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  • Biodiesel Survey.

    Hi!

    I'm currently studying the effects of biodiesel. While I recognise the need for standards such as those developed under the ASTM and EN families I feel that these might be a bit extreme. Many of the standards are set with a controlled operating environment in mind. What I'm hoping to do is survey users and collate their experiences into a study relating the "quick checks" small producers use to vehicle failures (and non-failures).

    In order to do this I'm trying to survey as many users as possible and will make the results available once the study is complete. If you (Or anyone you know) is keen to participate please contact me at jlseug001@uct.ac.za . I'm also interested in contacting people who used to use biodiesel and now don't. My only affiliation with regard to biodiesel is to the environmental research group at the University of Cape Town so I don't have ulterior motives. My main aim is to potentially (through the survey) show that the engine failure risk (provided a few key parameters are measured) is relatively low. I know that not every producer can afford a Cetane testing rig, or a GC or a Karl Fischer Titrator.

    My experience has been as a homebrewer and I've had a failure or two (My learning curve). I've also previously worked for a small producer in Cape Town setting up a pilot plant. One of the problems selling the biodiesel or event getting people to make and use their own was the quality risk issue and that is what got the idea for my project going. Initially I thought of doing it by analytical means but that is just too big, too slow and too expensive. Besides, the only place where one would get the type of cash to fund a study like that would be from the conventional petro-chemical industry or the auto manufacturers. It would be hard for a biodiesel study funded by either (If ever that would happen) to be seen as unbiased.

    Cheers
    Eugene
    Robert
    Administrator
    Last edited by Robert; 15 March 2007, 09:03 AM. Reason: Moved into new thread in correct place

  • #2
    Re: Biodiesel Survey.

    Eugene,
    While I have never made any biodiesel, I have used biodiesel in blends and straight vegetable oil fro a number of years. I am a relatively low mileage driver and our family has 3, Mercedes Benz 300Ds from the early 1980's.Do you have room in your study for data on straight vegetable oil usage?

    Tony
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
    '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
    '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
    '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Biodiesel Survey.

      Hi!

      I hadn't thought about it but now that you mention it.... .. I reckon it would be easy to include and might add another interesting avenue to explore.

      Cheers
      Eug

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Biodiesel Survey.

        Eug,
        Do you have a pro-proforma questionnaire for us to complete, giving the basic information on which you sort the data and then allow room for us to detail our experiences, or do you just want us to send you our story?
        Tony
        Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

        Current Vehicles in stable:
        '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
        '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
        '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

        Previous Vehicles:
        '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
        '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
        '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
        '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
        '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
        '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
        '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
        '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
        '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

        Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
        Adding images and/or documents to your posts

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Biodiesel Survey.

          What questions would be good to have in it? apart from:
          SVO/ biodiesel, what else the car runs on percentages for each?
          where fuel is sourced,
          what engines owned (toyota, mercedes etc,
          Problems encountered,
          lenght of time have been doing biofuels for.,.
          biodiesel washed, tritrated,
          kilometers traveled.
          UCO or new CO?

          age, marital status, city/ country residence, why doing it (asign importance to environment, savings, technical interest) govt support/ hinderance of biofuels (would love to know backgrounds as a personal interest)
          cheers<BR>Chris.<BR>1990 landcruiser 80, 1HD-T two tank, copper pipe HE+ 20 plate FPHE, toyota solenoids and filters. 1978 300D, elsbett one tank system.<BR>

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Biodiesel Survey.

            Hi!

            Sorry to take so long to respond. Had to head upcountry for a day. I've got a form which I'd prefer people to complete if they do participate. It makes it easier to analyse afterward. I'm open to changing the format slightly if it doesn't work too well. Typically the questionairre has a section to characterise the user, the car, the fuel and then the performance/non-performance. I'm keen to get the good, the bad and the ugly. Only in that way can I convincingly piece together what the real risks are.

            From personal experience I know (And I suppose most biodiesel enthusiasts do too) that glycerine is a baddie. I once went camping and left the crude biodiesel to separate out while we drove. I figured if we got stuck without conventional diesel we could use the biodiesel. It was all a bit of a rush job. At some stage we needed to use the biodiesel. My idea was to pour carefully and not let any of the glycerine into the engine. I'd run fine on unwashed biodiesel before so I didn't foresee any problems. The problem is that I hadn't communicated the glycerine issue to my wife and she filled the tank while I'd gone for a surf. She poured the entire contents of the drum into the tank! By volume I guess the glycerine and biodiesel were probably at about a 50% blend. I'd guess the glycerine must have been about 10% by volume. We've got a 1995 Toyota Hilux 2.8D. We drove with the water separator alarm going off for about a month, slowly bleading the glycerine out and trying to flush the system with conventional diesel. In the end too much glycerine probably slipped through and the entire injector system from pump onward needed to be replaced.

            The experience taught me three key things. If we rode for a month after the incident it shows how robust diesel engines can be. There is a need for some basic QA/QC. You have to get it horribly wrong to mess up your engine badly. Just one of my experiences.... a bit embarassing but makes for a good story and is part of the learning curve.

            Keen to hear about yours.

            Cheers
            Eugene

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Biodiesel Survey.

              Quality and consumer trust are THE keys to getting the public on side with biofuels. As long as there are people making small quanties of biofuels then they need a common standard with an easily recognisable brand that the users can trust. You might even want an organisation that can drum out non compliers... Sorry if that sounds heavy, but the question is really: Are biofuels too important to be left to hobbists?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Biodiesel Survey.

                Simon,
                There would be significantly less biofuels available if the hobbyists had not 'pushed the barrow' for the past 10 years.
                Tony
                Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

                Current Vehicles in stable:
                '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
                '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
                '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

                Previous Vehicles:
                '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
                '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
                '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
                '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
                '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
                '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
                '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
                '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
                '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

                Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
                Adding images and/or documents to your posts

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Biodiesel Survey.

                  Hi!

                  I think standards are important but that ensuring quality does not necessarily mean that hobbyists need be excluded. Some of the analytical parameters in the standards are pretty arbitrary (Unless you pull in the political/vested interest angle). Iodine value sits in the EN family of standards and not in the ASTM family (Most countries have done a copy-paste of either the US or EU standard). Coincidence? Not really when you consider that soya based biodiesel will probably struggle make the EU spec... although canola based biodiesel will.... Thinly veiled agricultural subsidy if you ask me.

                  Aren't biofuels too important to get beyond political and market posturing? This is also not a personal attack on Simon but just an alternate view. I know that standards are the key to long term market confidence but I'm a bit cynical about where the bar has been set and what has been included. Another example... if you're someone who uses biodiesel on a quick turnover... is oxidative stability important to you? Do you really need less than 500ppm of water content if you're going to store the diesel for less than 2 months? I'm not sure these kinds of questions feature when the standards are developed.

                  Cheers
                  Eugene

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Biodiesel Survey.

                    The momentum for the survey seems to have petered out before it got started. I know that surveys and stuff like that tend to be a bit tedious. I myself tend to be a bit lacking in the attention to detail department. What I've started trying to do is get Skype addresses for people and arrange to possibly chat through the survey. That way I figure its less hassle for the person filling it in and I get a better understanding than a simple yes/no response will give.

                    Any comments?

                    Comment

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