PDA

View Full Version : 1990 HiAce/Hilux fuel pumps



Craig Laurendet
10th December 2006, 04:43 PM
A couple of months ago I converted my HiAce van to run on WVO, in prep for a big road trip at xmas.
After 1500km’s running on WVO, my fuel pump started to leak (as expected) so I had it rebuilt with the proper nylon seals.

However the mechanic said, in addition to the predictable degradation of the rubber seals… There was a glue like build up clogging the pump. (And he would not give a warranty if I kept using oil)
Also I had 'Stalictite' like deposits hanging of my injectors.

Has anyone experienced this problem with residue build up in the pump?
Do you think a drop in temp attributes to the ‘Glue’

I filter my oil through a pair of pants and then through a 1 micron filter.
I heat it to 70 degrees. The heater is approximately 1m away from the pump, although the hoses are fully insulated.
I have a 1990 2.8L engine with a rotary pump…Bosch I think.

Any sugestions would be welcome.

tbird650
10th December 2006, 06:27 PM
Are you cold filtering? I'm wondering if the "glue" is fat residue. Some animal fats are known to be high melt point. I had this problem with one oil lot. It was sticky, sticky, sticky!! Inevitably most if not all of our vege will have some in it.
I think you will have to run a blend as I haven't been able to totally remedy the injector coking problem either. Next I am trialing 70%vege/ 30% diesel.

David
10th December 2006, 06:51 PM
I don't know what your mechanic's definition of " glue" looks like but this is what the pickup in the tank on my car looked like before any veg even got near it.

http://www.daretobedifferent.com.au/helga/pickup.jpg

Even though the tank was removed from the car there has still been a lot of stuff coming out of the fuel lines and maybe even the pump since I have been running bio and a veggie/unleaded blend. This is just the crap that was already there so it may be a very worthwhile thing for you to pull the tank and clean it out to start with.

It is good practice to settle your oil and then only use the stuff that comes to the top which is the most liquid oil and best suited for running in your engine. I pump the clear oil from the top of the 20L tins I get till I hit any fats into 60L drums to settle again and rotate the order of the drums I draw from so they all get at least a month to re settle.

What are you starting your engine on? If you are starting it from cold on WVO before the engine and the WVO has had a chance to warm up, this could be the cause of the deposits on your injectors. If you are going to run a single tank system only, running a blend is your best option to prevent this. On the other hand, If your pump wasn't working properly before the rebuild, it could have been producing a poor spray pattern into the cylinder which may also account for the danglies.

If you are going to blend, I suggest you have a read of the recent thread on this here and look it up on the info pop site where there is a lot of other info as well.

Craig Laurendet
10th December 2006, 09:02 PM
I am cold filtering my WVO, as I thought this would get more fat out of it, In any case I only use the top oil out of a can that has been left to settle.
Maybe I should filter it twice?
Is there any test you can do after filtering, to see if there is any fat left in the oil?

I start on Diesel untill the engine is warm and flush the system a couple of minutes before shutting down.

Pretty graphic pic... Might give my diesel tank a clean....

Tony From West Oz
11th December 2006, 12:11 AM
I doubt that the IP "glue" is related to high Melting Point oil.
Is your oil dry? Have you tested for water?

I feel that this may be a result of water contributing to polymerisation of the oil. A proportion of the polymerised oil, attached itself to surfaces in the IP, resulting in the "glue". This may have also contributed to the coking of the injector tip.

Do you have samples of the "Glue" which could be sent for chemical analysis?
This would provide a definitive answer to your dilema.

Tony

Tony From West Oz
11th December 2006, 12:12 AM
I doubt that the IP "glue" is related to high Melting Point oil.
Is your oil dry? Have you tested for water?

I feel that this may be a result of water contributing to polymerisation of the oil. If some of the polymerised oil, attached itself to surfaces in the IP, this may result in the "glue". It may have also contributed to the coking of the injector tip.

Do you have samples of the "Glue" which could be sent for chemical analysis?
This would provide a definitive answer to your dilema.

Tony

Craig Laurendet
11th December 2006, 10:54 PM
unfortunately I don't have any samples of the reidue.
I guess I will just drive around a bit and then have a look.

I only do a spot test for water. So it is very possible water is the problem.

Craig Laurendet
13th December 2006, 08:05 PM
I bought a heat gauge today & had a bit of fun driving around with it at different spots.
I found that although my inline heater (Thermo-Veg or something), heats up to a wopping 90 deg C, it only heats the oil to about 50! And by the time it gets to the IP its down to about 40-45.
Funnily enough it heats back up to 55 befor going into the injectors.
So I guess some additional heating is DEFFINATLY required.

tbird650
13th December 2006, 08:52 PM
I got best results by running a looped return and having the GP heater at that point of loop. That's in the engine bay, just where the original filter used to be.....all with foam insulation. It has a 100C button thermostat from Jaycar.
The injector line heaters are good for approx 20C extra heat and draw 2amps per cylinder via a relay.

Craig Laurendet
29th December 2006, 04:14 PM
I've now re-routed my coolent through my veggie tank. In conjuction With my in-line heater the tempurature going into the IP is 70 deg C (158 F).

I have found that after 1 hour of driving on vegtable oil my car experiences a stalling problem.
The situation happens when I have been travelling at pretty constant rate of 3000rpm & then slow down fast (So the engine is only doing 1000rpm). When this happens my engine tends to stall or feel out of time.
If I switch back to deisel the problem stops.
I have a new oil filter & there are no blockages in the lines

Dose anyone have any suggestions as to why I only experience this problem on veggie oil & not diesel?

David
29th December 2006, 06:32 PM
Does your Veggie tank have an air vent?
My guess would be that if there is no hole or the vent is blocked,my guess would be that the IP is able to pull the liquid and create a vacum at speed but once the revs and draw of the pump drops, the vacum is too great for the engine to get enough fuel to get back up to speed and it then stalls.

Other possibility could be that the pickup in your tank is getting blocked with crap in the tank. At high speed the debris is drawn up and blocks the screen. Once you go to diesel the draw that sticks the rubbish to the screen stops and the rubbish drops back into the tank till you start pulling fuel from that line again.

Just a couple of suggestions that you may like to check out.

tbird650
31st December 2006, 11:07 AM
Sounds like fuel starvation......!!:( See my other posts for details and see all the steps I went thru while wrestling with this problem. It seems that our Toyotas are a very different kinda beast to that of the Mercedes. Good luck.

Captain Echidna
31st December 2006, 12:06 PM
Could it be air leaking into the system? I am finding on my toyota leaks leak air in, rather than oil out as on the mercedes. I believe some air will go through the injectors ok, but not a lot, and it may vary with speed.

tbird650
1st January 2007, 08:01 AM
Could it be air leaking into the system?


Most likely yes. Air leaks are directly relative to the degree of "restriction" in the fuel lines, filter and tank system.
A clear portion of the return line to the diesel tank is an excellent way of determining the amount of air that becomes trapped while the fuel lines are in loop mode.

Switch from loop mode to tank return mode..... immediately observe if there's a stream of bubbles.

Concentrate on reducing fuel restriction. Trying to seal it more and more is sort of like chasing ones' tail.

There are some options:
1/ Reduce viscocity of the fuel.
2/ Increase capacity of any "on demand" filtration.
3/ Increase the size of fuel lines.
4/ Reduce the amount of fat in the fuel.
5/ Move the point of filtration to "tank entry" rather than "tank exit"

There's pros and cons to each of the above solutions. Combine 2 or 3 ideas to get a result?..... and do what works for you.

Happy vege cruising and have a great 007 new year!

Tony From West Oz
2nd January 2007, 12:57 AM
Most likely yes. Air leaks are directly relative to the degree of "restriction" in the fuel lines, filter and tank system.
A clear portion of the return line to the diesel tank is an excellent way of determining the amount of air that becomes trapped while the fuel lines are in loop mode.

Switch from loop mode to tank return mode..... immediately observe if there's a stream of bubbles.

Concentrate on reducing fuel restriction. Trying to seal it more and more is sort of like chasing ones' tail.

There are some options:
1/ Reduce viscocity of the fuel.
2/ Increase capacity of any "on demand" filtration.
3/ Increase the size of fuel lines.
4/ Reduce the amount of fat in the fuel.
5/ Move the point of filtration to "tank entry" rather than "tank exit"
I have an issue with this option. The fuel should be filtered before adding to the tank. This filtration should be finer than the vehicle main fuel filter. The vehicle main fuel filter should be to stop contaminants (created in or added to the tank, from reaching the IP.

There's pros and cons to each of the above solutions. Combine 2 or 3 ideas to get a result?..... and do what works for you.

Happy vege cruising and have a great 007 new year!

tbird650
2nd January 2007, 11:16 AM
Tony

Thanks for the comments re my solution/s. When I first posted the #5 solution some weeks back, it seemed there was very little interest in the concept..... or perhaps it wasn't fully understood?




I have an issue with this option. The fuel should be filtered before adding to the tank.


The fuel IS filtered as it's added to the tank...... And at 1 micron!


This filtration should be finer than the vehicle main fuel filter.

This filtration is finer than any onboard diesel vehicle's filter. My understanding is diesel filters are typically 5 or 10 micron.



The vehicle main fuel filter should be to stop contaminants (created in or added to the tank, from reaching the IP.

Is goes without saying that no contaminant should reach the IP. I think confusion has arisen here.
I use a fresh, transparent, clean, plastic fuel tank for the vege. It can't rust or react with water/moisture. The only way for foreign matter can get in is via the 1 micron filter!

I never considered using the vehicles existing tank with all the years of crud it may have.

All I have done is to move the point of filtration!....and ensuring that the sealed fuel tank cannot become contaminated.

I have to say, this decision, to go against mainstream orthodox thinking took some courage. I wrestled for months and months with on board/on demand filtration............. till finally one day I "spat the dummy" .......... and thought......... there must be a better way, there must be!!

gonzalo
2nd January 2007, 11:19 AM
I have EXACTLY this problem. Air leak only in veggy mode (no loop on return line) but not in Diesel mode. Problem seems worse once the engine is hot. It is not the filter, it is not the HE, it is not the 3 way valve, it is not the main tank.......3 weeks now without success. Dont´know what else I can check, so I will probably end up fitting a lift pump at the back to push the oil rather than having the IP sucking it all the way.

Cheers
gonzalo

tbird650
3rd January 2007, 04:10 PM
gonzalo

Please supply more information on your set up so forum readers can comment on your problem.

Points to include are:

Filter type, size, make/model. (is it used for both fuels?)
Fuel line size and material type.
Which tank is the vege in?...original or additional tank?
Is filter & fuel lines heated?
What's your current, average ambient air temperature?
What's the injector pump type....rotary with vane lift pump?
Any 12v vege heater/s?
What vege type are you using? Always been the same?

Answer as many as you can.

Hoping we can help.

P.S. I agree with Captain Echidna in that it sounds like a blockage or restriction. This would cause high vacuum, which in turn causes air leaks.

gonzalo
3rd January 2007, 09:05 PM
Hello Tbird650,

Here is some info:

The car is a Peugeot 205 from 1996. I have installed an additional tank in the boot. This one is for diesel only. The main tank stores 100% waste veggy oil. This oil has been filtered at home with thick jeans, but I am not sure what kind of rating these would have. It takes no less than 24h to filter 30 litres, so I assume the filtering is fine. The oil has been settling for 2 weeks before filtering.

The 2 fuel lines meet at the "entry solenoid valve". Before this the diesel fuel has been filtered by the stock filter. The oil has only been prefiltered by the main tank filter, which must be around 200 micron or so. The oil has also gone through the manual primer (just a rubber ball with an antireturn valve).

After the valve either fuel goes through the heat exchanger, a piece of cooper pipe installed in the manifold going from the cylinder head to the radiator. Inside there is another cooper pipe with a spiral shape. I home made this, so I was suspicious of it, but I isolated it and it does not leak.
The spiral is of a single piece. I mean, the bits sticking out of the main tube belong to the same piece of pipe.

After the HE there is another filter (Bosch 100 micron) and after this we arrive to the IP.

For the return I have installed another solenoid valve to select the tank I want the fuel to return to. I have no loop for any of the circuits.

The two valves are operated independently from the cabin. There is a significant amount of fuel between the valves, so simultaneous switching would send a lot of fuel to the wrong tank.

When in veggy mode, I can see small bubbles arriving to the Bosch filter. If I switch from veggy to diesel, the bubbles disappear.

If I connect the veggy line (including the primer) directly to the filter, no bubbles. Add to this the HE and no bubbles. Add to this the solenoid and I get bubbles.

Easy? Not so easy, because the diesel fuel also uses this valve and I get no bubbles. A matter of excessive vacum with veggie, as Captain suggested? Probably. Spent last night dismantling the valve and turning every single connection air tight, paranoid style, this is.

I am about to install it back into the car and see what happens.


The rest of the system has been checked twice or three times. The prefilter in the main tank is new, all fuel lines are new (specific for fuel, up to 2 bar it says on one side, 6mm), the diesel filter is new too just in case and all connections are secured with quality clamps (the ones that don´t puncture the lines).
The diesel filter (stock) is heated at the base. The Bosch filter is heated by the fuel itself, which must be flowing at around 80 or 90 degrees.
Current ambiente temp is 15 degrees C.
My pump is rotary Bosch with integrated lift pump.
No electrical heating.
The veggy I am using has always been the same. Is is WVO I collent from a recycling center. I collect it from a 1000 litre container, so it is very unlikely that its composition would vary much from one month to another.

I will let you know how I go. Any ideas will be welcome.

Thanks for your comments
gonzalo



gonzalo

Please supply more information on your set up so forum readers can comment on your problem.

Points to include are:

Filter type, size, make/model. (is it used for both fuels?)
Fuel line size and material type.
Which tank is the vege in?...original or additional tank?
Is filter & fuel lines heated?
What's your current, average ambient air temperature?
What's the injector pump type....rotary with vane lift pump?
Any 12v vege heater/s?
What vege type are you using? Always been the same?

Answer as many as you can.

Hoping we can help.

P.S. I agree with Captain Echidna in that it sounds like a blockage or restriction. This would cause high vacuum, which in turn causes air leaks.

Tony From West Oz
4th January 2007, 12:51 AM
Hello Tbird650,

Here is some info:

The car is a Peugeot 205 from 1996. I have installed an additional tank in the boot. This one is for diesel only. The main tank stores 100% waste veggy oil. This oil has been filtered at home with thick jeans, but I am not sure what kind of rating these would have. It takes no less than 24h to filter 30 litres, so I assume the filtering is fine. The oil has been settling for 2 weeks before filtering.

The 2 fuel lines meet at the "entry solenoid valve". Before this the diesel fuel has been filtered by the stock filter. The oil has only been prefiltered by the main tank filter, which must be around 200 micron or so. The oil has also gone through the manual primer (just a rubber ball with an antireturn valve).

After the valve either fuel goes through the heat exchanger, a piece of cooper pipe installed in the manifold going from the cylinder head to the radiator. Does this HE get hot before the top radiator hose gets hot? If not, then use the heater coolant to source the coolant for your HE.
Inside there is another cooper pipe with a spiral shape. I home made this, so I was suspicious of it, but I isolated it and it does not leak.
The spiral is of a single piece. I mean, the bits sticking out of the main tube belong to the same piece of pipe.

After the HE there is another filter (Bosch 100 micron) and after this we arrive to the IP.

For the return I have installed another solenoid valve to select the tank I want the fuel to return to. I have no loop for any of the circuits.

The two valves are operated independently from the cabin. There is a significant amount of fuel between the valves, so simultaneous switching would send a lot of fuel to the wrong tank.

When in veggy mode, I can see small bubbles arriving to the Bosch filter. If I switch from veggy to diesel, the bubbles disappear.

If I connect the veggy line (including the primer) directly to the filter, no bubbles. Add to this the HE and no bubbles. Add to this the solenoid and I get bubbles.

Easy? Not so easy, because the diesel fuel also uses this valve and I get no bubbles. A matter of excessive vacum with veggie, as Captain suggested? Probably. Spent last night dismantling the valve and turning every single connection air tight, paranoid style, this is.

I am about to install it back into the car and see what happens.

Try swapping the fuel lines to the valve so that the veggie uses the diesel ports - re-label the switch so there is no confusion. see if the veggie still gets bubbles.

The rest of the system has been checked twice or three times. The prefilter in the main tank is new, all fuel lines are new (specific for fuel, up to 2 bar it says on one side, 6mm), the diesel filter is new too just in case and all connections are secured with quality clamps (the ones that don´t puncture the lines).
The diesel filter (stock) is heated at the base. The Bosch filter is heated by the fuel itself, which must be flowing at around 80 or 90 degrees.Please install a temperature probe to confirm these temperatures during the driving conditions giving the symptoms.

Current ambiente temp is 15 degrees C.
My pump is rotary Bosch with integrated lift pump.
No electrical heating.
The veggy I am using has always been the same. Is is WVO I collent from a recycling center. I collect it from a 1000 litre container, so it is very unlikely that its composition would vary much from one month to another.
So anyone could put any oil into the drum? You take from the drum, but you do not know what goes into the drum. Have you tested for water in the oil?

I will let you know how I go. Any ideas will be welcome.

Thanks for your comments
gonzalo






I support the installation of a fuel vacuum gauge, located at the IP inlet and routed to the dash. This will assist you in diagnosing faults such as this one.

Tony

gonzalo
4th January 2007, 02:53 AM
Thanks for the tips, Tony. I will try them.

For the time being I have re-installed the solenoid valve after sealing all the connections with teflon and nural 27. After a long run I have noticed that the car is running fine now. However, after opening the bonet I saw that there are still a few tiny bubbles going through the Bosch filter. Not sure where they are coming from, but since the car is running fine now, I will pretend I have not seen them.
If I keep the engine idling for a minute or two the bubbles disappear totally.

Following your suggestion, next modification will be to relocate the HE so that it receives water for the heating, which has no thermostat.
At the moment I have to wait until the thermostat opens (at 83 degrees), before I can switch to veggy.

Cheers
gonzalo

gonzalo
6th January 2007, 09:12 AM
Hello again,

Just a brief update.

When I thought the problem had been fixed by sealing the solenoid valve with Nural 27, the fuel starvation came back after a long run (50km more or less). I swapped the veggy and diesel lines at the valve, as Tony suggested, also adding a bit of transparent tube in the diesel line. Started the car and it has been working excellent since then. The interesting bit is that as soon as I switched to diesel, small bubbles appeared in the transparent line before the valve. This means that the leak has always been in the diesel line, not in the veggy line as I thought. What made me believe this was the fact that the car was running ok in diesel mode, but obviously I was not driving far enough on diesel to starve the engine.
This also means that air bubbles can get through the valve even if the port is "closed".

I still need to find and fix the leak, but now I know what´s going on and feel much happier.

Thanks a lot for your help
gonzalo

Captain Echidna
6th January 2007, 10:00 AM
, but now I know what´s going on and feel much happier.


Nice to know things are getting better. After having converted 2 cars before, things get better from where you are, and when it goes properly you will be estatic. I know this because I am doing the third car, and things arent quite looking up yet (although the car is back running on diesel, so its a positive I guess)

gonzalo
7th January 2007, 03:25 AM
I wish you finish that third conversion successfully, Chris.



Nice to know things are getting better. After having converted 2 cars before, things get better from where you are, and when it goes properly you will be estatic. I know this because I am doing the third car, and things arent quite looking up yet (although the car is back running on diesel, so its a positive I guess)