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View Full Version : Small quantities of Bio-Diesel available, Brisbane southside.



Threegees
25th May 2013, 01:05 PM
G'day all,
New to the forum but I have been brewing for over 15yrs, one of my regular users is going o/seas so I have his share of fuel available for sale. About 120L per week max or any lesser amount.. The fuel is double cracked, washed to a neutral ph and dried and filtered. Any questions feel free to ask or pm me!

Cheers Gregg.

tillyfromparadise
25th May 2013, 09:31 PM
Hi Gregg,
Does your biodiesel pass the 3/27 test? (http://www.biofuelsforum.com/making_biodiesel/1562-warnqvest_conversion_test_3_27_27_3_a.html)
What is the cost per litre?

Threegees
26th May 2013, 07:23 PM
Hi Tilly,
Yes it does, I test it at around 25deg. ph is usually around 7., all made from veggie oil (no palm oil) and in cold pour tests it gels at about 0 deg cel.

Price is $1.00 L.
Cheers Gregg

tillyfromparadise
26th May 2013, 07:54 PM
Hi Gregg,
I am glad to hear your biodiesel passes the 3/27 test.
I am curious how you are measuring the pH and what you think a pH of 7 tells you about the biodiesel.

250downunder
26th May 2013, 08:28 PM
You are being set up, Threegees. Biodiesel can't have a PH [Potential Hydrogen] No water - No PH.
Most will know that you are referring to the PH of your final wash water.

tillyfromparadise
26th May 2013, 09:18 PM
Hi 250 downumder,
Gregg has been making biodiesel for over 15 years.
He produces biodiesel professonally.
I am not sure what you mean when you say he is being "set up"
Obviously Gregg thinks this neutral pH reading is important. He has mentioned it in both posts.

I am trying to understand how he performes this pH reading and how it is important.
I have not done a pH measurement in the last 10 years.

250downunder
26th May 2013, 10:25 PM
Hi Tilly,
Please excuse my assumption that you were seeking an explanation as to how one can measure the PH of Bio - knowing that you can't. I certainly consider it important to monitor the PH of my wash water.
I regularly measure the PH of my wash water to ascertain when all alkaline materials have been washed from the Bio. I tend to use slightly more than the calculated amount of KOH. I like to think that this, together with very aggressive mixing, gives me a more complete reaction [I can't recall the last time I had a batch fail a 3/27 test]. A PH test of the initial wash water is always strongly alkaline, becoming progressively less alkaline with each successive wash. 4 or 5 washes produces neutral effluent. My reasoning is that any alkaline residual together with water [be it dissolved or accumulated from condensation whilst in vehicle fuel tanks] will surely lead to corrosion of fuel system components.
For this reason, I am very particular with both water washing and thoroughly drying my Bio.

tillyfromparadise
26th May 2013, 11:07 PM
Hi 250 downumder,
I tend to not make assumptions.
Gregg posted that his biodiesel is "washed to a neutral ph" and the "ph is usually around 7". He seemed to be talking about his biodiesel, not the wash water, but it is not clear what he means. That is why I asked him to explain what he means.

A number of years ago several chemists told me that reading the pH of the wash water tells you nothing of importance. That is probably why it is not an ASTM test or any other recognized biodiesel quality test.
NaOH/ KOH has a much stronger attraction to water than to biodiesel so for all practical purposes, any NaOH/KOH remaining in the biodiesel that has not already been consumed in the side reaction making soap, is removed in the first wash. From there, checking the pH in subsequent washes is watching the soap being removed.
Your eyes will also tell you the soap is being removed.

I used to water wash, but for the last three years I have done the "bubble air through the biodiesel" to remove the methanol and allow the biodiesel to sit for at least a month before using.
I am having better results with this method than with water washing.
I Have made this determination by the fact that my cheap inline fuel filters last much longer now than it used to




Hi Tilly,
Please excuse my assumption that you were seeking an explanation as to how one can measure the PH of Bio - knowing that you can't. I certainly consider it important to monitor the PH of my wash water.
I regularly measure the PH of my wash water to ascertain when all alkaline materials have been washed from the Bio. I tend to use slightly more than the calculated amount of KOH. I like to think that this, together with very aggressive mixing, gives me a more complete reaction [I can't recall the last time I had a batch fail a 3/27 test]. A PH test of the initial wash water is always strongly alkaline, becoming progressively less alkaline with each successive wash. 4 or 5 washes produces neutral effluent. My reasoning is that any alkaline residual together with water [be it dissolved or accumulated from condensation whilst in vehicle fuel tanks] will surely lead to corrosion of fuel system components.
For this reason, I am very particular with both water washing and thoroughly drying my Bio.

250downunder
27th May 2013, 09:38 AM
We all tend to develop our methods of producing Bio to suit our particular requirements, for some time is important, for others, quality. Some are concerned with inputs, water, power etc. One could question the importance of 3/27 testing considering that many appear to run straight WVO without major problems.
I have experimented with air washing. I water wash. I Initially fitted pre filters and have removed them, since I had never had one block.

tillyfromparadise
27th May 2013, 11:47 AM
Hi 250downunder.
Indeed, the only test I place any importance in at all is the "Clear and Bright Test". That is the only test I ever do to my production biodiesel.
But then I am not producing biodiesel commercially and selling it to people as Gregg is. When you become a commercial producer quality of product is of paramount concern, it is everything.

250downunder
27th May 2013, 01:32 PM
Risky business without ASTM compliance.

Threegees
27th May 2013, 09:31 PM
Hi all,
You can most certainly test the ph of Bio-diesel, it is hygroscopic and even when "dry" contains a very small amount of water. about 1,200 ppm. You test the ph of your raw oil in your Titration and the small amount of "water" in dry fuel is enough to get a reasonably accurate ph value.,with a very expensive digital meter, it is possible to get a very accurate result. I tried these meters years ago, but they are hard to keep calibrated, so I've been using dedicated litmus paper test strips which are quite accurate and cheap!! It is very important to have a ph around 7 , this ensures that alloy fuel components are not damaged by high ph and steel ones not effected by low ph, it also shows you have done a good job on your wash!,. As Tilly stated, I make fuel for customers , so quality is essential and even though the Australian standard does not mention a ph amount, it is widely advised by many makers, universities and researchers on bio-diesel that a neutral ph is necessary for a high quality fuel. I hope that answers your questions , cheers Gregg.

tillyfromparadise
27th May 2013, 10:08 PM
Hi Gregg,
Do you mean that if my WVO titrates 1 the pH of my oil is 1 and if it titrates 12 the pH of my oil is 12?
Hi all,
...You test the ph of your raw oil in your Titration...

250downunder
28th May 2013, 08:06 AM
Only an aqueous solution can have a PH. Biodiesel is insoluble in water. Bio can't have a PH.
What you can measure is the PH of any water present in the BIO.

tillyfromparadise
28th May 2013, 11:31 AM
Hi 250downunder,
That is the problem with making assumptions.
You assumed Gregg meant he was checking the pH of his wash water. I bet that considering Gregg is a commercial producer, you even thought he was using an electronic pH meter to do these pH checks. However, what he really meant is that he is dipping litmus paper into the biodiesel.
I was a bit surprised with the litmus paper. However, seeing as it is a meaningless test anyway, he might as well use litmus paper and save his money.

250downunder
28th May 2013, 01:25 PM
As a point of interest, is commercially produced Biodiel subject to excise?

Captaincademan
28th May 2013, 02:51 PM
This thread has jumped waaaaayyy of topic. as a side note - pH can be measured in non-aqeuos solutions, but it has a different formula for calculation of the value and the a different scale. one cannot simply use the same measurement equipment to compare aqeuos and non-aqueos solutions. A quick read of Wiki will sort it out. The maths is way beyond my meagre abilities to allow me to provide any further explanation.

As all the nasty bits in the bio are water soluable, but the bio is not, so getting a wash water that measures 7 on a pH scale would generally suggest that only methyl esters remain? (in any significant portion anyway) - assuming it passes the 3/27 test (which I think is a bit arbitrary anyway). Is that a reasonable assumption?

Also, without wanting to make anything harder for a our bretheren and alerting any big brothers out there, I dont think any of us would sell our experimental fuel??? isnt it only for personal experiments??

Surely if we were to sell it, excise would definetly be payable.

brains trust - I am waiting for the comments to flow.....

tillyfromparadise
28th May 2013, 05:27 PM
Hi Cade,

This thread has jumped waaaaayyy of topic.I am not sure it is all that much off topic. We are discussing the testing procedure used to determine the quality of the biodiesel under discussion and whether the test procedure is valid.
Hopefully some misconceptions are being sorted out. Information is flowing and quite frequently these types of discussions result in a greater overall understanding for everyone,


as a side note - pH can be measured in non-aqeuos solutions, but it has a different formula for calculation of the value and the a different scale. one cannot simply use the same measurement equipment to compare aqeuos and non-aqueos solutions. A quick read of Wiki will sort it out. A quick read of the wiki article did not sort it out for me, but your statement that "one cannot simply use the same measurement equipment to compare aqeuos and non-aqueos solutions." is probably a "punch line" in this discussion. Electronic pH meters and Litmus paper are most likely designed to check the pH of aqueous materials, not oils.


As all the nasty bits in the bio are water soluable, but the bio is not, so getting a wash water that measures 7 on a pH scale would generally suggest that only methyl esters remain? (in any significant portion anyway)- assuming it passes the 3/27 test (which I think is a bit arbitrary anyway). Is that a reasonable assumption?Assumptions are bad things to make. {See the above posts} All the "nasty bits" may not necessarily be water soluble, I do not know.. Just off the top of my head I wonder about FFA's, monoglycerides and calcium soaps and whether they are water soluable and detected in the 3/27 test.
Also, the wash water is not necessarily pH 7 to start with. It often contains a "contaminate"
I have been informed that it does not take much "contaminate" to make a fairly big change in the pH of water. Apple juice has a pH of 3.
My pH meter died over 10 years ago. Curious what adding 1g of KOH to a litre of water does to it's pH (titrating fluid).


Also, without wanting to make anything harder for a our bretheren and alerting any big brothers out there, I dont think any of us would sell our experimental fuel??? isnt it only for personal experiments?Yes, it is my understanding that the moneys talked about in this thread are for labour and various overheads.

Captaincademan
28th May 2013, 05:49 PM
I thought the thread was about the fact that Threegees wanted to offload some extra bio he had :)

tillyfromparadise
28th May 2013, 06:05 PM
Hi Cade,
Indeed, you are correct.
If no further discussion is wanted then I am sure the "powers that be" will delete every post in this thread after the original post and this forum can get on with more important matters.



I thought the thread was about the fact that Threegees wanted to offload some extra bio he had :)

Captaincademan
28th May 2013, 09:55 PM
the forum is all yours Tilly. go for it. I was just trying to get the thread back in line so Threegees had a chance to sell his non-profit fuel.

250downunder
29th May 2013, 11:14 AM
I think most of us know the situation regarding Excise. As I see it there appears to be no change in liability whether it is made for personal consumption or for resale and whether a profit is made or otherwise. Establish a licenced manufacturing facility, Bond store etc.[not possible for most]; Make it; pay excise; certify that it meets the required standards [prohibitively expensive for the home producer]; claim the clean fuels rebate.
One really does have to question the wisdom of offering it for sale on a public forum.
Tilly will be along soon to tell us how it really is - all assumptions aside!

tillyfromparadise
29th May 2013, 12:39 PM
Hi 250 downumder,
I have nothing further to say in this thread.

Threegees
29th May 2013, 07:46 PM
To all,
To put all your minds at rest, I do pay exise and payment is for "services rendered" on exceess fuel I produce. As far as PH is concerned, I'll keep doing what I've allways done!,

Cheers Gregg.

250downunder
29th May 2013, 09:10 PM
http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/PrintFriendly.aspx?doc=/content/00200086.htm

Of course you do! No one ever doubted that! After all, it is so easy to comply. But why bother with your own tests when a condition of claiming the cleaner fuels rebate is to have testing done by a certified laboritory. I know, you absorb the 38 cents excise and don't bother to claim the offsetting rebate. After all 38 cents is neither here nor there when you can get $1.00 per litre!

hotdogs
26th August 2014, 11:33 AM
Hi Greg

Just joined the forum. Interested in using biodiesel to power a couple of kerosene pressure burners. I'm guessing B100 is the way to go. Do you still supply a small amount on the southside of brisbane? If so, does your product smell like fish and chips when it burns. That could work for me.

Regards

Peter A

Matt
17th September 2014, 09:11 PM
Good fuel and yes its fish and chips.

linux2
16th June 2016, 10:51 AM
Hi Threegees
Do you still have biodiesel available? I am looking for some on the brisbane southside.

Threegees
17th June 2016, 02:36 PM
Hi Threegees
Do you still have biodiesel available? I am looking for some on the brisbane southside.

Hi inux,
Yes I do have some from time to time. Send me a private message and I will give you my contact details.

Cheers Gregg.