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  • B5 blend and the small commercial producer

    On December 21 ABG put out a press release about the mothballing of the Berkley Vale plant.

    http://www.abgbiodiesel.com/_data/AB...ber%202006.pdf

    Note that the press release indicates that some 69% of their sales is used in B20 applications.

    Now consider that the Government is likely to dictate a maximum of 5% biodiesel in petrol diesel after the new review.

    Standardising Diesel/Biodiesel Blends - Discussion paper

    This will likely kill off the ABG and other small commercial producers. Big oil wins again. They set the biodiesel standards, they dictate the legislation regarding grants and subsidies (and recieved the biggest grants for putting in new biodiesel plants) - alternative energy in this country is a joke.
    Terry Syd
    Senior Member
    Last edited by Terry Syd; 30 December 2006, 01:44 AM.

  • #2
    Re: B5 blend and the small commercial producer

    It seems to me after looking through the top link that the firm suffered because of the drought and the change in government policy. You can't do much about the weather (other than use biofuels to stabilise carbon dioxide levels) or the government (other than hire lots of good (expensive) lobbyists .

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: B5 blend and the small commercial producer

      Availability of feedstocks was always going to be the biggest problem facing the commercial biodiesel industry. I recall trips to SE Asia to try and obtain access to palm oil by a couple of companies. Once those asian countries started producing biodiesel themselves, there wasn't much left over to ship to Austraia. Malaysia has now stopped issuing permits for biodiesel companies as they are concerned that there won't be enough palm oil for food consumption.

      To some extent putting all the emphasis into biodiesel production technology was placing the cart before the horse. Now that technology may remain mothballed, if not scrapped.

      Your comments about expensive lobbyists is on point. The big oil companies have tremendous power in Canberra.

      Liquid fuel is a unique power source. It is what runs our transportation, mining and agriculture industries. As we slide down the backside of Hubert's curve, the government should be doing whatever it can to ensure that every last drop of liquid fuel that can be produced in this country will be produced. Unfortunately, that kind of foresight is sadly lacking in Canberra.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: B5 blend and the small commercial producer

        It occurs to me that there is the potential of using some of the big oil’s lobbying to sell biofuels to politicians, and possibly to big oil itself. Is that completely mad?
        Ok tell me about using a long spoon and insulated gloves when you're supping with the Devil.
        One thing that big oil, engine makers and the great Australian driving public would want is consistancy from biodiesel. I guess that's what the consultation is about among other things...
        I've made a short post about this conversation on my blog: the Big Biofuels Blog (http://www.icis.com/blogs/biofuels)

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: B5 blend and the small commercial producer

          Interesting to note that in the summary to the discussion paper the governement is seeking to

          ...allow for optimum vehicle and environmental performance
          1) This government and any new government needs to recognise that introducing LSD diesel was a mistake and that added lubricity is essential to allow for optimum vehicle performance. 5% BD blend may provide some lubricity but higher % blend would be far better.

          2) This government and any new government needs to recognise that BD reduces green house emmissions. The higher the blend the higher the green house emmission savings.

          As for the discussion - what discussion. It's already a done deal. Big Oil want 5% they get 5% and you and I talking about it won't change that. BIG OIL has taken out the big stick, or more probably, closed the big cheque book.

          BIG OIL recognize that biofuels are the fuel of the future but they are not going to lose 20% of their income by allowing a 20% blend.

          And the w***er polies are not going to lose 20% of their BIG OIL slush fund, not without replacing it - the 20% that is.

          But hey, I wonder if these same policies are economically savy enough to know that if they reduce this countries reliance on dinodiesel, they will reduce their foreign debt as well.

          I just wonder if the savings on foreign debt would replace that "lost" 20%.

          Slippery
          Small steps taken one at at a time.
          Slippery
          Small steps taken one at a time.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: B5 blend and the small commercial producer

            Originally posted by Slippery View Post
            And the w***er polies are not going to lose 20% of their BIG OIL slush fund, not without replacing it - the 20% that is.

            But hey, I wonder if these same policies are economically savy enough to know that if they reduce this countries reliance on dinodiesel, they will reduce their foreign debt as well.

            I just wonder if the savings on foreign debt would replace that "lost" 20%.
            A 20% "gain" would be for the country, a 20% cut in big oil slush fund would be a cut the relevant party's income. So the pollie would need to choose between the country or their parties interest. Do I need to even wonder which way they would go?
            cheers<BR>Chris.<BR>1990 landcruiser 80, 1HD-T two tank, copper pipe HE+ 20 plate FPHE, toyota solenoids and filters. 1978 300D, elsbett one tank system.<BR>

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: B5 blend and the small commercial producer

              Originally posted by Terry Syd View Post
              On December 21 ABG put out a press release about the mothballing of the Berkley Vale plant.

              http://www.abgbiodiesel.com/_data/AB...ber%202006.pdf

              Note that the press release indicates that some 69% of their sales is used in B20 applications.

              Now consider that the Government is likely to dictate a maximum of 5% biodiesel in petrol diesel after the new review.

              Standardising Diesel/Biodiesel Blends - Discussion paper

              This will likely kill off the ABG and other small commercial producers. Big oil wins again. They set the biodiesel standards, they dictate the legislation regarding grants and subsidies (and recieved the biggest grants for putting in new biodiesel plants) - alternative energy in this country is a joke.
              So , what should we, as relatively knowledgeable people, who have an interest in biofuels do??
              Should we sit back and wait for the outcome?
              Should we prepare a submission to the enquiry?
              Should we support the recently formed ABU (Australian Biofuels Users association) and have them prepare a submission on our behalf, so that at least the voices of some of the populace is heard?

              I have heard that the closing date for submissions has been extended, so there is a possibility that our voice can still be heard.

              Tony
              Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

              Current Vehicles in stable:
              '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
              '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
              '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

              Previous Vehicles:
              '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
              '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
              '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
              '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
              '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
              '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
              '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
              '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
              '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

              Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
              Adding images and/or documents to your posts

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: B5 blend and the small commercial producer

                This could be a project that the ABU could try cutting it's teeth on.

                For what it is worth I still believe the Government will only listen to big oil but, hey, we have an election coming on, and if someone can open their eyes to the real benefits of a 20% blend, instead of 5%, the better it will be for those of us who do have the environment at heart.

                Slippery
                Small steps taken one at a time.
                Slippery
                Small steps taken one at a time.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: B5 blend and the small commercial producer

                  Review of Diesel - Biodiesel Fuel Blend Standards


                  Tony,
                  I missed your earlier thread on the above topic which I guess is one and the same. Noted that the OEM are pushing for the 5% as well.

                  This probably stems more from a lack of education than anything else.

                  We have seen dozens of threads were claims are abitrarily made that "damage " is the result of using BD. We know that is 99% not the case but more a bad batch and more often than not, a bad batch of dinojuice- mixed with who knows what.

                  So how do we go about educating the motor industry and getting them on side?

                  How do we bring the likes of VP under control and stop them from selling the stuff they evidently do sell? And they are probably not the only money grubbers who sell bad dino diesel mixed with good BD that now gives the BD a bad smell.

                  Maybe a starting point could be with the ABU starting a think tank meeting - maybe one in all centres around Australia. Lets get our heads together and get some real action going.

                  Slippery
                  Small steps taken one at a time
                  Slippery
                  Small steps taken one at a time.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: B5 blend and the small commercial producer

                    Originally posted by Slippery View Post

                    So how do we go about educating the motor industry and getting them on side?
                    I believe the only way you are going to do it is show them that there is a buck to be made out of it.

                    Car manufacturers are not interested in safety, the enviroment, emissions or anything else UNLESS, they can put a spin on it to sell more cars.
                    Governments are the same. Their Policies and absolute motivation is only to win votes.

                    It would seem to me that if you want to change the policies of the car manufacturers or government, the first thing you have to do is create a demand from the public whom are Car buyers or Voters.

                    When they see an opportunity to fill their agenda's and get a jump on the opposition, then they will embrace Bio fuels and support it. Until the demand is there, no way are they going to go out on a limb and put themselves at risk by introducing something that their Statistician haven't given them the numbers to show the publics support and approval.

                    I think going after the car and oil manufacturers along with the govt is putting the cart before the horse. I would suggest that the goal you are after would be far faster reached by educating the public and getting them on side en masse so they give those whom you want to change their polices the pressure and motivation to rethink what their position on these things is.

                    I believe the situation with VP is similar. While ever there is more money (or less expense) in selling crap fuel than good fuel, they will continue to take the more profitable option.

                    From what I have read, there are no standards for bio they have to comply with and therefore they are not risking any fines for breaking the law. If there is no penalty for doing the wrong thing, what motivation is there for them to do the right thing? Anyone that believes ethics plays a part in the decision making of big business these days is sadly kidding themselves.

                    The reality is these days that a lot of businesses knowingly and consiously break the law, particularly civil laws, because they know they have a bigger war chest than the people that could try to take legal action against them and therefore they can operate above and beyond the law.

                    In the case of VP, unless there are standards regarding the fuel quality brought in and those standards are ENFORCED, or, the public is educated on a widespread basis as to the poor quality of their fuel and the dangers of using it so their fuel sales decrease markedly, they are not going to have any reason to change what they are doing and selling.

                    Perhaps if someone could get one of those rabble rousing current affairs shows interested in the story and put the right spin on it for them to take it up, some pressure may be brought to bear on VP that way.
                    I'd suggest a lot of wether they would take the story up would depend on who owns VP and who they are friendly with at the top of the big money tree but it would seem the story has merit for the target audiences.

                    Big business and governments won't do or change a thing unless they see a benefit in it for THEM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: B5 blend and the small commercial producer

                      Hi All
                      Even though most of the points in this thread has being raised as well as debated right here some time back may be it is worthwhile to perhaps deal with some realities
                      As things stand there is no legal requirement to disclose what is included in petrodiesel so long it complies with the standard which is available by a simple search on the net
                      The standard refers to a variety of ASTM as well as EN standards which in themselves provide for the limits as well as the testing methods
                      These do involve rather elaborate testing equipment as well as difficult procedures which have to be done as per the method specified in the standard
                      The cost of these printed reports from Standards Australia or from the ASTM is quite high about $50 per standard some are more, at the 19 test's one has to perform it amounts to about $2000,00 before any equipment is purchased
                      The amount of equipment necessary so as to satisfy the requirements takes up an area of 300 square meters of laboratory space which needs all of the necessary supporting infrastructure
                      Things like exhaust system air conditioning water air and gas supply stainless steel benches or granite slab tops escape routes fire system safety equipment etc etc cost? about $450 K
                      One can then get the necessary equipment to install in there for the miserable sum of about $600 K so as to be able to start doing the test's with a staff of at least three chemist's if he wishes to get a result in three days
                      The above expenditure will not include a cetane testing rig which comes at a cost of $1.5 Million alone
                      It is only a couple of years ago we manage to get one here in Australia we only being burning diesel for 90 years
                      Once you are in the premises with all the gear required you then have to purchase all of the standard solutions certified from the vendors of the equipment which are in themselves expensive
                      It gets better, you then have to get the supplier of the gear to certify that the equipment he sold you perform as required initially and then it is something that is done at least yearly, another rather high expense
                      In short there is no way that an independent fuel testing lab will ever justify the cost of setting up so as to test fuels so the task is left to the oil/petro refiners suppliers
                      Judge jury and executioner all in one
                      There are very few Biodiesel manufacturers in the world who have testing facilities to do a full test as it is called by the standards and none in Australia
                      In a practical sense as it has been argued by the experts out there, some of these tests are adopted from the petro industry which are inapplicable to biodiesel
                      As well as the above, there are specifications in the standards that exclude the use of certain oils by the way the standard is applied
                      As an example the use of fish oil in any oil used to make biodiesel will not meet the EN standard, in another example high erucic oils are limited to 12%
                      Of course standards take a fair time to establish as well as to modify so as to make sense, no doubt the same will also apply to biodiesel in time to come
                      It is fair to say that some labs here in Australia have equipment that will do quite a number of the tests but not all of them and to the best of my knowledge a cetane no test can only be done in Brisbane as mentioned above
                      Another point if inapplicability of a test since any vegetable or animal fat will certainly be above the minimum cetane number required for petrodiesel
                      In stating the above it is to be noted that the standard still requires proof of compliance of the fuel to that standard therefore empirical proof
                      (the statement here excludes petroleum refiners some of which do have all of the gear necessary)
                      In summary to the best of my knowledge if one wishes to conduct a test on fuel quality regardless of wether it is an enforcing agency or an individual, they will have to send samples to at least three if not four locations so as to get a result in a few days
                      Of course by that time the bad fuel has already been disposed off to motorists with whatever resulting consequences
                      So the only thing remains then if the enforcing agency or the individual wishes to take legal action against the culprits
                      So much for testing fuel for compliance with the standard
                      In so far as the push for B5 or B20 my view is; given that petrodiesel since January 2006 is less than 50 ppm content of sulphur, or ULSD its lubricating qualities have diminished to the point where the life of the injector pump is lessened considerably
                      The addition of 2% of biodiesel suffices as a lubricant so as to assure lubricity of the IP for the life of the vehicle therefore the push
                      At the end of the day 2% of biodiesel added to dinodiesel will just about exhaust the oil as well as the tallow supplies in this country any way, and apart from "Nigerian" supplies there is very little available around the world at the present
                      Now the point has also to be made that if we turn all of the oil/fat available in this country into fuel we may replace 8% before we eat any of it, an impossibility, so at the very best we can do about 2% and I can assure any one reading this it will happen since it is pushed by the manufacturers
                      They will prove that it will make no difference if biodiesel remains excise free since they will get it indirectly as political gain
                      The point of this post is; as much as we like to think ideologically we cannot go away from the hard realities
                      We got to see the situation as it really is rather than thinking or hope it is somewhat different
                      Cheers
                      Chris
                      Never give up :)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: B5 blend and the small commercial producer

                        Hi there Dave,

                        There's a lot to agree with in your latest comment. Just getting the bit I disagree with slightly -- though its more about the flavour of the pudding than the pudding itself -- is the need to get the consumers interested before carmakers and engine manufacturers.

                        Its chickens and eggs, its not which came first, but how long did it take them to simultaneously evolve. We have to move on both fronts at the same time.

                        But in any case the whole thing falls flat if there's no consistent standard for the products, and firms that don't conform to that need to be named and shamed. A bit tough, but the great thing about gas is that its the same nozzel to nozzel, station to station and company to company. Is the same true for biofuels in within states in Aus?

                        That's the way to get big oil, with its distribution channels interested. They're big enough to take the politicos with them.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: B5 blend and the small commercial producer

                          Hi Simon,

                          I agree with what you are saying and should have said that I felt the main focus should be on the public initially. I think both ends of the equation certainly need to be addressed. My thoughts are that given that this will be quite some undertaking for any group here (not that there is anyone very big who are interested if any organised group at all) it would probably be better to concerntrate first on pulling in some advocates so they had a a stronger base and support from the public when they really started hitting Big Business and the government.
                          I think until the powers that be see the NEED from the public to address the situation, nothing is going to change.

                          With the demosntrated complacency and lip service the govt. is giving renewable fuels here, getting them and the car manufacturers to change their polices is going to take the leadership of a very experienced, dedicated and talented person indeed to rally enough support and bring enough pressure to bear.

                          As for the fuel producers and retailers here, I think they are limited to a number of small players scattered around all serving relatively local areas. As far as I am aware, the big national ( international) companies here are not offering anything in the way of bio fuels with the possible exception of some B5 they may not even be revealing the Bio component of anyway.

                          The most prominent player with bio blend in Sydney is a company called VP Fuels who have established a strong reputation as selling all sorts of suspect crap and single handedly doing more to damage the perception and reputation of bio fuels than anyone else could if they were paid.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: B5 blend and the small commercial producer

                            So we need to educate both the public and the manufacturers.

                            The public will follow what they read/see/hear in the press ( bunch of sheep).

                            The press will only get involved if they can smell controversy or graft.

                            So we need to develop controversy. Long term project I guess but a small start could be to get around all the dealers, and I mean all the dealers and get their opinions on bio fuels. Go in to the dealership posing as a buyer and ask their opinion. Record the answers and if you are not happy with the salesmans response ask for the managers/owners opinion. Be tough and question the opinions. Rock the boat.

                            When you take your cars in for a service, talk to the workshop foreman ( the workshop manager is often not mechanically inclined, sitting behind his desk and punching numbers), again question his "experience", ask for proof.

                            This can happen right around the country and it does not matter if the same dealer sees half a dozen "buyers". The more the better.

                            This will show the total lack of knowledge that manufacturers have on biofuels yet they insist on restricting the blend to 5%. I wonder if there is anything in the Trade Practices act covering lack of knowledge about a product you are marketing?

                            This can be turned into a story that one of the TV magazine programmes may buy into. Or we might be able to get an article into one of the motoring mags.
                            Slippery
                            Small steps taken one at a time.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: B5 blend and the small commercial producer

                              Why not try lobbying your MP suggesting that the governemnet at Federal, state and local level make their fleet purchases conditional on being able to run on biofuel blends?

                              Senator Barak Obama (a potential Presidential Candidate in the US) said recently...

                              let's make sure that US fleets, meaning cars that the US government buys, we buy thousands of cars for various agencies and departments, lets make sure that all those are fuel-efficient, that they're hybrids, that they can take ethanol, or other bio-fuels that would be a lot more efficient.
                              you can read the rest on the big biofuels blog (sorry guys, couldn't resist that )

                              But anyway, he suggested that ti would be a good idea for the US to do this and said the only reason that they're not doing it is a lack of political will.

                              Comment

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