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  • Small Scale Business On Bd

    Dear Folks,
    This is an idea that I have been toying with since 1999.
    Establishment of small scale (about 5~10kl per day Bio Diesel plants) to be owned and operated by alternate fuel users and enthusiast.
    There has been people like ABG and many more across the globe who are looking at setting up big units only.However to improve the economy on a micro level and sharing of wealth concept inclusive of everyone doing there share to keep planet earth clean.Such micro module plants that cater to a particular community or region can be established at developed at ease.
    For example we have all states Bio Diesel forum .Individuals all trying to cook their own BD.
    If we collectively take a stand to make our bio diesel for each region .Intially with the feed available and at the same time look at the options of other feed that can be developed region specific ...like may it be Jatropha,canola,mustard,lard,tallow or other seed bearing fruits that can be cultivated keeping sight of our long time goal of have local control of production and most importantly costs.
    This is what they have been very successfully implementing in India.True the labour cost in India is low.But I am sure that we can work something out OZ wide.
    Look forward to everyones thoughts.........

    Every country town/suburb having their own BD browser and hopefully a small continuous BD plant.

    A dream indeed......

  • #2
    Re: Small Scale Business On Bd

    Sounds like a good idea to me.
    Anyone else in the Hornsby area interested?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Small Scale Business On Bd

      I like the idea too. I'd love to see little community groups appearing with biodiesel cooperatives. Each member sharing time, storage space, feedstock collection, processing, waste disposal etc. Unfortunately there are many obstacles in Aus with our very shortsighted tax rulings asking for excise to be paid unless one can prove that one is making Biodiesel to the Australian standard, which is prohibitively expensive to prove for a small scale set up.
      If anyone has positive or practical suggestions on how to still do this bearing the above in mind, I'd love to hear them and certainly also to help implement them in my own community and others.
      I'm tired of just complaining about it and I'd love to find a way to do it properly, legally and in a way that can be openly advertised and promoted to the public.
      Robert.
      Site Admin.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Small Scale Business On Bd

        what testing is required to show that the product meets the Australian std?

        The expensive part of analysis is the operators time generally, there can be high capital costs but this not always the case. When I was working as a chemist my bill out rate was $125/hr, I didn't even get 1/5th of that

        With some basic equipment, manuals (methods) and training could an average Home brewer test to show compliance?

        glen
        glenos

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Small Scale Business On Bd

          As I understand it, it has to be done by a govt certified lab. I believe that each test costs around $2,000 and requires 4L. I also heard that there are no certified test labs in NSW, so you have to send them to VIC. Could someone with some more information on this please pipe up?

          Cheers,
          Robert.
          Site Admin.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Small Scale Business On Bd

            G Day Folks,
            It so good to see this forum is taking interest in the idea of having small sustainable BD plants.
            I am not sure to which specs does Aus follow with regards to testing.
            In India they are sticking to the requirement as per ASTM norms.
            I wasn't aware that there does not exist a Lab in NSW for testing.Which I think can be easily overcome by putting up a collective /community laboratory(even get the Govt to fund it)...till the same is up and ready we could have the test done in any NABL registered Lab offshore.The advantage would be cost saving.
            I attached the ASTM specs and material balances of different feed source along with a Bloc dia showing the essential+a degumming section which has to be incorporated if we are to achieve specification as per ASTM.



            But yes it is definetly possible to have community refining as is being implemented in India.......
            Look forward to more interests on the matter.
            If anyone in this forum wants more details please feel free to give me a call or mail.

            Cheers
            Sauman

            India Mob:+91-9339227130
            Robert
            Administrator
            Last edited by Robert; 13 March 2006, 10:50 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Small Scale Business On Bd

              That block diagram is a fair size can't remember seeing one like it, even when I was studying the conneman CD and super critical processes. Anyway simple tests do exist that will give an inidcation of close to ASTM compliance. Just the way you are making it(including what you are making it in and the quality of everything used) is likely to indicate ASTM compliance. Measure the viscosity and sepecific gravity is the most important thing since it determines good combustion. After that you have unreacted FFA, reaction completion, water content, particle contamination etc.

              If someone was offering to sell me biodiesel that hadn't yet met spec I would measure its specific gravity and viscosity. Now measuring weight accurately isn't that difficult is it. Simple viscosity testers are avaliable. Followed by a visual inspection (After I have let is sit for a few hours to make sure no layers form) of a sample in a one litre bottle, if it is crystal clear its okay. Finally I would burn the sample (or some of it) in a container and then check for no left over residue, this is the part I would charge $2000 for it is quite dangerous, though it is fun. After I have purchased It might then perform a simple cleansing and purification(this includes filtration) that pretty much guarentee's ASTM spec.

              These steps would be fine by me as long as I could get a sample from near the bottom of the holding container after it has been agitated significantly. The larger the container the more samples I would like.

              Their are a few things in the ASTM spec I am not sure about like free and dissolved water, the ASTM spec couldn't be referring to dissolved water in my opinion, maybe it is.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Small Scale Business On Bd

                I am very involved with Australian farming.
                What I see is the Aussie farmer slipping further and further behind, fuel costs are a large part of that.
                I envision that the future of profitable farming will also include producing their own fuel, for tractors, trucks, electicity generators, pumps harvesters etc. They use heaps of fuel !!
                They can grow and harvest the oil crop easily, but crushing or extracting oil is different. That is probably the difficult part for them...any suggestions?
                Many farmers plow excess or spoiled crops back into the ground, this would be good for ethanol production and then there is hydrogen fuel...cheap sustainable and powerful.
                Every farm should have one
                Peter
                Peter Jack
                Healthy Earth Fertilizers

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Small Scale Business On Bd

                  Originally posted by Healthy Earth
                  I am very involved with Australian farming.
                  What I see is the Aussie farmer slipping further and further behind, fuel costs are a large part of that.SO TRUE!!!
                  I envision that the future of profitable farming will also include producing their own fuel, for tractors, trucks, electicity generators, pumps harvesters etc. They use heaps of fuel !!Spot on
                  They can grow and harvest the oil crop easily, but crushing or extracting oil is different. That is probably the difficult part for them...any suggestions?WE NEED TO HAVE A COLLECTIVE FORUM BY MEANS OF WHICH WE CAN SHARE AND HELP THE FARMING COMMUNITY.
                  LIKE MAYBE HAVING COOP EXPELLING ,COOP PRODUCTION OF FUEL.
                  Many farmers plow excess or spoiled crops back into the ground, this would be good for ethanol production and then there is hydrogen fuel...cheap sustainable and powerful.
                  Every farm should have one.SO VERY RIGHT.Lets keep the dream alive.
                  I know we can do it.And can be done only together.




                  Peter
                  Lets work towards that Peter.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Small Scale Business On Bd

                    Originally posted by Healthy Earth
                    I am very involved with Australian farming.
                    What I see is the Aussie farmer slipping further and further behind, fuel costs are a large part of that.
                    I envision that the future of profitable farming will also include producing their own fuel, for tractors, trucks, electicity generators, pumps harvesters etc. They use heaps of fuel !!
                    They can grow and harvest the oil crop easily, but crushing or extracting oil is different. That is probably the difficult part for them...any suggestions?
                    Many farmers plow excess or spoiled crops back into the ground, this would be good for ethanol production and then there is hydrogen fuel...cheap sustainable and powerful.
                    Every farm should have one
                    Peter
                    I disagree with your closing statement. Hydrogen is currently one of the MOST polluting fuels when the full life cycle is evaluated. In Australia, it is made from Petroleum and the CO2 emissions from the reaction far exceed the perceived benefits of using hydrogen. If you were serious about the environment, the energy required for production of hydrogen, even from solar or wind generation, would be better used to offset coal, oil or gas produced electricity.

                    Tony
                    Tony From West Oz
                    Vice Chairperson of WARFA
                    Last edited by Tony From West Oz; 16 June 2006, 01:55 AM.
                    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

                    Current Vehicles in stable:
                    '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
                    '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
                    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

                    Previous Vehicles:
                    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
                    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
                    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
                    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
                    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
                    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
                    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
                    '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
                    '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

                    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
                    Adding images and/or documents to your posts

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Small Scale Business On Bd

                      Originally posted by Tony From West Oz
                      I disagree with your closing statement. Hydrogen is currently one of the MOST polluting fuels when the full life cycle is evaluated. In Australia, it is made from Petroleum and the CO2 emissions from the reaction far exceed the perceived benefits of using hydrogen. If you were serious about the environment, the energy required for production of hydrogen, even from solar or wind generation, would be better used to offset coal, oil or gas produced electricity.

                      Tony
                      Tony I am not sure if you have got your chemistry right, Hydrogen can be easily made with 3 v dc electrolysis using similar metals such as mild steel. It is produced from water (H 2 0 ). It is not possible to get CO2 from H20.
                      The interesting thing about this process is that it only takes a very small amount of power to produce hydrogen gas, however the resultant Hydrogen fuel is exponentialy more powerful. In other words the alternator from your car can easily cope with the energy requirements to produce the gas from water via electrolysis to drive the vehicle for thousands of kms. All this from simple god given water . Almost perpetual motion.
                      Hydrogen can also be produced from a simple chemical reaction that does not require electricity at all!!
                      So carbon dioxide is not produced at all, in fact in some hydrogen reactions that are used for fuel there is an exhaust of clean oxygen and water.
                      If you want some more info just google "Browns gas"
                      Peter Jack
                      Healthy Earth Fertilizers

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Small Scale Business On Bd

                        Phew, well I hardly know where to start with this one.

                        Firstly, I think you have highlighted the inherent inaccuracies within your own post when you say

                        Almost perpetual motion.
                        If it were perpetual motion then we'd all be running electrolysis cells off our alternators.

                        Did you read any of the stuff from Google about Brown's Gas? Heres a couple of quotes from:

                        http://www.phact.org/e/bgas.htm

                        On the subject of using electricity to produce Browns gas to fuel an internal combustion engine:

                        The bottom line is that we have put in about a kilowatt of electrical energy to get out under a third as much in mechanical energy. Considering that the efficiency of an electric motor would be over 85% there is no justification at all for using a Brown's Gas generator and an internal combustion engine. An electric motor would do better at less cost and with far greater reliability.

                        and regarding Browns gas used in a fuel cell:

                        Unfortunately, the electrolysis cell requires an input voltage of around 1.7 volts while a practical hydrogen/oxygen fuel cell generates 1.23 volts in theory and perhaps 0.7 volts in practice. Thus the ratio of output electrical power to input electrical power would be roughly 42%. Operating such a system has no conceivable utility.

                        Also

                        Hydrogen can also be produced from a simple chemical reaction that does not require electricity at all!!
                        The chemicals for this simple reaction have to come from somewhere. The energy used to manufacture these chemicals is greater than energy released.

                        Tony was referring to the carbon emmisions from the commercial process used to make Hydrogen. Wikipedia states:

                        Hydrogen can be prepared in several different ways but the economically most important processes involve removal of hydrogen from hydrocarbons. Commercial bulk hydrogen is usually produced by the steam reforming of natural gas. At high temperatures (700–1100 °C), steam (water vapor) reacts with methane to yield carbon monoxide and H2.

                        CH4 + H2O → CO + 3 H2

                        And how do we get the heat to make steam? By burning fossil fuel.

                        I'm not disagreeing that hydrogen could be used as a fuel source, but there are other renewable energies that have a far greater EROEI, Energy Return On Energy Invested.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Small Scale Business On Bd

                          ((Quote)....Hydrogen can be prepared in several different ways but the economically most important processes involve removal of hydrogen from hydrocarbons. Commercial bulk hydrogen is usually produced by the steam reforming of natural gas. At high temperatures (700–1100 °C), steam (water vapor) reacts with methane to yield carbon monoxide and H2.
                          CH4 + H2O → CO + 3 H2
                          And how do we get the heat to make steam? By burning fossil fuel.))

                          Sorry, you obviously have not researched modern hydrogen production, I dont think the hydrocarbon method feasable or even reasonable to quote or compare.

                          As for clean cheap hydrogen production i suppose a picture (video) paints a thousand words and this is just a beginning . click the link http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/...erenginehq.ram
                          I really couldnt see where they hid the 1100 degree furnace you referred to in your criticism or any fossil fuel.
                          There are lots more examples of clean cheap Hydrogen production on the net. No its not perpetual motion, but for the moment, its close enough for me.
                          Healthy Earth
                          Biofuels Forum Newbie
                          Last edited by Healthy Earth; 16 June 2006, 08:09 PM.
                          Peter Jack
                          Healthy Earth Fertilizers

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Small Scale Business On Bd

                            Originally posted by Healthy Earth
                            ((Quote)....Hydrogen can be prepared in several different ways but the economically most important processes involve removal of hydrogen from hydrocarbons. Commercial bulk hydrogen is usually produced by the steam reforming of natural gas. At high temperatures (700–1100 °C), steam (water vapor) reacts with methane to yield carbon monoxide and H2.
                            CH4 + H2O → CO + 3 H2
                            And how do we get the heat to make steam? By burning fossil fuel.))

                            Sorry, you obviously have not researched modern hydrogen production, I dont think the hydrocarbon method feasable or even reasonable to quote or compare.

                            As for clean cheap hydrogen production i suppose a picture (video) paints a thousand words and this is just a beginning . click the link http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/...erenginehq.ram
                            I really couldnt see where they hid the 1100 degree furnace you referred to in your criticism or any fossil fuel.
                            There are lots more examples of clean cheap Hydrogen production on the net. No its not perpetual motion, but for the moment, its close enough for me.
                            Hi there
                            In reference to Hydrogen as fuel you may have a look at this link which is the only decent as well as scientifically supported that is available
                            The fact of the matter is that even though this fellows are WAY in front of any one in the world their own $ sums indicate that it not a goer as yet at about $4.50 per kg of Hydrogen They are on the job with a proof of concept already working
                            The secret of this promising development is on the catalytic material used to convert sugars into hydrogen by dissassociation of the molecules that form the structure of sugar using fairly low pressure and the heat from the exhaust system of the engine
                            The most interesting part of the whole deal is it is a very good way of producing ethanol as One of teh biggest grain dealers in the world has invested $10M with this guys I wonder why Any way have a look http://www.ecw.org/biomass2power/index.html Yes the picures do tell 1000 words
                            Chris
                            Cheers
                            Chris
                            Never give up :)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Small Scale Business On Bd

                              Originally posted by Healthy Earth
                              Originally Posted by Tony From West Oz
                              I disagree with your closing statement. Hydrogen is currently one of the MOST polluting fuels when the full life cycle is evaluated. In Australia, it is made from Petroleum and the CO2 emissions from the reaction far exceed the perceived benefits of using hydrogen. If you were serious about the environment, the energy required for production of hydrogen, even from solar or wind generation, would be better used to offset coal, oil or gas produced electricity.

                              Tony
                              Tony I am not sure if you have got your chemistry right, Hydrogen can be easily made with 3 v dc electrolysis using similar metals such as mild steel. It is produced from water (H 2 0 ). It is not possible to get CO2 from H20.
                              The interesting thing about this process is that it only takes a very small amount of power to produce hydrogen gas, however the resultant Hydrogen fuel is exponentialy more powerful. In other words the alternator from your car can easily cope with the energy requirements to produce the gas from water via electrolysis to drive the vehicle for thousands of kms. All this from simple god given water . Almost perpetual motion.
                              Hydrogen can also be produced from a simple chemical reaction that does not require electricity at all!!
                              So carbon dioxide is not produced at all, in fact in some hydrogen reactions that are used for fuel there is an exhaust of clean oxygen and water.
                              If you want some more info just google "Browns gas"
                              While it only takes a little bit of electricity to get H2 from H2O, it takes a LOT of energy to get enough to make any useful amount of H2. The you need to pressurise it to obtain sufficient 'energy density' to make it useful as a motive fuel. H2 is one of the great escapees, it leaks from almost any vessel due ti its small molecule size.
                              Someone else has already explained the chemistry for you.

                              I still stand by my earlier statement
                              "If you were serious about the environment, the energy required for production of hydrogen, even from solar or wind generation, would be better used to offset coal, oil or gas produced electricity."
                              Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

                              Current Vehicles in stable:
                              '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
                              '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
                              '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

                              Previous Vehicles:
                              '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
                              '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
                              '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
                              '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
                              '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
                              '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
                              '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
                              '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
                              '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

                              Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
                              Adding images and/or documents to your posts

                              Comment

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