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  • Formation of Australian Biofuel Users

    Just a quick note to let everyone know that all the talk of forming a national body to represent the users of biofuels is turning into something real, slowly but surely.

    We've been discussing some of the semantics for a while now and we seem to have some basic agreement on our mission statement, which is meant to embody in the most simple way possible what it is that we expect to be, how we will be it and why.


    Mission Statement

    Australian Biofuel Users is an organisation whose membership is composed of individual biofuel users and local area (or regional) biofuel users groups.

    ABU exists to:
    • Serve as a national voice on biofuel for the issues pertinent to its members;
    • Promote the increased utilisation of fuels which are economically viable as well as being socially and environmentally responsible;
    • Facilitate communication related to biofuels between the membership and the general public or government;
    • Represent the membership at conferences, events, or gatherings where biofuels is topic or issue requiring representation; and
    • Represent biofuel consumers.

    ABU will achieve these aims by:
    • Fostering co-operation and communication within the membership;
    • Acting as the principal coordinating and lobbying body for the membership;
    • Nurturing unity amongst members by providing a forum for their opinions;
    • Encouraging the development of policies and strategies within the membership that will lead to increased availability of biofuels;
    • Promoting the achievement and maintenance of high standards in biofuel production;
    • Encouraging communication between biofuels suppliers, vehicle industry and consumers; and
    • Encouraging the exchange of information and communication between the membership and the community.

    Hopefully we got everything in there, but I expect we may have missed some bits that the rest of you may think is important. I'd like to open this up for comment and suggestion before we finalise it next week and formally incorporate ourselves. So please, comment away.
    Robert
    Administrator
    Last edited by Robert; 13 October 2006, 10:31 PM.
    Robert.
    Site Admin.

  • #2
    Re: Formation of Australian Biofuel Users

    Any more news on this Robert? it's been a week since you posted this
    Dave

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Formation of Australian Biofuel Users

      Robert, great work and I would love to participate where I can but I note only one mention of suppliers and no mention of manufacturers.

      Are they excluded for any reason. I would think any user group would need manufacturers on side and working together.

      Slippery
      Small steps taken one at a time.
      Slippery
      Small steps taken one at a time.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Formation of Australian Biofuel Users

        Hi Slippery,
        the intent is that it be a group for users of biofuels. If the people that make or supply the biofuels want to join it as users they are most welcome.

        We are not seeking to set up an industry group so to speak - there are already people in the industry who are keeping a very close eye on their own best interests but the end users of the product, whether it is made in a commercial plant or in a garage at home, don't seem to have an effective national body lobbying on their behalf.

        Australian Biofuel Users should certainly work closely with the manufacturers and suppliers however the establishment group felt strongly that there are significant differences that warranted a seperate, indendent group.

        Regards,
        cameron
        Cameron
        Moderator
        Last edited by Cameron; 22 October 2006, 04:18 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Formation of Australian Biofuel Users

          Yes, to echo Cameron's post, we are intending on being representative of users, not producers. If a user is also a producer, either commercially, or at home, is immaterial. We are really trying to simply promote the use of biofuels.
          Representing the commercial producers, as Cameron has pointed out, is already being done. Representing the home producer would make us the natural enemy of the industry and we don't want to go there.

          If a user can get quality supply either from a commercial source, or home produced, we don't care, as long as it is a quality product. We will have home brewers in our membership, I'm sure, but that is not our focus.

          At the end of the day, the user, the consumer of biofuels needs a voice and that is what we intend to do.
          Robert.
          Site Admin.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Formation of Australian Biofuel Users

            Robert,
            As you are going to be effectively distancing yourself from the home brewers, what sort of agenda's will you be addressing that would be of value to those that are self sufficent and not looking to purchase commercialy made BioDiesel?

            Is it a fair assumption to say that while you will be promoting the usage of Bio, you will be avoiding promoting manufacture of it by individuals?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Formation of Australian Biofuel Users

              We are not trying to distance ourselves from the home brewers, but it is true to say that we do not want to show ourselves as home brewers. If home brewers are using biodiesel, they'd qualify and they'd be welcome.
              Agenda... we don't really have any agenda yet (but we have some rough idea - we've still got to get started) . For myself, I'd like to say that the ABU would echo the sentiments of the reason I set up and keep the forum running.

              Clearly the home brew scene is quite strong in the forum here and I am glad of that.

              The reality is that if we want biodiesel to gain mainstream acceptance, we need to find some other face to do it. Industry hate the home producer, manufacturers fear them, the taxman drives them underground and the media marginalise them. I personally don't agree with any of this, but I can see and understand the reasons for this happening.

              I would like to see all these issues simply being sidestepped. It really seriously bugs me that all the people out there making biodiesel are shy and coy about telling anyone that they use it.

              I want to see the people that are using it shouting it from the rooftops. I'd also like to see there being more available and better quality commercial supply (as would some current home brewers). The truth of the matter is that presently much of the "user" scene is underground. I'd like to see this change.

              Perhaps the home brew battle needs to be fought one day. I choose my battles and I recognise that I am not going to win that one. However, I am a passionate biodiesel user and I will remain so. Through this forum and with the help of the rest of you and with some sort of more official vehicle (like the ABU), I'd like to see more good being done.

              Individual clubs (Melbourne Biodiesel, WARFA etc) make biodiesel. That's recognised and embraced, however, we don't care that they make it, just that they use it.

              If anyone wants to start a biodiesel home producers national organisation, more power to them! I wouldn't personally have a role in it, but I'd be happy to help wherever I could (I've actually offered help to things like this in the past).

              Am I rambling now? Does that make sense? This is what happens when you catch me on a Friday night once the kids are in bed and I've had some red wine.
              Robert
              Administrator
              Last edited by Robert; 20 October 2006, 11:49 PM.
              Robert.
              Site Admin.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Formation of Australian Biofuel Users

                Hi,
                Just to take this a little further - I want to reinforce Robert's point that we aren't distancing ourselves from home producers but the commonality that the majority of us have is as users of biofuels. The distaste for home producers that some manufacturers and key people in the BAA have is intense.

                We don't want to differentiate and thus define ourselves along those lines.

                We want to represent the best wishes of the users of biofuels, whether it be 100% commercial biodiesel or SVO or UCO or ultimately even ethanol.

                That is how I see it anyway.

                Cheers,
                Cameron

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Formation of Australian Biofuel Users

                  Hi all
                  If it's the red wine that does it for you Robert is the amber stuff that works for me
                  Seriously I would have thought our name encompasses our role, ABU in my view takes any one who is involved with biofuels under it's wings
                  We are not a renewable resources outfit such as solar, wind, etc There are quite a few groups already Not enough as far as I am concerned
                  Our role has been narrowed down around renewable transport fuels How it is made, where, or by who, should it be of concern to us?
                  I would have thought no
                  In so far as home brewers are concerned I am not so sure that the commercial suppliers give a hoot
                  The views of the rfa as well as the baa are not reflected in the industry
                  I can say categorically home brewers are disliked by waste oil collectors that is about it
                  They hate each other anyway as they steal waste oil from sites they consider "Theirs" they all do it so no big deal
                  I have no issues on both posts They are very "diplomatic" From my point of view they don't need to be
                  We can be quite blatant about it We are a Biofuels body Full stop
                  Cheers
                  Chris
                  Never give up :)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Formation of Australian Biofuel Users

                    I have to say gents I'm still a bit confused about this.

                    Honestly, to me at this point, your honourable motives seem somewhat biased and in fact bowing down to the commercial producers. You are already saying you don't want to upset them ( effectively) or seemingly put them off side.
                    Right now the people that are doing more for the cause of bio fuels than anyone else are the home brewers. How many here as a percentage are makers of bio and how many are buyers only? How much media has " you can now buy this Diesel substitute at the pump" angle got as against the "You can make you own eco friendly fuel" scenario?

                    I understand the promotion of bio fuels for the good of the enviroment but what I don't understand is how you can do this without enlisting the help of the home brewers that as far as I can see, are the majority of the people using bio. If I were a member of your organisation ( which I would be very interested in once I fully understand where you are going with it), If the govt and the commercial producers were to get into cahoots and make the supply of Methanol in some way restricted or more difficult or expensive for the home brewer, what do you guys see as being your course of action to help this segment of the bio fuel users you seek to represent?

                    As I see it, you can't champion the intrests of promoting the wider spread and increased use of bio fuels while letting a lot of current users be put out of the homebrew ( and probably usage) business and you can't expect the support of the home brewers unless you were to speak up and help the cause of the home brewers which it sounds you are reluctant to do because you don't want to take on the commercial producers. Sooner or later I believe that someones side will have to be taken and we all know what happens to fence sitters.

                    The way I see it, Home brewers don't have a lot of issues right now. As long as they can get their oil, meth and hydroxide, they are pretty self sufficent. Sure, they may like to see more and better quality bio available at servos for when they go away on holidays but in the end if they have to resort to using Dino once or twice a year, I'm sure they are not going to suffer too much from it.

                    The Quality and availability of bio fuels at the servo is a very limited concern of the home brewer. It's only the buyers who it is of importance to and as said, they seem to be in the minority of people here at least.

                    The only other issue they have is with excise but again, if this were to be tightend up which would no doubt drive many people out of bio production and useage, how exactly is the ABU going to keep these people using Bio without at the same time championing their cause, upset the dreaded commercial concerns?

                    The potential for home brewers to be put out of business could happen a hell of a lot faster than the infrastructure to be put in place for these people to be able to buy commercialy produced Bio fuels when and where they want them. Loose the support of the home brewers and It is my belief the cause of bio fuel usage and the ability of an organisation to promote it effectively is going to take a big step backwards.

                    If home brewers were to be put out of business because of some change in policy and the organisation that sought membership from them as bio fuel users did nothing to argue their case lest they upset the commercial concerns, I can't see many people bothering to re up their membership dues when the time came again.

                    I do not mean to be argumentitive or a smart arse here, I am looking for input on what tact the ABU would take on these very likely and realistic potential issues which are of great concern to home brewers who would also be Bio fuel users the ABU will no doubt seek ( and need) support from as potential members.

                    In a nut shell, My question is, If I were to become a member of the ABU and I am a home brewer, what are you going to do that would be of benifit to me as a bio fuels user?

                    I understand that this is early days for the organisation but I also think that potential members whom are home brewers would be extremely intrested to know what the ABU's position would be on these issues.
                    If the ABU has not decided or discussed a policy regarding these things as yet, I would suggest it may be benificial to do so very early in the piece.

                    In reading the mission statement and the reasons for the ABU's existance, I cannot see how it is going to achieve it's objectives without a policy on these things and the support of the Home brewers.

                    I think it is extremely likely when the ABU starts seeking the membership numbers it will need in order for it to have any influence or input with organisations or the public, the home brewers will be looking for answers to the Question, " What are you going to do for me?"

                    I for one am very interested to find out

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Formation of Australian Biofuel Users

                      I am not going to try to answer all of your questions about the ABU, but one thing which the ABU may be able to do, is to provide a means of communicating to many other, like minded people about the issues facing biodiesel producers (including the home brewer).

                      Should there be another Biodiesel Excise Exemption Reform campaign (before the next FedElection? Better start planning NOW), this could allow many people to be kept informed, as a service to the ABU members, which it would be difficult to do otherwise.

                      It may be that ABU members would be prepared to support an excise reform campaign, where the ABU itself did not participate in that campaign.
                      Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

                      Current Vehicles in stable:
                      '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
                      '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
                      '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

                      Previous Vehicles:
                      '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
                      '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
                      '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
                      '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
                      '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
                      '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
                      '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
                      '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
                      '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

                      Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
                      Adding images and/or documents to your posts

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Formation of Australian Biofuel Users

                        This has me intrested David.

                        Some of the questions you rasie are Valid.

                        The problem is for example You as a homebrewer GIVE 100L of BioDiesel to your firend. He use's it till his car stops! Goes to his mech and gets told the fuel you put in was BAD he says my friend david gave it to me, said Biodiesel was good for me and said it works without a problem. Mech says well I am sorry that was what caused your problem that biodiesel is bad and should NEVER be used.

                        Well rite then and there you have a firend who is going to shell out what $100+ for a filter change and tank drain and a friend that now has a bad feeling about the use of biodiesel.

                        On the other side of the coin you have the same issue with dodgy stations supplying fuel and it could cause the same result.

                        I see the ABU as being an advicate for the promotion and use of BioFuels.

                        This means that we neither support or object to homebrewers and the same applies for commercial producers.

                        The problem at the moment as I see is that YOU david will be a homebrewer, WHY because you want to, because you can, becuase you need to. That is not likely to change. What support can we offer to you in that sense who really knows other than I spose the forums like this were you can share your knowladge and gain information etc.

                        Someone else is always going to be a consumer of either your biodiesel or a producers. That will always be, they don't have the time, couldn't be bother making it but want to support green fuels.

                        Now the problem I see it as is this. You as a homebrewer. What issues do you have? You know how the stuff is made, you know were to get your bits from etc. So to me you look sweet.

                        As a commercial producer same deal what issues do they have? Umm they know were to get their oil from, they know how to make it and they know they can sell what they make + more. So what issues do they have?

                        Now if you both took what you produced and umm used it as a weed killer you wouldn't have a problem or the many of other really dumb ideas anyone can come up with.

                        If EITHER of you pumps it into a transport fuel then you are required to pay a TAX. Both have to pay the tax and some claim it back and this goes for both on both sides of the street.

                        Whos the MUG that in the end gets to cough up for the TAX? The user, the person who drives the car and pumps the fuel.

                        But your an underground producer for example so you don't pay tax. Well great cool go for it thats your thing but don't you think it would be better for you NOT to have to pay tax. Wouldn't you rather be able to MAKE as much fuel as you can and not have to keep looking over your sholder and wonder if the tax man one day will get you?

                        As a home producer once you pump it into your car you become a user of fuel. Wouldn't you like to be able to use it without fear, wouldn't you like to be able to for example source cheaper testing facilities so you could see if your fuel is of a good standard? Wouldn't want to know if your ever caught short someday that you could buy fuel from XYZ and know that it is of a useable standard?

                        The point I am tring to get at is what the ABU is focusing on mainly is the final stage of the cycle for BioFuels, THE USE and THE USER. They are the ones getting the raw end of the deal from everyone at this point cause no one is serving their intrests. People are buying dodgy fuel without being informed. WHO is fighting these stations to get them to clean up their act? not the other Organisations! They only care abou a sale and a quick one at that.

                        Who is fighting the TAX man for Excise free BioFuels? at last count neither of them is in a real urgent need. They see the price of petro fuels rising so it is all just to hard.

                        Who is fighting the car companies to provide detailed information about the use of biofuels in their cars? Neither of the other 2 as they are making a sale WHO cares a sale is a sale as long as the fuel sells and their commercial producers make money to pay them fees etc.

                        Who is providing information to the USER be it a homebrewer or a commercial purchaser so they can go to their Mech and not look like a total fringe dweler. No one. Neither of the others care they are selling their product!

                        So the list goes on and ON and ON of all the situations were a homebrewer and a commercial purchase user are EXACTLY the same issues. They need to be struggled for and won. But this can only happen with a voice.

                        Now back to why we don't want to get up close and personal with homebrewers. Well ABU doesn't want to be seen to be taking sides in a battle that is already a long way behind the times. As far as I can tell everytime the TAX issues come up the other orgs want to be able to get a free run on 0 excise but say that for XYZ reason everyone else should be charged excise to ensure compliance etc etc etc, that is all garbage. If the ABU was to say to GOV, Industry, Car makers, Stations etc etc etc that we think biofuels should be excise free they would all claim bias and vested intrest but for the wrong reason. They would claim that we would want to undermine them(biofuel industry) and etc etc So were sitting down in front of Gov. BAA & RFA over there for Industry. ABProduers over here! We get into a back and forth about issues with them the GOV will throw their hands up in the air and say all to hard lets just leave it the way it is!

                        If on the other hand we go in front of gov and agree with them for Tax reform but for ALLL users ( they are the ones paying the tax, doesn't matter were the fuel comes from) then we would have a better chance of gaining ground. They would say that we want it for brewers. ABU would say NOPE we don't speak for them we speak for the USER, the person like you or me that PUMPS the stuff in their car for what ever reason.

                        If in the end it comes down to people who don't want to support the ABU and it's objectives to promote the use of biofuels then that is totally up to them, but the focus group that worked to get this far all agreed that if we had to take a stand somewere in the forest it had to be at the end were all the big issues seemed to be and the issues that would effect the MOST people not just a few.

                        That is long and I hope people understand that we are not tring to include or exclude one side or the other we are tring to find the BIGGEST side being the USER's of biofuels and support them.
                        Dave

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Formation of Australian Biofuel Users

                          Many of the members of this forum are recent arrivals on the biodiesel scene. As Tony mentioned there was a BEER campaign several years ago. At that time there were far less people involved in making biodiesel and far less exposure in the media. As far as the Government was concerned, it was a non-issue, who cares?

                          That is not the situation now. Fuel prices are up, Peak Oil has hit the mainstream news, there has been a Senate inquiry, backyard biodiesel seems to get a run in the media every few months. People are now more interested in alternative energy issues.

                          I would expect that if a BEER group now approached the hallowed halls of Canberra they would get an audience.

                          The ABU could have many different working groups, it could have a group dedicated to promoting biodiesel in the rural sector, it might also have a working group for another BEER campaign. Those interested in participating in such a group could join it. The previous BEER campaign was not a structured group as such, it was a bunch of concerned individuals putting in their individual efforts. Perhaps a new campaign might have a lot more structure and a lot more muscle.

                          The evolution of the ABU will be largely dependent upon the interests and motivations of the individuals that contribute their time and effort. If there is no interest for another BEER campaign, then there won't be one. On the other hand if there is the interest, then an ABU working group could help focus the efforts.

                          The organisation will be what people make it.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Formation of Australian Biofuel Users

                            Originally posted by Tony From West Oz View Post
                            It may be that ABU members would be prepared to support an excise reform campaign, where the ABU itself did not participate in that campaign.
                            Tony,
                            You have hit the nail on the head with one of my concerns. As a home brewer, I would want the support of an organisation I would no doubt pay dues to rather than have them tell Me " We don't want to get involved because it may upset someone in the industry but you can go it alone if you want". What would be the good of an organisation that took a stand like that? I would be no better off belonging to an organisation that proposed to represent bio fuel users than not if that were to be the policy.



                            David,

                            Thanks you for your very informative reply. Much of what you say makes sense and gives me a much better idea of how objectives of the ABU would work if this is in fact what they would strive to achieve. I can see there would be a lot of worthwhile things to be gained that would help all users.

                            One Point I would like direct clarification on instead of having to read between the lines, is the ABU's position on issues which would affect home brewers only such as the restriction or incresed complication of obtaining methanol.
                            If such proposals were to be introduced which would affect the home brewer who would also be a bio user obviously and therefore fall under the umbrella of who the ABU is saying they would represent the interests of, Would the ABU go to bat and oppose any such changes to the present position and try to maintain the free aqusition of Methanol for brewers or would they avoid the issue to prevent opposing the commercial interests and let the brewers fight the cause themselves?

                            A simple " Yes, the ABU would do all it could to prevent any changes to the current situation of methanol availability for home brewers" Or a " No, This is not within the mandate of the ABU and it would be up to brewers to fight it themselves" would be very helpful for a non politiacal person like myself to understand.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Formation of Australian Biofuel Users

                              (What's all this BEER stuff we're talking about? Here is a page I posted up on sydneybiodiesel some time ago.)

                              As I said before: I'd be quite happy to provide support to anyone who wants to run with the BEER cause (that’s why putting up a page on sydneybiodiesel.com was one of the first things I did). I just don't feel that is my battle. That is just my personal take and I think that the ABU would feel the same.

                              Now, from a biodiesel user's perspective, I'd be really happy if the home brewer did not have the silly tax laws to worry about. I fully agree with BEER, both on principle and also because it would make my fuel cheaper.

                              What about everyone else’s perspectives? (I’m not really qualified to answer this myself, but I’ll put it how I think they see it, as it may help to explain ABU):
                              1. The home brewer does not (usually) want to on-sell the fuel they make. They are not in it for the money. They do not like being underground and they fear the possibility of industry leaning on Government (more) to make them outlaws. There is fear of industry groups lobbying against the homebrew scene and trying to introduce certification programs which would exclude them.
                              2. From a commercial producer's perspective, they might see BEER as a threat, as possibly the current laws help to keep the scene underground. The commercial producers are not afraid of home brewers selling the fuel to their markets, that would be absurd. They are afraid of them making biodiesel that is not up to standard and ruining the reputation of the fuel and the money they have invested in it.
                              3. From a vehicle manufacturer's perspective, they still don't trust the Australian commercial producer to make biodiesel to a high enough standard to warrant it running in their engines (maybe there are other reasons for this too, but we won't go there now). When someone says “can I use biodiesel in this?” they first think that they may brew it themselves, then seek warranty support when the fuel breaks something.
                              As users, we do not want to get too involved with pushing anyone's barrow for them. We are at the end of the chain. (Possibly the only group that could unite all interests and maybe also the largest?) We just want to make sure that the fuel we use and promote is as good as it can be. We need to think more about how we relate to each of the above interests as users. We have yet to come up with working groups or ideas for programs we could run. As a large amount of users are also home producers, we do not want to be seen as just pushing this barrow. We need to be on good terms with everyone else too. The only way I can see that we can be less marginalised and more effective is to be very clear that we are just the consumer. This does not mean that we do not understand the other groups, or want to find ways to support their interests to ensure that our own aims are furthered (the promotion of the use of biofuels).

                              So, how might we go about doing this?
                              1. For the home brewer. We might make a statement to the effect that we support the fact that many people will home brew (either for lack of good commercial availability, or because they want to). We want to ensure that home brewers are not afraid to tell people that they use biodiesel. We want to assist them to ensure that the fuel that they make and more importantly that we use is of the highest quality. We might try and find ways to assist with cheap lab tests, or perhaps workshops..? More thought for another day.
                              2. For the commercial producer. I see that we might want to find ways of informing our users of the feedstocks used in production. For example, we may want to ensure that the fuel we buy does not come from Malaysian palm plantations that have been put up at the expense of rainforest. We’d want to know that whatever feedstock was used was sustainable. We’d also want to know that the fuel was up to standard (just as for the home producer). Similar to the home producer, we’d want to not pay excise on the fuel and would be in support of any moves by the industry to seek better ways to avoid this. There might also be a testing program available so that the ABU could fund random samples from commercial operators to be lab tested to ensure peace of mind for our users. We would want to ensure that our users knew of the best places to buy quality fuel and the places to avoid. The places to avoid (you all know who I’m talking about) would be offered help to work with us to ensure that they provided the quality the education and the backup our users required. We would also have to work with industry both directly and through groups like whatever comes from the amalgamation of the BAA and the RFA.
                              3. Vehicle manufacturers need to know that there are people who want to use better fuels in the cars they make. We would seek to educate them and possibly work with them to ensure ways that our users could use quality fuels and still get support from the manufacturer. This would apply whether the user was a fleet or an individual. This last point may be worthwhile to note, as individual users could gain some strength in numbers similar to a fleet.
                              Those are just ideas off the top of my own head. We have yet to formally incorporate, find a place to base ourselves and announce ourselves to the world. Likewise, we have yet to actually work out what will be offered to members, what membership fees might be charged in return and who will do what internally.

                              I hope that gives you all an idea at least of why we wanted to be USERS, not home brewers. To re-iterate, home brewers are welcome too, but we do not represent you as a producer, just as a USER. If a group wants to form to fight excise and look after the interests of the home brewer, we will offer our support where we can (as Terry said, an ABU working group could help focus these efforts).


                              David (not Jacka), I've just read your post after I was typing mine. As for a simple answer - I would say that the ABU would support any issue affecting home brewers, as long as it ensured the users of quality fuel. They would not specifically go for issues only affecting home brewers on their own as they don't specifically represent them, but would support and assist them as per Terry's comment above).
                              These are good points for you to bring up, as we all need to be sure that we have a united direction within the ABU and we need people like you to help us properly consider issues before we speak on them.
                              Robert
                              Administrator
                              Last edited by Robert; 23 October 2006, 11:33 AM.
                              Robert.
                              Site Admin.

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