URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

[Bio Popo Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bio Popo]

Hi Everyone,
I need to make a trip (my first test-run!) up to Wodonga and would like to do it on the biodiesel I have made thus far. However, I'm not sure of the quality.
I have three batches showing:
1) 15L oil/3L methanol/208.5g KOH, with only a 5% pre-wash, and it has been settling for about a week but sealed so it couldn't dry (whoops)
2) 15L oil/4.75L meth (whoops)/330.125g KOH (whoops), no washing at all, settled for 17hrs -drained 7L, let settle for another 80hrs
3) 20L oil/4L meth/278g KOH, no washing, drained 4.5L after settlign for 15 hrs, let settle another 80hrs or so.

The light coloured bio in some of the pictures is a batch I goofed on and just poured into my by-product carboy to settle out some more, so ignore it please.

I will match the different samples in the pictures to their descriptions above. If anyone could please let me know whether these samples look like they are ready to be used, that would be awesome.

It appears to me that 2), where I goofed and 'overdoesed' on the methoxide, is the clearest. Which suggests to me that I may not be using enough methanol in my process (20%). Therefore I went ahead and processed another batch today using 25% methonal.

ONE more thing! If anyone is still reading....when I went and checked on my bio today, I noticed that 2) had leaked a little by-product from the valve and it had gelled into an amber looking goo. I am in melbourne so I guess it gets a little chilly at night, but the little bit of by-product that leaked from 3) hadn't gelled. What does this mean?

THANK YOU!!!!

Dave

[Dodge Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dodge]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Last weekend was the first batch i made keeping the oil at 45 to 50 celsius for one hour and stirred it with electric drill for the hour, the reaction was more complete and that was at 20% methanol, so i reckon in your situation using more methanol would help, but i am only new to this too, and i hope some of the more experienced members reply. And washing it was easier.

As you draw waste veg oil from its container the level goes down and you maybe drawing on oil that is heavier and wants to solidify, that maybe why one geled and the other didnt.
I could be wrong, and i would rather be told so than continue in the wrong direction.

[joe Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close joe]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

1) 15L oil/3L methanol/208.5g KOH, with only a 5% pre-wash, and it has been settling for about a week but sealed so it couldn't dry (whoops)
2) 15L oil/4.75L meth (whoops)/330.125g KOH (whoops), no washing at all, settled for 17hrs -drained 7L, let settle for another 80hrs
3) 20L oil/4L meth/278g KOH, no washing, drained 4.5L after settlign for 15 hrs, let settle another 80hrs or so.

hi bio, (or was it mr popo)

I'm a little concerned about your KOH usage. Are your titrations amounts very high? Using a base of 9 (which is acceptable in certain schools of thought but still high) in all cases listed above youve got:
1)13.9grams(per litre)-9grams=4.9grams(titration)
2)22grams(per litre) - 9 grams= 13grams
3)13.9grams(per litre)-9grams=4.9grams(titration)

What are you using as your base, how are you titrating and what are your results. You would need very illtreated oil to be titrating at 4.9.

My guess however is that if you got clear seperation and your can test it with a hydrometer and get between .86 and .9 then you've made biodiesel. Cars will take a lot of crap and still run. Look at what the petro-oil industry has been feeding us for decades.

You might however be wasting you ingredients. Also if you've done a prewash you will definately need to dry it properly. Water in your engine will definately mess things up.

Sorry forgot to add, the goo you described might be soap forming from excess KOH.

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

hi bio, (or was it mr popo)
SNIP
My guess however is that if you got clear seperation and your can test it with a hydrometer and get between .86 and .9 then you've made biodiesel. Cars will take a lot of crap and still run. Look at what the petro-oil industry has been feeding us for decades.

SNIP

Joe,
A hydrometer will tell you nothing about the quality of the biodiesel you have made. You can get unprocessed oil with a wide range of SG, even without making biodiesel from it. Unwashed biodiesel may also have a lower SG due to residual methanol in it.
Viscosity is a better indicator of biodiesel conversion as has been tested by Tilly.
A reprocess test is also a valid test of biodiesel conversion.

[joe Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close joe]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Joe,
A hydrometer will tell you nothing about the quality of the biodiesel you have made. You can get unprocessed oil with a wide range of SG, even without making biodiesel from it. Unwashed biodiesel may also have a lower SG due to residual methanol in it.

I stand corrected and

Viscosity is a better indicator of biodiesel conversion as has been tested by Tilly.
A reprocess test is also a valid test of biodiesel conversion.

point taken.

[Bio Popo Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bio Popo]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Hi Guys,
Ok, well I think my main concern is water in the fuel. Am I right? I have not washed the fuel, should my concern be more about conversion rate? The tilly method for measuring viscosity describes it as a test for well washed biodiesel, can I still use it?
To answer your questions Joe - I am using a base level of KOH as 7.7g and got a titration value of 6.2, meaning I am using 13.9g/L of oil. High I know, but it's what I could find. It's from Nando's by the way, in case anyone eats there.
So yeah, I was hoping to leave today.....but I just can't bring myself to use to the biodiesel without knowing for SURE that it's quality is good enough through performing some kind of test or something.
Although today, the batch where I performed a 5% prewash appears VERY clear (but there's not that much of it).
I read that I could test for % of water by microwaving 100g of oil to boil off all the water and then compare the measurements of before and after to find the % of water.

Thanks,
Dave

[Bio Popo Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bio Popo]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Ok, well, I won't be going on my trip today. I'm hoping for tomorrow now. After trying to do the water % test and melting my container, I took some more pictures of my bio, this time though in a nice glass cup. I really do think it looks pretty good, but I guess I just don't have the kahoonas to put it in my tank without some sort of verification.
So here are my three batches again: First is Batch 2, then Batch 3, then Batch 4, as described in first post.

[Bio Popo Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bio Popo]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

and the last picture of batch 4 from the top.

p.s. I had to crop them all a bit so they would fit

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

It looks good to me, I would just pour it in and go

What is the worst that can happen? It's just a Peugeot.

Tilly

[Bio Popo Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bio Popo]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

oooooooooooooh
but seriously tilly, weren't you saying something in another thread about it being OK if it was 'still liquid'? Well what about the leaking by-product forming gel in my 3rd batch? What does that mean?

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Hello bio popo
I have never used KOH to make biodiesel but I understand it is very hard to make gel with it.
The photos of your biodiesel looks nice and clear.
If the biodiesel is crystal clear, there is no sign of gel, and no further sign of glycerine settling out, I would really use it.
I would run it through a very fine filter such as 5 or 10 micron first.
If there is no sign of gel then I would use it.
If something does go wrong, Get Up Keith Addison and send him the repair bill.

Tilly

[Dodge Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dodge]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

I have done the reprocess test that tony mentioned and i reckon its the best.
The only fuel i am willing to put in my vechile being new to making biodiesel is washed and dried biodiesel that i have then taken a small sample of and added more methoxide to it to see if any more glycerine settles out.
From what have being reading if the final product does not have any glycerine settle out and the methoxide floats on top of the biodiesel then that is the best that can be acheived.
But to do that test it has to be washed and dried first.
But then i will be more settled and calm because i have done the very best i can to put a fuel in my engine that i believe is the best i can do at that time and i am convinced that test does not give incorrect results.
I wouldnt be willing to put unwashed fuel in my vechile yet until i have a lot more experience.
Your fuel looks ok, maybe mix it with diesel at first and see how the vechile runs, if it runs ok then use less diesel.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Hello Dodge

The World Famous Dr Pepper ASTM Reprocess test (Pat Pend) is an excellent test Conversion.
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/ubb....7459#435107459

Tilly

[Dodge Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dodge]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Thanks will give it a try.

[Bio Popo Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bio Popo]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Ok, well, yesterday was my test-run. Unfortunately, I'm not reporting good results. Before I give the details of the trip I should note that I did a reprocess test on batch 3. I reprocessed the bio as virgin oil, so I used 1L of bio with 250ml of methanol and 7.7g of KOH. After 19hrs of settling, no by-product at all had settled off, BUT there was a faint line of separation about 1/2 inch from the top although both liquids appeared the same colour (I guess this is the methanol floating on top?). So I concluded that the biodiesel was acceptable, I guess incorrectly so.

I began with roughly half a tank of diesel (35L) and added about 10L of biodiesel (I started with batch 1, the one that had the 5% pre-wash). After 100km, my in-line filter still looked perfect and their was no by-product in the water trap. After 200km I noticed a tiny bit (~1cm) of by-product in water trap but none in the in-line filter.
After 250km both filters looked the same and (when I was at about half a tank again) I added another 5L of biodiesel (batch 2, the overdose batch)
At 300km I found another 1cm of by-product in the water trap (now ~half full), still none in the in-line filter which still looked great. I drained the by-product.
At 350km the water trap was half-full again, and so again, I drained it .
At 400km the water trap was AGAIN half-full and so I drained it again. However, at this point when I started the car it ran for about 50m and then sputtered for a minute and died. I tried starting the car again and after a while it started, but died shortly afterwards in a similar fashion. I tried once more with the same results.
Thinking that the main filter might be clogged, even though the in-line filter looked fine still, I took it off but it still looked OK to me (an untrained eye however).
So I was forced to conclude that it was the fuel and therefore drained the tank of the remaining biodiesel/diesel mix and filled with diesel. Immediately after doing so the car ran fine and I was able to drive the rest of the 200km home with no problems.
So I am perplexed.
If it WAS the biodiesel, how would the bio have caused such a severe reaction so quickly? EVEN when mixed with diesel!! I was under the impression that poorly converted biodiesel COULD be used, but just not for prolonged periods of time. And the problem even occured with NO (I would think) by-product getting into the engine! Meaning if it WAS the biodiesel the contaminants must have been suspended within the fuel. But if it WASN'T the biodiesel, then how could the diesel have suddenly made things better again?
I have to think it was the biodiesel, which means settling for a week is not enough to produce useable biodiesel, even though after that time no additional by-product was separating.
It also struck me how much a difference a simple 5% prewash made - no glycerine until 200km, but with the non-washed bio there was glycerine separated in just 50km. However, that may also be due to the higher perecentage of biodiesel to diesel at that point.

So I guess this is a lesson to everyone to wash their biodiesel? I don't know, I'll wait and see what the experts have to say.

Dave