glow plug SVO heater / water jacket

[Geoffwin Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Geoffwin]

Has anyone had any experience with this unit (or similar) Ebay link

eBay Australia: VOW2F+ Veg oil Biodiesel Fuel Heater Exchanger SVO WVO (item 170117606475, end time 10-Jun-07 16:22:31 AEST)

It sounds like a pretty reasonable setup - but does it work as described?

There is a caution about heating straight diesel ie it is not good for the motor, I assume this caution would also be for BD

Geoff

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: glow plug SVO heater / water jacket

I have not tried this unit but I can not get my little head around believing that it really works.

If I am to use electric heating system, I'd rather heat the coolant at the raidiator hose Block heater as it will respond much faster compared to oil or any thicker liquids.

By the look of the coolant chamber made in this unit it seems too small to have any effect on 10 drop of oil at the time.

Not to mention the load this unit will put on the alternator and the battary.

Now if the engin produces heat which we get in the coolant why can't we use two heat exchangers one before the filter and one before the IP and avoid the dramas with the electric system?

I'd be happy if someone with actual experience can share some knowledge about this unit.

Cheers

[Geoffwin Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Geoffwin]

Re: glow plug SVO heater / water jacket

he did have a couple of different models including one that was stated to preheat before and after filter as well as use coolant heating. Also had sold 495 or so with pretty good feedback?

If the unit is thermostat controlled after the coolant kicks in I assume it would not use glow plugs much at all.

There was a statement of 60 - 90 seconds to bring fuel up to heat, this is longer then glow plugs to the motor but the draw might be the same. The amount of fuel needed to be heated must actually be quite small, only a few litres per hour at highway speeds.

The difficult part would be the initial heating from cold?

Geoff

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: glow plug SVO heater / water jacket

They say it good for a single tank set up.

How does it heat the vegy oil already in the IP and the injectors?

Here is what they added to the item on ebay ...
Visit our website, Visit the forum and read the guide

This guid is ... as follows

Almost any Diesel engine can be run on SVO (Straight Vegetable oil). You will need to know a few things however before you pop down to the supermarket and fill up on rape seed oil.
The type of injectors you have, the pump, the money you have to spend and the time of year will all play a role in the type of conversion you need. You are going to be faced with a few decisions and there are a few things you need to know.
1 Running on cooking oil fresh or not isn't free. You need to contact Customs and Excise and get yourself form EX103. With this you can register as a fuels producer. Each month you will be sent a form to declare how much oil you have used. You return this and payment to HMC&E and your all legal.
2 Make BioDiesel or just use straight oil? Whichever you decide there is an abundance of information free on your favourite search engine. 'Search for Running on cooking oil' 'SVO' 'BioDiesel. Read everything you can. I know there is so much of it and most is conflicting. If you decided to go BioDiesel then read no further. Once you make your diesel fill up and go but remember Bio Diesel is more acidic than diesel but you will know this if you have made some.
3 Ah you’re like me! I read the Bio blurb and decided I’m not a chemist and it all looks a little complicated. Ok decision number 2 SVO, WVO a mix perhaps. OK SVO straight fresh from the shop oils at 40-60p a litre. If you chose this then you are interested in the carbon neutrality and sustainability of running on veg oil. WVO mucky old used veg oil. Ok so you like the idea of saving the planet but want to save a few bob as well. Nothing wrong with that.
SVO Buy the cheapest oil you can rape or sunflower and that’s it.
WVO Collect your dirty oil from friends, restaurants, the local tip or wherever. Buy yourself a big bucket and a 5-micron sock filter (There on Ebay and very reasonable, No I don't sell them). Hang the sock over the bucket and pour your oil in the sock. Empty the bucket into containers. That’s it.
Small point but used oil is thick or solid; more so in winter. Try to collect liquid oil if you can. That is liquid at outdoor temperatures. This will be quicker to filter, easier to handle and wont set like lard in your car. The filters can be washed when they get blocked.
4 Ok so you have your 50 litres of clean or filtered oil what now? Now we face the biggest question of all, duel tank or single tank. They both have for and against. Duel tank can be expensive, hard to fit, you still need Bio or Diesel to start them but they do pose a lesser risk of wear on the injectors, pump and engine. Single tank can be cheap, harder to start in the cold and will wear the engine, pump and injectors quicker than a duel tank. How much quicker nobody yet knows. You need to decide which option you prefer.
Twin tank set-up
2 tanks. 1 with the oil (probably water heated if your smart) 1 with bio or diesel for starting and stopping on. A fuel switch, 6 port is probably the best. A switch and purge reminder. A heat exchanger (water, electric or both, discussed later) and probably a filter along with meters of hose and connectors to connect it all in with. Throw this lot at your best mate because he said you should go veg powered. Once fitted you start the car on bio or diesel. Once the coolant water is heated the oil should be up to operating temp so you throw the switch and you’re a greeney. At the end of the day or if you are leaving it for the day you need to get the oil out of the injectors and pump by purging with Bio or Diesel. Not very good if you are just nipping up town for a loaf of bread and a paper!
Single tank set-up
A heater. No honest that’s it. You need to heat the oil so it is thin like Diesel. You can do this electrically or with the coolant water or even both. Like I said before it does add to the wear and tear of the engine starting on cold veg but its quick and easy and very cheap.
You have 2 ways to heat your oil in the twin and single tank conversions. Electrically, plug in to the mains with a block heater, use a glow plug heater, use a 12v resistive wire heater. With water use a heat exchanger, hose on or hose in hose coil.
Ok there is a bit more to it. You will need to add some diesel to the oil in the single tank This is very important in the winter as the Diesel will help you to start in the morning and stop the oil from becoming a big block of lard in your tank. Water heaters take a long time to get hot so with the single tank conversion you should go electric as they heat very quickly. You can use water to supplement the electric but until you get it started there will be no warm water. You should add injector cleaner now and again. This has two benefits, first it helps remove any deposits from the burning of cold veg oil and it has a centane improver. (Centane is the opposite of Octane. High octane burns easy. High centain resists burning) in a diesel a high centain number is a good thing. Now that’s all there is to it.

A few things I just remembered. You need a good battery and alternator to go electric heating. Watch out for kits using copper as it seems to react with WVO. If you are on a single tank start with a low mix of oil to diesel and work up. Whatever way you go make sure you change the oil and filters regularly. NO I mean it, you will regret it if you don’t.

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: glow plug SVO heater / water jacket

I see this unit is very good for using blend not SWVO.

While two tank conversion is much better since we can use as little as 1 litre of either diesel, or bio or een a reasonable blend to start/stop the engine then change over to 100% SVO.

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: glow plug SVO heater / water jacket

I have an issue with this unit.

It has coolant flowing thru it while cold, which will absorb most of the heat the GPs add to the veggie oil, by chilling the aluminum block of the unit, thru which the oil flows.

Even when warmed up, I doubt that it would adequately heat the veggie oil, due to the low residence time and small surface area of the heat exchanger.

For reliable, effective heating of the veggie oil, add a real heat exchanger - a 10 to 30 plate FPHE. I prefer to heat the oil before the filter and again before the IP as the IP is preheated before the veggie passes to it.
Even if using blends (consider the excise liabilities) I recommend that you add at least one fuel heater to the system, before the fuel filter. If you can obtain 2 fuel heaters, then also add one before the IP.

It should not be a matter of if you can affors them, your savings on fuel costs will more than pay for any modifications to ensure reliability.

Tony

[angus@aroundyoga.com Member Find all posts View Profile Close angus@aroundyoga.com]

Re: glow plug SVO heater / water jacket

From my rough calculations a running car will have to heat 100ml of fuel every 1 to 2 minutes. I don't reckon a pair of glowplugs would have too much trouble doing that, and I agree with Tony it's a rather small heat exchanger.

From the Vow2B which was an electrical only heater you can see that the coolant heating has been added as an afterthought in the VOW2F

He does say that you've got to have a good alternator, so the disadvantage of this system will be that any shortcoming in the coolant heating he supplies will have to be covered by your car's electrical system.

If you're interested in one of these I'd email him and ask him what rate of oil throughput he can get from the unit when heated up by coolant only.

You will then be able to work out if these glowplugs will be used a lot or a little, and get an idea of how quickly you'll have a flat battery!


remember he does say you have to change the glowplugs every year or so.

I think this might be a clever little electrical heater which would be good to put near the IP, but I doubt it's the whole answer.

And it's nice to see more people inventing things to help us eh?

[Qwarla Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qwarla]

Re: glow plug SVO heater / water jacket

Glow plug heaters are not new and can be found on other forums.

I have built one very cheaply from a T piece, 2 hose tails and a plug. Plug was drilled and tapped to take the glow plug.
These units should NOT be put right before the IP as the fuel could carbonise and then release solid particles that your IP will not be able to digest.
However the can be put just before an inline filter that's right next to the IP.

The purpose of my heater is to prevent my filter plugging with gelled bio in winter, so it does not have to raise the temp of the fuel much to do this. Hopefully I won't have to spoil any of my nice clean bio this winter by having to add half a tank of that smelly dead dino ****.

Electric current drain is not an issue at all. A single glow plug only draws around 10 amps. You have 4 or 6 in your engine so when they are on you are using lots more power there. Most vechiles these days have at least 65 to 85 amp alternators, or more. So to end up with a flat battery you must be doing something wrong.

Geoffwin,
You might be surprised to find the engine glow plugs operate longer than 60 - 90 seconds. Don't think that they are only powered up while the light on the dash is on. The indicator light is only there to tell you to wait for them to heat before cranking. You will find that they also do an after-glow once the engine is started. The lenght of the after-glow will vary with makes and models. I can tell you that my Triton continues to power the glow plugs until the temp gauge rises above the 'C' mark on the gauge.

[Guest Close David]

Re: glow plug SVO heater / water jacket

I fully agree with Fitians and Tony's comments.
The only thing I could see as to the heating power of the unit is the fuse which is 16 amp. Logically the power consumption of the plugs will have to be below that which at say 15 amps, would only translate to 207 watts at best.

There are formulas for working out heat input-volume-temprature co effecients but without even doing the calculations, I can state to a fact that this is completely insufficent heating for probably even a small industrial engine let alone a vehicle engine.
A 20 Plate FPHE typically has a heating value of 5Kw and experienced people here are suggesting the use of 2 of them so 207 watts heating input would have to be Highly questionable at best and a joke in practacality.

Off the top of my head without doing the calculations, I would be very surprised if this device would add even 10 oC of temp increase to the fuel flow of any vehicle engine and I thik it would more likely be well belw that. Don't forget on a diesel, the amount of fuel returned to the tank is many times what is actually consumed but it is all normally passed through the HE to be warmed up.

As Tony points out, the coolant flowing through the thing would render the electric heating completely and utterly ineffective wether hot or cold anyway!

Fitians highlighted extracts in the fine print show the real hypocracy in the units headline features and benifits. If the thing needs a blended fuel to work properly, the car will run just as well without the heater in the first place ( under any circumstances!)

There is NO electric heating that comes even close to the heat supplied by the engine. If that heat isn't available for a time till the engine warms up from cold, no amount of electric heat is going to make any difference to the injection temp of the fuel and another approach, AKA, 2 tank or blending needs to be taken.

[deedyau Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close deedyau]

Re: glow plug SVO heater / water jacket

I have one of these heater and after swithed on it soon becomes to hot to touch. It heats the fuel no problems Although I do have anothe heater closer to the IP.

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: glow plug SVO heater / water jacket

I have one of these heater and after swithed on it soon becomes to hot to touch. It heats the fuel no problems Although I do have anothe heater closer to the IP.

Of course it will be too hot to touch but how hot is the oil comming out of it?

Thanks

[Geoffwin Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Geoffwin]

Re: glow plug SVO heater / water jacket

[quote=Qwarla;16126]Glow plug heaters are not new and can be found on other forums.



Geoffwin,
You might be surprised to find the engine glow plugs operate longer than 60 - 90 seconds. quote]

That time scale was in relation to the sellers description of the period of time to bring the fuel - I guess in the unit - up to heat. Since some of the units are thermostatically controlled the potential is there for the plug to operate for an extended period of time.

Here is a quote of my conversation (email) read from end of course

Hi
The plugs have the fuel in the unit up to temp in under 2 mins. This is then
fed to the IP. While the engine and IP are cold some heat is lost in the
fuel. This stops once the IP and engine are up to temp but this happens
faster due to the hot oil.
This system works but I suggest you post on the forum to get independent
answers from other users.
Regards David
BioDisel WVO SVO
Don't forget to join the Forum
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Winnett" <geoffwin@gmail.com>
To: "Vow2Web" <Admin@Vow2.co.uk>
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 11:35 AM
Subject: RE:

> Thanks for the info
>
>> I can assure you the heaters get fuel up to temp.
>> This is however dependant
>> on flow rate and ambient temp but average fuel
>> temp of 70oC is normal.
>
> is this temp attained before the engine is at operating
> temps? , how long after glowing the fuel or starting the
> vehicle from cold.
>
> I still cannot see how the system provides enough heat to
> heat the SVO enough initially, especially in the unit that
> also has the coolant pass through as well as the glow plugs.
>
> Geoff
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Vow2Web [mailto:Admin@Vow2.co.uk]
>> Sent: Sunday, 3 June 2007 23:06
>> To: Geoff Winnett
>> Subject: Re:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> A single tank set-up is absolutely possible. I
>> run 2 on 100% SVO and WVO
>> without any problems. They are still ok down to
>> -5oC although starting is
>> easier with 90%.
>>
>> The oil in the pump isn't all injected as at
>> least half is returned to tank.
>> Oil that is injected burns ok because of the
>> engine glowplugs. It is
>> important to have a good set of plugs in the
>> engine otherwise starting can
>> be a problem. We have done hundreds of single
>> tank conversions as well as
>> hundreds of twin tank systems.
>>
>> There is no doubt that twin tanks are better for
>> long term use but cost and
>> simplicity is a big factor for most. As most of
>> the conversions are on older
>> cars being used as test conversions most select a
>> single tank conversion as
>> it is cheap. We have run for 2 and a half years
>> on a single with 100% oil
>> without any breakdowns caused by oil. Regular
>> checks have revealed no more
>> damage than that caused by running on diesel.
>> Lucas pumps are a little more
>> fragile and run better on 75% oil.
>>
>> I can assure you the heaters get fuel up to temp.
>> This is however dependant
>> on flow rate and ambient temp but average fuel
>> temp of 70oC is normal.

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: glow plug SVO heater / water jacket

Thanks mate for your effort there.

I personally will continue to use coolant heat exchangers since they do a very good safe job without adding any strain on GPs, Alternator or battary.

Cheers

[Geoffwin Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Geoffwin]

Re: glow plug SVO heater / water jacket

Using 2 tanks I was more interested in getting oil up to temp a little bit quicker, especially before the IP.

I have just serviced the toyota 1HZ and found some fat in the filter (not much) and also noticed the delphi CAV filter appeared to be quite "full" the folds in the filter appeared to be expanded.

Re installed stock filter after issues with bleeding and significant difference in running, so probably was a fuel problem.

I had a couple of issues with oil pressure and electrical when at certain times eg oil pressure low with blinker and brake light the electrics seemed to fail. I was concerned it was related to oil pressure and/or sender unit but now also think it might be related to lack of fuel?.

Since oil change has not happened, but early yet. Since running the 50:50 blend and bio I have noticed an increase in oil consumption (none to 2 litres per 5K).

This was first service after starting on blends so will be interesting to see what happens next 5K

[Strawb Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Strawb]

Re: glow plug SVO heater / water jacket

Hello
I have made my own heater.It has two glow plugs.The coolant water also runs through it.In the unit is also a 15 micron gause filter.The filter can be cleaned and reused.The glow plugs are thermaticaly controled.When the unit is up to temp either by water temp or glow plug heating the plugs stay of.
Cheers