off 20 - 25 litres from the bottom and put it back through the system

I personally am a big fan of gravity and upflow settling (but i do not live in Scotland) _ if you have space and time then setup a number of drums in series as a set of upflow settling drums - this will be the most effective way to get your oil clean

Craig

TomReade
17th April 2013, 10:17 AM
Right im back!
Ive been just simply filtering down to 10 micron with a sock filter then settling and finally throwing it in a old Fryer to make sure its dry before mixing with diesel when its cold.
So far so good no Build up or problems along the way apart from day one when the fuel filter clogged up after 3 miles! :eek:

Im now looking into making Biodiesel.

A friend has offered me a Ecotec 200L system it comes with 150l of methanol and all the kit + 500l of oil.
which I might take him up on.

Im posting as I was wondering

What Micron should I filter down to if im making BioDiesel?

Tom

TomReade
17th April 2013, 10:20 AM
I personally am a big fan of gravity and upflow settling (but i do not live in Scotland) _ if you have space and time then setup a number of drums in series as a set of upflow settling drums - this will be the most effective way to get your oil clean

Craig

I forgot to mention I have indeed made a 1 tank Upflow System but I am looking to make it into a Dual tank set up with a Filter between them. :)

I have to say that it works very well I will post a wee Diagram of my set up tomorrow.

craigcurtin
17th April 2013, 11:22 AM
No need to filter at all if you are making BIO. What i personally do (as i make BIO for startup and short trips and WVO for long trips) is drop all of my oil into plastic 44 gallon drums - on top of these i have a fine flyscreen mesh to catch any big bits. Once a drum is full i let the oil it for at least a month - i then usually take the top 1/2 of the drum for my WVO (filtering etc still needed) and the bottom 1/2 for my BIO making - all the heavy oils and fats settle to the bottom - just leave the last little bit of each drum as this will contain any free water and heavily contaminated oils/fats.

This has two benefits - as i am not filtering through socks etc initially my filtering process is sped up dramatically as the oil i am sending through once taken from the top of the drum is nice and thin and clear, it also means i do not have to clean out my filters as often and replace them/wash them.

The only thing to watch for is the gel point of your BIO as you are making it from the heavier oils etc so they gel point wiill be higher which would i imagine be a concern in winter in Scotland - you could probably get additives to help with this or just try blending the BIO with some ULP - i found this helped a lot when we went skiing last year - my BIO did not gel at all.

Craig

Threegees
17th April 2013, 06:33 PM
Hi Tom,
While I'm not a fan of using SVO, one thing I recommend you do is (and this applies to running Bio as well) is use only genuine LR fuel filters,non-genuine filters are not compatable and release plasticisers into the fuel which stick pumps and injectors,. I have proven this in a 300tdi Disco and a TD5 I"m
running now, we ran two TD5's on my fuel for 5 years and the one on non-genuine filters went through 3 fuel pumps (they literally stuck together and burnt out) the one with genuine LR filters,mine, still has the same pump!, cheap insurance for your engine!
Cheers Gregg

tillyfromparadise
18th April 2013, 08:35 AM
Hi Gregg,
welcome to the forum.
That is a new one on me. This is the first time I have heard of plasticizers being released from non-genuine fuel filters that result in the destruction of injector pumps.
Over the years I have used non-genuine fuel filters exclusively in all my biodiesel vehicles and have experienced no problems.

To be honest, I find it hard to believe this was the cause of your injector pump failures.
Can you explain how you came to the conclusion that the three IP failures in your car was the result of using non-genuine fuel filters that released plasticizers into the fuel system.
What testing was performed and how was it finally determined that this was the problem.
Hi Tom,
While I'm not a fan of using SVO, one thing I recommend you do is (and this applies to running Bio as well) is use only genuine LR fuel filters,non-genuine filters are not compatable and release plasticisers into the fuel which stick pumps and injectors,. I have proven this in a 300tdi Disco and a TD5 I"m
running now, we ran two TD5's on my fuel for 5 years and the one on non-genuine filters went through 3 fuel pumps (they literally stuck together and burnt out) the one with genuine LR filters,mine, still has the same pump!, cheap insurance for your engine!
Cheers Gregg

TomReade
18th April 2013, 09:47 AM
Allright thanks for that info on the Filters! - How would I check if the filters i have just now are causing any build up?

oh so no need to filter my WVO for bio fuel then! that saves me a load of work time and money! haha

i was offerd a Ecotec 200L processor it comes with
150l methanol (sealed 25l drums)
500L WVO
20kg of sodium carbonate but it looks to have absorbed moisture and is hard?
all the titration bottles, heating pads, indicators etc
and books.
All of this for 1k do you think its worth it?

tillyfromparadise
18th April 2013, 10:27 AM
Hi TomReade,

Allright thanks for that info on the Filters! - How would I check if the filters i have just now are causing any build up? Excellent question. In the 12 years I have been making biodiesel this is the first time I have heard about non-original fuel filters releasing plasticizers into the fuel and ruining fuel pumps.
More information is needed at this point to find out how this problem was diagnosed. Even then I personalty would not be concerned.

craigcurtin
18th April 2013, 11:51 AM
I do not know the specific processor you have listed - but getting 500L of decent WVO and 150L Methanol for the 1K (pounds i assume ?) sounds reasonable to me.

If the processor is cone bottomed and has various plumbing fittings etc then it sounds like a bargain

Not sure what the Sodium Carbonate is for - you want either NaOH or KOH for BIO making

Craig

Threegees
18th April 2013, 05:16 PM
Hi all,
First of all ,I forgot I was not on the Landrover forum and people may not be familiar with the TD5 fuel system...my bad!!. TD5's have no injection pump ,each pot has it's own unit injector driven off the camshaft to compress the fuel, then a electronic injector delivers the fuel, so each cylinder has it's own pump and injector, very flash for it's time and delivers great performance from a 2.5 l engine.Now, in the fuel tank is a two stage electric pump which sucks fuel from the tank and pumps fuel into the filter, then back into the high pressure side of the pump ,then up to the fuel rail, it's basically the first "common rail" 4wd engine. The plastcisiers get into the high pressure side of the pump and "glue" the impellor to the housing, we have seen this on 3 seperate occasions,all on the car with the non-genuine filter, the fuel tank also smells like a tin of oil-based paint this is a dead give away that the fuel is compromised. Now....on a older car with a mechanical pump, this is not so much a problem,BUT!!, with my previous 300 TDi it was a problem after a year or so, the goveror started to surge and made the car hard to drive smooth, had the pump pulled down , no damage but full of "glue", we thought it was glycerine and carried on!!!. It took another 3 years of trial and error and wonderfull mates who let their cars be test dummies to finally realise that the only common denominator in all the vehicles was the filters. The plasticers are so fine they cannot be filtered out, they are a liquid essentially and very clean!!,they also build up in the fuel as it returns hot from the engine, on the 3rd pump failure of my mates TD5, I sugested the only difference was the filter??, the tank was drained of the smelly fuel, filter changed to a genuine, filled with new fuel from my processor (same as allways) and new pump fitted...that was 3 years ago and it's still going strong with no smell!
I have other stories about other cars I supply with fuel, but I'm sick of typing now!! me tradesman...not typist!
Hope this helps.
Cheers Gregg

tillyfromparadise
19th April 2013, 12:36 AM
Hi
Gregg,
Hi all,
...The plastcisiers get into the high pressure side of the pump and "glue" the impellor to the housing, we have seen this on 3 seperate occasions,...Let's just stop here for a second. How was it determined that the "glue" was plasticizers from the fuel filter? Just saying it is does not mean it is. There must have been some meaningful scientific testing performed to come to such an unusual conclusion.




the fuel tank also smells like a tin of oil-based paint this is a dead give away that the fuel is compromised.Interesting that you bring that up. For the last several days I have been cleaning out old plastic 20 litre containers that I have stored biodiesel in. They all smell exactly as you describe and the liquid in them is quite thick. This is referred to as oxidation and polymerization. It has nothing to do with plasticizers emanating from non-original fuel filters.




...I sugested the only difference was the filter??, the tank was drained of the smelly fuel, filter changed to a genuine, filled with new fuel from my processor (same as allways) and new pump fitted...that was 3 years ago and it's still going strong with no smell!I am getting the feeling that there was not actually any real testing performed.
You removed the contaminated fuel, replaced the fuel filter, and the car has run fine ever since. Sounds good to me





I have other stories about other cars I supply with fuel, but I'm sick of typing now!! me tradesman...not typist!Over the last 12 years I have heard a lot of stories about biodiesel too. Many them were not accurate.

PS If there was actually any meaningful testing performed I would sure like to read it. A hyperlink would be great.

Threegees
19th April 2013, 05:20 PM
Hi Tilly,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First point, we tested two indentical vehicles side by side for nearly 5 yrs and over 100 00km, the one with non genuine filters failed three fuel pumps(in tank electric) and the other is still running the same pump. the only difference being the filter, I can't see how you fail to see this is a legitament test? Once the filter was changed , the vehicle was run on the same fuel and since then, nearly 3 yrs, no further problems have arisen. Once again , the only difference was a different filter, I have been making Bio-dsiesel for nearly 16 yrs and have had many different engines running side by side to do comparisons on, I'm not a mechanic or chemist, but I've had a lot of time to know what works and dosen't. It took several attempts to find a suitable filter for the fuel processor, Delphi seems to be the best I found, Ryco and fleetguard were the two worst for being affected by the fuel, the Fleetguard lost it's paint and the paper swelled in a very short time.<br><br>As far as "meaningful scientific testing" goes , I don't keep charts or write reports, I just make fuel and learn from my mistakes and results, as far as I'm concerned, if a tank of fuel changes it's smell in the car, something is not right !&nbsp; Whether you call them polymers or whatever, I know what worked for me and in my case, making fuel for other people, I have to be confident in the product I make, and apart from the vehicle I mentioned, we haven't had one fuel related breakdown in ten yrs .. touch wood!!. <br><br>In the early days we had problems using flexible PVC tube in the plant , but once that was replaced with nylon and viton , that solved stickiness in the fuel, but that took a long time to discover as well!, no internet for me back then, just books !<br><br>I'm just trying to pass on some advice I've learnt over the yrs?<br><br>PS, I haven't got a clue what a "hyperlink" is<img class="inlineimg" title="Wink" border="0" alt="" src="http://www.biofuelsforum.com/images/smilies/wink.png" smilieid="4"><br><br>Cheers Gregg

Tony From West Oz
20th April 2013, 12:08 AM
3gs,
It looks like you typed your response in a web page editor.
Please use notepad or type straight into the reply panel. All of the "&nbsp;","&nbsp" and "<br>". etc are making your reply difficult to read.

Regards,
Tony

Threegees
20th April 2013, 12:22 PM
Hi Tilly , I did post a long and detailed reply, but I see it isn't up yet?

Gregg

RODEONICK
23rd April 2013, 09:33 AM
Tom , sounds like a rip off to me. Im currently living in wiltshire, UK and that is a steep price. If your ever down these parts let me know and ill run you through the basics if you like.

tillyfromparadise
24th April 2013, 01:47 PM
Hi Gregg,

First point, we tested two indentical vehicles side by side for nearly 5 yrs and over 100 00km, the one with non genuine filters failed three fuel pumps(in tank electric) and the other is still running the same pump. the only difference being the filter, I see. It was the fuel pumps in the fuel tank that were failing and not the IP that was failing. So whether the IP is high pressure common-rail or one of the older lower pressure IP's, it has nothing to do with the problem.

What do you mean by "side by side"? Were the side by side tests conducted on both cars that had being bought new at the same time and over the next 5 years the cars were used by the same driver on alternate days driving to the same places and in identical conditions and there was never anything other than your biodiesel to fuel the cars from new?
If two different people owned and used these cars there will be many many differences in the conditions and manner they were operated over the years besides the fuel filters being used.




I can't see how you fail to see this is a legitament test?A legitimate test of what? I am only questioning your statement that non-original fuel filters release plasticisers into the fuel which stick pumps and injectors. So far I see nothing in your "testing" that makes me come to that conclusion or that it is a legitimate test of anything.
It certainly does not demonstrate that non-original fuel filters release plasticisers into the fuel which stick pumps and injectors.




Once the filter was changed , the vehicle was run on the same fuel and since then, nearly 3 yrs, no further problems have arisen. Once again , the only difference was a different filter, Unless you bought both cars from new and operated them as I described above, there will have been many differences besides the fuel filters.



It took several attempts to find a suitable filter for the fuel processor, Delphi seems to be the best I found, Ryco and fleetguard were the two worst for being affected by the fuel, the Fleetguard lost it's paint and the paper swelled in a very short time.We are not talking about filters for the processor we are talking about fuel filters on cars. Also, unless the paint is on the inside of the filter, which is very unlikely, paint failing on the outside of the filter has nothing to do with the filtering qualities of the filter.
Which paper swelled? Was it the filter medium inside the filter? Did you cut the filters open to have a look?



As far as "meaningful scientific testing" goes , I don't keep charts or write reports, I just make fuel and learn from my mistakes and results, as far as I'm concerned, if a tank of fuel changes it's smell in the car, something is not rightYes, it has probably oxidized. This is often an indication of older fuel stored in containers that were not airtight.




Whether you call them polymers or whatever, I know what worked for me and in my case, making fuel for other people, I have to be confident in the product I make, and apart from the vehicle I mentioned, we haven't had one fuel related breakdown in ten yrs .. touch wood!!.I am glad to hear you have not had any further problems. Just make sure to fill the storage containers to the top and close them so that therse is no chance of air getting into the container Also make sure you use your biodiesel in a timely manner so that it does not sit in storage for long periods..

I still do not understand how you ever concluded that the problem was plasticisers coming out of non-original fuel filters. That is just so out of left field. I do not think I would have thought of that in 100 years.



I haven't got a clue what a "hyperlink" is
Cheers Gregg
The line below is a hyperlink. Click on it and see how useful hyperlinks are.
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/H/hyperlink.html

EDIT
Actually, thinking about this, the fact that the problem was with the fuel pumps in the fuel tank and not with the IP, that is a good indication that whatever the problem was was not due to the fuel filters. Otherwise the IP would have been affected too.

(http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/H/hyperlink.html)

tillyfromparadise
24th April 2013, 11:04 PM
Hi Gregg,
additional information to my above post
... Ryco and fleetguard were the two worst for being affected by the fuel, the Fleetguard lost it's paint and the paper swelled in a very short time."Fleetguard is a brand name of Cummins Filtration, the filter company of Cummins, Inc that builds all filters for Cummins OEM applications."

If you have a Cummins or Mopar diesel it has a Fleetguard fuel filter as OEM
See the hyper links below;)
Fleetguard Filters Guide (http://www.diesel-service-parts.com/fleetguard-filters.html)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mopar

Threegees
25th April 2013, 01:11 PM
Tilly, to answer your questions , again, please go back and read my first post on TD5 engines, they do NOT have IP as you say, the pump in the tank is a two stage pump that supplies fuel to the fuel rail, this pump has two ceramic discs that , on three seperate occasions , became stuck due to a substance , plasticisers or whatever you wan't to call it and thus burnt out the motor. I say again, this only happened on the car with the non- genuine filter and odd smelling fuel. To answer your second question, both cars are identical in every way, using the same fuel from the same proceesor and most times from the same batch, no other fuel was added to either vehicle and the fuel was never more than a week old. I say again, the ONLY difference being the fuel filters, to have three pumps fail in a row on one car and not another surely points to one common denominator...or don't you get that? Furthermore , since the filter change, the problem vehicle has had no further issues, what more proof do you want!

I admit I don't have the resources to test the exact properties of the contaminant, but its' sticky and does not wash away with fuel or water, so I'm only summisng it's origin, but if ti were oxidation, then my car would be suffereing the same problems, which it isn't?.

Second point, fuel filteers, whether on the plant or in a car , play a vital role in the quality of the fuel ,so it's important to have compatible ones in all stages of the process. The paint on the fleetguard was indeed on the inside (why would I worry about the outside??), and also the element quickly swelled and became unusable in a very short time and yes I DID cut the filter open to check, I have cut many filters and pumps open so I do know what I'm talking about.. If you have had as much time as I have making fuel and trying many different things, you'd know what things work and what don't through trial and error, and making many mistakes!

As you know , a lot of materials are NOT suitable for use with Bio-Diesel and SVO, PVC, Poly prop and many others , including Brass and Bronze (to some degree) to name just a couple, I'm not saying that all OEM filters are compatible and not all non-genuine aren't, but I stand by my results 100&#37;, whether you agree with them or not, I really don't care!.
My orignal post was to give some advice to a fellow Landrover owner from things I have experienced in over 15yrs of fuel making, you can take it or leave it! But my fuel customers, some who have been using my fuel for a decade ,seem to be happy with my efforts?

Cheers Gregg

tillyfromparadise
25th April 2013, 03:57 PM
&#37;
Hi Gregg,

Tilly, to answer your questions , again, please go back and read my first post on TD5 engines, they do NOT have IP as you say, I looked it up and I found this
Web Rover (http://www.web-rover.co.uk/nav.php?p=td5kb/techfuel)
It says "Unlike most other diesel engines, the Td5 has no fuel injection pump (FIP). The second stage of the fuel pump draws fuel from the filter and pressurises it to 4 bar before supplying it to the engine ..."
4 bar is only 58psi.

I then found this further information on this site- TD5 (http://joaquin.leixa.com/docum/td5/www.discoverytd5.co.uk/td5.htm)
"Td5 typically use 1500 Bar (22,000 psi)...the pressure is created directly and briefly within the injector itself"

In your earlier post you said "each pot has it's own unit injector driven off the camshaft to compress the fuel, then a electronic injector delivers the fuel, so each cylinder has it's own pump"

So it seems that each cylinder is it's own own IP and apparently none of these have failed, only the fuel pump in the fuel tank has failed. That suggests to me that because only the fuel pump in the tank has failed and the injectors have not failed, the problem is not with the filter.





on three seperate occasions , became stuck due to a substance, plasticisers or whatever you wan't to call it and thus burnt out the motor.I want to call it what it really is. There is already way to much wrong information posted on the internet about making biodiesel. So far there has been no meaningful testing performed that I can detect. You are just guessing.
I am surprised a person with all your experience has never heard of oxydation and polymerisation before.





I say again, this only happened on the car with the non- genuine filter and odd smelling fuel.Odd smelling fuel. That indicates his fuel has suffered from oxydation and polymerization. That is usually a production and storage problem.





To answer your second question, both cars are identical in every way,Unless you mean they are owned by the same person who bought them both new just to do this testing they are not identical in every way. You can say they are identical in every way as many times as you like and it will still not be true





Furthermore , since the filter change, the problem vehicle has had no further issues, what more proof do you want!I see no proof. You also drained the smelly fuel. If I were guessing, which I rarely do, the fuel would be my first guess.
All I see is two fellows who own the same sort of car using your biodiesel and one has had fuel pump failures and the other one has not.





The paint on the fleetguard was indeed on the inside (why would I worry about the outside??), and also the element quickly swelled and became unusable in a very short time and yes I DID cut the filter open to check, I have cut many filters and pumps open so I do know what I'm talking aboutThat is interesting that Fleetguard paint the inside of their fuel filters, who would have thought that.
As I said in my last post, Fleetguard fuel filters are original equipment on Cummins Diesels which includes over 2 million diesels used in dodge trucks.
If fleetguard fuel filters are such poor quality there is a problem

EDIT
I just found this on a Landrover discussion site. Whether it is true or not...

"1. There is no such thing as a "genuine Land Rover filter". No honestly, there isn't. Land Rover, like all motor manufacturers buy in the vast majority of components they use to assemble their vehicles. As such, they buy filters (with a pre-determined spec I'm sure) from any one of half a dozen major manufactures of filters around the world, and they alter their suppliers regularly to get the best terms for LR; Coopers, Mahle & UFI are just some of the names that come to mind;

2. You appear to imply that the LR filter gave you problems;

3. There will always be a compromise between effective filtration and permitting the medium (air, oil or fuel) to pass through unhindered. Changing the filters regularly should avoid blockage problems unless there are issues 'upstream' of it.

4. Exactly the same 'genuine' Land Rover fuel filter goes into hundreds of other cars, from Alfa Romeo's to who knows what !!!!

5. There is a difference between an OEM filter and a genuine Land Rover one - 30 seconds in a spray booth for the LR logo and a 100% increase in the price."

craigcurtin
25th April 2013, 05:18 PM
Umm,

Something i am not understanding here (and maybe it is just me being stupid) - how is the pump which is in the fuel tank (and presumably therefore before the filter ? - even if it is a two stage pump ?) being affected by the filter - which is presumably outside of the tank ?

Is the suggestion here that the fuel that is returning to the tank - after the injectors and these nifty little itty bitty pumps in each injector - then somehow returning this plasticizer compound to the tank ?

Just curious to follow through the initial logic - without even worrying about what is the correct filter to use ?

Craig

Threegees
25th April 2013, 05:33 PM
Thanks Tony, don't know what I did there!!
Cheers Gregg

Threegees
25th April 2013, 05:48 PM
Hi Craig,
The fuel is pumped from the tank through the filter, then back to the pump, then on to the fuel rail. All unused fuel, and there can be quite a lot at idle, is returned via the filter (to mix with cooler fuel from the tank) then into the tank. The TD5 fuel system is quite different to normal systems in the way the fuel is piped around. The design of the pump makes it vulnerable to poor fuel, unlike most mechanical IP's which will handle poor quality fuel (including SVO), this pump,like the ones in newer common rail engines, is less forgiving !!,and therefore is a type of "barometer" as far as fuel quality goes.

Cheers Gregg

tillyfromparadise
26th April 2013, 11:40 AM
Hi Gregg,
I have been reading on Landrover forums. It seems the fuel pump in question has known reliability problems. Here are some comments I have located.

Ok the fuel pump issue, I'm about to put in my 4th with 150k on the clock


fuel pump is a right royal pain in the arse to do. probably the most common of faults on the defender.


I am now about to fit the 2nd fuel pump in 18 months gets gunked up garage says its bio fuel that does it.


Thanks for the input guy's. Just how many of these have guys had go on them? Am I an exception? Reason for asking is that perhaps I have a issue that is causing the pumps to fail (3 in the last 40k, although this has been over 3.5 years).


I have heard of cases of the pumps being full of crud due apparantly due to 5&#37; biodiesel in all diesel nowadays so may be possible to lift out of tank and clean off?

I gave the fuel tank a few good kicks after the pump stopped working. Might not be the right way to do it, but it's been working ever since and worth a try.

Threegees
26th April 2013, 07:32 PM
Hi Tilly
Yes , some people have bad luck with them, others do 200 00km or more on the same one?. This is exactly my point on fuel quality and how these pumps sort out the good from the bad?. My pump has done nearly 90 000 km, all on B100, the last one in my mates car did 3 months!!, thats when we replaced the filter with a genuine and that was 3 yrs ago. It would be interesting to do a survey of owners of TD5's and see if the pump failures have any relation to filter types.

A large non- dealer Land Rover parts supplier in my city does not recommend non-genuine filters due to a large number of complaints of fuel problems, mostly with Bio-blends but also with Dino diesel? I'm also on the Queensland LR forum and 99&#37; of the people with premature pump failures run regular diesel, it's almost impossible to by commercial Bio here, so it's not the problem ,when I cut the last Coopers filter apart, the plastic support tube was completly deformed , the paper was not too badly swelled?, but the big concern was the disc that supported the filter paper, it was made of galvenised tin, a combination know to cause oxidation in fuel. There was also a red slime in the filler nozel which was very sticky (same as in the pump), oxidation I assume as well, but this has also gone?

I think it's still a guessing game sometimes as far as component suitabllity is concerned?
Cheers Gregg.

tillyfromparadise
27th April 2013, 10:01 AM
&#37;

Hi Gregg,
Hi Tilly
Yes , some people have bad luck with them, others do 200 00km or more on the same one?. This is exactly my point on fuel quality and how these pumps sort out the good from the bad?.From what I have read It does not seem that fuel quality has anything to do with it.There is a problem with the fuel pump and it frequently fails. Occasionally you will get a good one that lasts a while. It is just luck as to whether your pump lasts or not. And I gather they are very expensive.
All pretty standard for Land Rover





My pump has done nearly 90 000 km, all on B100, the last one in my mates car did 3 months!!, thats when we replaced the filter with a genuine and that was 3 yrs ago. It would be interesting to do a survey of owners of TD5's and see if the pump failures have any relation to filter types. Maybe the colour of the shirt the mechanic was wearing when he installed the fuel pump is important too.





A large non- dealer Land Rover parts supplier in my city does not recommend non-genuine filters due to a large number of complaints of fuel problems, mostly with Bio-blends but also with Dino diesel?
I'm also on the Queensland LR forum and 99%; of the people with premature pump failures run regular diesel, it's almost impossible to by commercial Bio here, so it's not the problem Of course it is not the problem, the problem is with the quality of the design and construction of the pump itself. As soon as you start reading Land Rover discussion forums that becomes obvious.
This morning I found this 2 week old post from a fellow in Melbourne that sums it up rather nicely.
"I have to replace the fuel pump for my TD5 as i am sure most of us have (or soon will) at some stage while owning a TD5 (Disco or Def)"






I think it's still a guessing game sometimes as far as component suitabllity is concerned?
Cheers Gregg. You are the only one who seems to be guessing.
Back to my concern with your statement..."use only genuine LR fuel filters,non-genuine filters are not compatable and release plasticisers into the fuel which stick pumps and injectors,"
I have seen nothing that makes me think that using non genuine fuel filters releases plasticisers into the fuel which sticks pumps and injectors.
The fact that the high pressure pumps in the injectors, which must be built to closer tolerances than the fuel pump in the fuel tank, were not affected is a pretty compelling demonstration that the fuel filter is doing it's job and is not the cause of the problem.


EDIT
I just located this on a Land Rover forum-

"Yesterday put the Old Girl into garage to have a fuel pump replaced as they had fitted it only three months ago, it was screaming as soon as you turned the ignition on and all the time you were driving it, a bit embarrassing in traffic. Besides doing 10,000 miles in the three months and being told I was lucky as the pump (L/R Genuine) only had a 12,000 mile guarantee, it was changed under warranty no problem, but one thing they did say was that it was probably due to the Fuel Filter collapsing internally ( fitted same time as pump) as mine had done and it was a quite common occurrence?...it was a l/r dealer that changed the pump and filter ?"

Threegees
27th April 2013, 04:33 PM
Tilly,
I see there's no pleasing you mate, I'll go away and make fuel for my clients and leave you in peace!, you obviously have a hatred for Landrovers and anyone who has a different oppion to you..., good luck with that.

My apologies to Tom for getting your thread highjacked!, hope your Bio/ Svo project works out and the Deefer" goes well.

Cheers Gregg

tillyfromparadise
27th April 2013, 10:16 PM
Hi Gregg,
I think you will enjoy this video. It demonstrates that there are other ways to fix the TD5 fuel pump problem besides kicking the fuel tank.

Landy TD5 - Fuel pump fails - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb0rTI6GK2o)