Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

[Tim-HJ61 Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Tim-HJ61]

Hello,
A mate has an 80 series Landcruiser with a large auxilliary fuel tank he uses to run 100% oil. He uses the standard tank to run diesel for start up shutdown.

He runs a Vormax and was still getting a lot of gunk deposits that was causing grief. After scraping inside the tank around the sender unit and finding goo on the end of his probe, he cut the bottom out of the tank to reveal a dastardly disgusting mess.





The facts as I know it:

• Plain steel tank
• Not heated
• Cottonseed
• Polymerisation was worse at top of tank, nil at bottom.
• He filled a 9l plastic bucket with the scrapings.
• I have some wrapped in foil and it's gone quite plasticky/rubbery over time.

Theory is that the steel of the fuel tank acted as a catalyst to the splashing fuel, causing it to react, oxidise and stick to the sides and top of the tank.

Solution.
He cleaned then painted the inside of the tank with two pack epoxy paint, then welded up the tank.
After a month or so, he has had no further problems.

Conjecture:

• Was it the cottonseed oil?
• Is it because it was a large aux tank there was lots of movement and splashing?
• Is it bound to happen to all of us at random?

There is an article on oxidisation by <a href="http://www.frybrid.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1491&d=1167782933"> Joe Beatty</a>.


I'm not looking at getting into a discussion about Joe Beatty's article, or the use of copper or oxidisation and polymerisation; simply presenting the photos that I took for the benefit of others.

I hope they are useful
Tim

[W123 x 2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close W123 x 2]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

Hi,

Are you sure that tank is plain steel? It looks like gal. to me? If it's gal., that's the problem. Tony can answer better as he had a similar issue early on. Not sure what happens, but there is a chemical reaction with the zinc and a gel results.

Michael

[Guest Close David]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

Tim,

Do you know how long this took to occour? IE, How long has your mate been using veg?

Would you also know what filtering and processing he does before he puts the oil in his car?

Do you know where he sources his oil from?

I have seen this stuff form on the top of tins where oil has been spilt and left and it is certainly a persistant substance that is hard to remove.

Is anyone aware if this is just something that happens with cottoseed oil or is it more prevelant with some oils than others?
I'm also wondering if the addition of something like small percentages of ULP would prevent or minimise the problem due to the vapors taking the place of the oxygen and not allowing the oil to fully dry out?

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

I'd be interested to get answers to all David's questions.

[BrianW Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BrianW]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

Tim,

Do you know how long this took to occour? IE, How long has your mate been using veg?

Would you also know what filtering and processing he does before he puts the oil in his car?

Do you know where he sources his oil from?

I have seen this stuff form on the top of tins where oil has been spilt and left and it is certainly a persistant substance that is hard to remove.

Is anyone aware if this is just something that happens with cottoseed oil or is it more prevelant with some oils than others?
I'm also wondering if the addition of something like small percentages of ULP would prevent or minimise the problem due to the vapors taking the place of the oxygen and not allowing the oil to fully dry out?

Hi there, the vehicle/tank as shown above is mine, so hopefully I can help to answer some of the questions.

I have been running the oil for almost two years now. Reasonably early on I saw the presence of the polymer in my filter and as it started to block up the pickup line. I had no idea what it was or how to deal with it, even after extensive searches on the subject. Towards the end I had to lift the tank out to get access to the underside floor in the back and found that the scum was quite thick and was mainly prevalent on the top of the tank and decreased towards the bottom.

The oil comes from a fish'n'chip shop and they run it through a paper filter prior to pumping into the drums. For this reason and because I have chosen to a Vormax I do not do any other filter except for a basic gauze inline filter as it comes from my transfer pump into the car tank.

There was no formation of the polymer in my drums.

The tank is not galvanised and I have confirmed from inspection and from the manufacturer, who guarantees it is not due to the hassles and they stopped doing it long ago.

I have read that adding an antioxidant would have probably prevented the formation of the polymer. Apparently iron is good in acting as a catalyst in this reaction, although thankfully copper is much better (worse for us) in cuaing the polymer to occur. The only thing I don't know about is what sort of antioxidant would be best for my situation.

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

Hello Brian,

Could you please give some details about your conversion set up?

What sort of heat exchangers are you using?

Because I think if you were using a FPHE before your filter then the FPHE will be blocked way before the filter.

Thanks for sharing your info mate

[BrianW Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BrianW]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

I have a Pollack 6 port right next to the injector pump and just before that there is a vegetherm (30A version).

There is no heating in or around the tank. The oil moves up into the back of the car where there is a Vormax mounting in the side compartment and is heated via coolant with additional coolant heating around the filter itself.

To increase the flow through the Vormax and get the first stage doing something for me the return when on vege is just before the Vormax.

When on diesel/biodiesel I have return to the diesel tank. This helps me to clear air locks etc.

[W123 x 2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close W123 x 2]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

Hmmm, not gal. I run the same oil from a similar source. I have checked all 4 of my tanks, and there is no sign of polymerisation.

The only thing I do differently is that I blend with 10 - 15% ulp and 'diesel power'. I wonder if the ulp prevents polymerisation? Anyone?

Michael

[Guest Close David]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

As there is no fine filtering or de-watering being done, I can't help but think this may have something to do with the problem. I believe disolved water can make this problem more likely as can other substances that are held in the finer particles that would still be in the oil.

Could the oil be high in titration and if so, could that have anything to do with the problem?

I recently started picking up some oil from a fish & chip place who switch off the fryer and drain the oil straight into metal buckets for me to collect the next morning. The buckets never leave the kitchen till I get it. I have tested this stuff in a hot pan test and it has loads of water in it.
If the oil you are using is similarly wet, I would fully expect problems of some sort and this may be a manifestation of them.

I mainly use plastic drums for storing my unprocessed oil and have never noticed anything like this although I have only been collecting oil for about 9 months or so. I also use plastic fuel tanks for my ULP or bio blends and they appear always clean as well but the fuel dosen't sit in them too long either as the are only 25L and are constantly getting topped up with fresh fuel.

[W123 x 2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close W123 x 2]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

Hadn't thought of the water.
Brian, have you got access to a high school microscope? It would be interesting to do up a slide of the goo and take a look at it for signs of life. If I remember correctly, there was a guy in Adelaide who had red slime forming in his oil/tank. He too did not dewater or fine filter. His description sounded like the photos above, and I think it was cotton seed oil too.
Michael

[Tim-HJ61 Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Tim-HJ61]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

As there is no fine filtering or de-watering being done, I can't help but think this may have something to do with the problem. I believe disolved water can make this problem more likely as can other substances that are held in the finer particles that would still be in the oil.

I recently started picking up some oil from a fish & chip place who switch off the fryer and drain the oil straight into metal buckets for me to collect the next morning. The buckets never leave the kitchen till I get it. I have tested this stuff in a hot pan test and it has loads of water in it.
If the oil you are using is similarly wet, I would fully expect problems of some sort and this may be a manifestation of them.

Not wanting to divert the thread, but where is the water coming from? I have the same pick up process - Straight out of the fryer into my drums, lids on, I pick up. Sometimes it's still 80°+ when I pick it up. How can water become a problem in these situations? You've given me something else to worry about now!

Back to Brian's tomato paste:
The mesh filter is probably less than 80 micron, so there are only tiny particles in his tank, which most likely would settle to the bottom as they do in the 200l drums over time. Yet we don't see polymerisation on the sides of the 200l plain steel drums we all, (most of us) use for storing.

Someone's suggestion about adding ULP or something that would fill the void in the tank with vapour rather than air may be on the right track to stopping the polymerisation. Alternatively, Brian's simple paint job may be the real answer so the steel is not available to the oil to act as a catalyst.

I'm looking more at the properties of Cottonseed rather than course filtration and no dewatering.

Tim

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

Tim,

I just learnt something new last night from Wayne "that clever guy with tests and charts on our forums".

Wayne said "even though you collect the oil boiling hot from the fryer, it would still have some water suspended in it. The water would be around 0.5% of all the oil and this percentage will go unnoticed in 99% of engines."

I am not going to worry about 0.5% of 60 litres now since I have been using the same oil since October 06 with no dramas in three cars.

[W123 x 2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close W123 x 2]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

I am no chemist, but I thought the ulp acted like a brine/pickle/disinfectant to the wvo/svo and prevented growths? I believe ulp homogenises with the oil and perhaps this is what prevents polymerisation?

Water issues have been discussed long and hard in this and other forums (fora?). In short if it were distilled water, at 0.5% there would be no issue/problems. It's the dissolved salts and acids in the water that pits/corrodes/eats away at the fine tolerance bits of moving metals in the fuel system and engine.

Michael

[Guest Close David]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

I can only imagine the water comes from the food that is cooked in the fryer. Wether that be water that is somehow forced out of the food ( like the moisture in potatoes/chips) or it comes from frozen foods in the bits of ice that always seem attached to them (Some Chips, Chiko rolls etc) and dosen't have time to boil out.

I have tried dewatering by boiling and I know from first hand observation, you can have oil smoking hot yet it will still have water in it and it dosen't show bubbles or spitting or anything else. Deeper vessels of oil seem to make water harder to boil off.

Perhaps food is cooked in the fryer which gives off water and the fryer is then drained before this water has a chance to boil off/ evaporate?

My maths has always been lousy, but as close as I can figure it, 0.5% water in 60L of oil is 300ml. I believe a standard cup is 250Ml so 300ml is over a cup full of water in every tank! I would be freaking if evey time I filled my tank, someone came up and tipped a large cup of water in there. To me that seems excessive and I'm a person who runs water injection on their engine!

I certainly wouldn't want that much water to be going through the fuel system and as well as what Michael points out, the water having salts, sugars etc in it, I have also been told about the damaging effects of cavitation.
In fairness, I doubt every batch of oil has this much water as a lot of oil I have collected would pass a hot pan test with no dewatering at all, but other stuff such as I am collecting from a place now well may have a lot more.

After reading endless amounts of posts on water and de-watering, I am now a certified expert on the subject and know all there is to know about it.
I know If I do all I can to remove all the water from my oil and it will pass a hot pan test without a bubble, then I don't need to know or worry about any of the other ten thousand arguments and opinions that surround the subject. As such, I dry all my oil as a matter of course and thats it.
This is probably the Lazy experts way of doing things but it suits me.

I am quite sure there is a perfectly safe amount of water that can be disolved in the oil that won't cause harm and may even have some benifits but I have never seen any suggestion of how much water is allowable.
I do know that too much is a very bad thing so I can only err on the side of caution and do what I can to make sure what I put in my car has as little water as possible. For this reason I have built myself a drying tank and run my oil through it till I get no bubbles at all in a hot pan test.

If there is a possibility that water had anything to do woth the gunk in Brians fuel tank, to me that would be another reason that make the bit of effort I go to to get the water out of my oil all the more worth while, even if it is just for the piece of mind I get from doing it

[Alga Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alga]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

Hi interesting thread, as I am using unheated blends currently and have no such problems. With regard to water in the oils, I operated hotels etc for many years and can say there is a lot of water that goes into the deep fry process. Most frying food today, is frozen and can contain 15-20% water which is dissolved into the oil. I get my oil from different sources and can tell what the amount of water may be from each. From Indian restaurants, I never get water as they don't use frozen foods, fish and chip shops have heaps. I use a 200lt settling drum and only place 160lt in it at a time. I always get 3-4 cups of water from this oil, included in this mix would be lots of salts, chemicals (food) and sugars.

So far my unheated blends are working fine and I have just bought another diesel (89 land cruiser), and will continue with blends in this as well. I feel the gunk in the tank has to do with not filtering or settling the oil and so allowing many combinations of things to have free rein in the tank. When you add agitation as well, this could be the result. I still have bottles of different blends sitting in my shed where temperatures get down to below zero overnight for the last 3 months, I shake them daily and still they haven't separated nor done anything but remain clear.

Removing the contaminates by settling and filtering would surely be the sensible way to go, to ensure maximum separation of the oil from the additives.