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Tubby
30th May 2006, 02:16 PM
Hi All,

I'm a newby to the forum and would like to share the frustrations I have found.:(
I have been putting together a co - op of people to invest in a medium scale production facility for the past 3 - 4 months. We are looking at the southside of the river - all the big boys are to the north ! I have been investigating the "containerised plants" on the o/s market. I am totally blown away with the general wall of bs I have hit ! Pricing starts from 10K euro to 3 million euro to produce 20k litres a week. Many Aus operators have grabbed "agencies" from the european suppliers and provide little or no service to prospective clients. I have found this to be happening as these "agents" are setting up their own plants and/or trying to build a monopoly. All is fair in business but here comes another "petro monopoly"

The reason for us looking at the containerised systems is easy access to the European technology. Considering they are probably 10 years advanced over Aus. The whole idea behind these systems is to decentralise the production of biodiesel and make it an affordable product to the general public everywhere.

I had one "agent" try and tell me the market in Qld will be flooded and I would not be able to sell the stuff! What the ! Dude, sell me the plant, keep your marketing !:rolleyes:

We have looked at feed stock alternatives and the given up on used oil options (people or gettn gready !) and are importing our own oil extractors. We are now contracting seed feed stock.

After my little winge, has anyone had any dealings with "Containerised" systems?
I think I will have to learn to weld ! If you guys and make plants from old hot water systems, I could make something myself on a larger scale !

Also anyone know anything about new gov regs coming in July :eek: ?

Anyone heard anything about this new microreactor developed or is it bs ?
The size of a credit card and not chemicals needed.
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paddy
5th June 2006, 12:48 PM
Tubby,

Building a plant is something that we can possibly discuss at a later date but I had a look at your question about what the government announcements re. 1 July 2006 will mean night. When I looked at the question I found the whole tax treatment of biofuels was very complex and decided to try to work through it.

I am keenly aware that some of the information below my be wrong (or indeed, very wrong) but I am posting it as a starting point - I hope that others others will contribute their understanding and correct any mistakes or enlarge on some of the questions.

My understanding is that there are 5 sets of tax/government support issues that have an impact on the tax treatment of biodiesel and while each of them is relatively straightforward it gets complicated when they overlap.

Set 1: Situation now (June 2006) - Standard excise duty with full refund.
Biodiesel is currently subject to 38.14c/litre tax but this is refunded in full by an equivalent production grant.

Set 2: Introduction of tax on biofuels 2011 - 2015
Biodiesel will be fuel tax exempt until 2011. From 2011 to 2015 the net fuel tax will increase gradually to 19.1c per litre (as refund decreases). This is approx half the ordinary tax on petrol and diesel when used for cars and trucks of less than 4.5 tonnes.

Set 3: Government reform of tax on fuel used for business.
The government is in the process of making the following business uses of fuel tax free (dates for implementation in brackets):
Fuel used 'off road' (phased btw 2008 - 2012)
Power generation (1 July 2006)
Burner fuels (heating / kerosene) (1 July 2006)
Fuel used in trucks heavier than 4.5 tonnes (1 July 2006) to be replaced by a 'flat?' Road User Fee. I donít know how exactly this Road User Fee is calculated (the National Transport Commission does it) but I understand that it is likely to be only 20c per litre.Set 4: Phase out of Alternative Fuel Grant under Energy Grants (Credit) Scheme - phase out (2006 - 2011).
Under this scheme set up on 1 July 2003, business users of biodiesel get a grant of 18c/litre. This will be reduced to 14.8c/litre on 1 July 2006 and disappear completely by 1 July 2010.

Set 5: Biofuels Capital Grants project
This is a government scheme that closed in 2004. It is not really related to tax but it gives successful applicants a grant of 16c/litre of biofuel. It is relevant in that producers who got grants will enjoy this grant in theory, although I practice the money was paid out to them at the time their production facility was created.

I have worked out two tables that I think set out the tax treatment of biodiesel when compared with (1) business use fuels and (2) private use fuels - I've attached them to this post as a PDF. Please report back on any errors they find or further information they come across.

Paddy

Robert
6th June 2006, 11:09 AM
Hey Paddy,

Welcome to the forums and thankyou very much for your contribution :D

We all need to know more about the tax issues around biodiesel, so thanks for your summary, I'm sure many will find it useful.

I might also move this bit to a new thread on tax (http://www.biofuelsforum.com/showthread.php?p=2727) to make it easier for everyone to find.

Cheers

isuzurover
7th June 2006, 03:14 AM
Anyone heard anything about this new microreactor developed or is it bs ?
The size of a credit card and not chemicals needed.


Sorry to hear of your woes.

To comment on the microreactor - I have been involved in microreactor development for other applications. It as a lot of potential, but the technology is definitely in its infancy. Also, the throughput from one reactor is very small, so you would need a huge bank of reactors - with inherent scale-up problems. The cost at the moment would also be prohibitive, compared to other systems. So unless you have lots of spare money for R&D and a long time-scale, I would stick to more conventional production methods at the moment.

Chris
8th June 2006, 01:37 PM
Hi All,

I'm a newby to the forum and would like to share the frustrations I have found.:(
I have been putting together a co - op of people to invest in a medium scale production facility for the past 3 - 4 months. We are looking at the southside of the river - all the big boys are to the north ! I have been investigating the "containerised plants" on the o/s market. I am totally blown away with the general wall of bs I have hit ! Pricing starts from 10K euro to 3 million euro to produce 20k litres a week. Many Aus operators have grabbed "agencies" from the european suppliers and provide little or no service to prospective clients. I have found this to be happening as these "agents" are setting up their own plants and/or trying to build a monopoly. All is fair in business but here comes another "petro monopoly"

The reason for us looking at the containerised systems is easy access to the European technology. Considering they are probably 10 years advanced over Aus. The whole idea behind these systems is to decentralise the production of biodiesel and make it an affordable product to the general public everywhere.

I had one "agent" try and tell me the market in Qld will be flooded and I would not be able to sell the stuff! What the ! Dude, sell me the plant, keep your marketing !:rolleyes:

We have looked at feed stock alternatives and the given up on used oil options (people or gettn gready !) and are importing our own oil extractors. We are now contracting seed feed stock.

After my little winge, has anyone had any dealings with "Containerised" systems?
I think I will have to learn to weld ! If you guys and make plants from old hot water systems, I could make something myself on a larger scale !

Also anyone know anything about new gov regs coming in July :eek: ?

Anyone heard anything about this new microreactor developed or is it bs ?
The size of a credit card and not chemicals needed.
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Hi all
My first post here a bit new at this so may be I will ask for a bit of leeway
OK The Europeans certainly have the Containerised game pretty well sushed out, However It has been my experince that they will price their units on a 4 year pay back on the savings In other words whatever you save in manufacturing bio diesel for the first 4 years it goes to the cost of the plant
The process is not that difficult as it is well established in the soap making industry (no we dont want to make soap) in regards to esterifiyng any kind of oil which is what we do when we make biodiesel
I have found that the US patents office to be a very good source of knowledge in the different ways of achiving that even though the site is a bit tricky to get to the info that you are looking for
Now I am not suggesting that one infringes patent rights but as any one knows patents have a finite life and some of them have expired so there is no problem I have gone down that path and I share your views I have tracked down a unit that is manufactured here in Aus as well for the sum of $ 6,000 which consisted of two 44 Gallon drums and a plastic methoxide injection tank as well as a row of valves and a pump It did do make biodiesel i thought it was more like $1,500.00 for what it was
So just like you I am going down the path of gathering the necessarry information for the fabrication of a reasonable size plant
I will post my links into some very wortwhile sites and some patent extracts with drawings once I learn how to do it I am getting a bit of "how" in a day or two by a "computer geek"
Cheers
Chris
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Sauman
8th June 2006, 04:54 PM
Hi Chris,
You are right that patents have a finite life and all that.
In the case of Bio Diesel unless one goes to make stuff on a commercial basis and to the country standard(ASTM,etc) simple home assemble systems are good enough.There is enough material out for a handyman to fabricate a small unit.
Just to let you know that Oily in this forum has designed and fabricated a unit which he is selling for $1500 and gst.Worth giving him a shout.

With regards to commercial units I must share a bit of information .This based on my research along with a few other oil technologists around the world(don't take me to court for this).

Of all the hype in the world about batch and continuous plants.It is found that for any commercial venture.
Upto 15,000tons per year A Batch plant is recommended
Anything more one should go for a continuous plant.However continuos plants have a problem.The centrifuges that are presently available in the market designed mainly for other applications and effective seperation happens only in those designs that are 50tons per hour or more.Which means that to make a continuos plant feasable one has to go for a 50tons per hour unit at least.Smaller size centrifuges do not work.A lot of work is being done at equipment manufactures ,unis and R& D institutions worldwide to design a smaller size or smaller size centrifuges that can economically do the seperation.

With reagrds to micro reactors.We all knwo that micro or nano reactors which is the future of process Industry is still in it's infancy.Exhorbitantly expensive till and technology is yet to be streamlined.Maybe in 10 years we will have micro reactors like micro waves in our homes processing all your chemical needs.Till then....we improving.
cheers
sauman

Tubby
9th June 2006, 12:34 PM
Has anyone had anything to do with Bioking ? Equipment looks ok but service is non-existent. The web site changes at least once a week and the prices go up and down all the time. I have been trying to get info from the Australian agent but they don't seem to want to sell anything, it is now a month since I first contacted them !


Anyone thought of using an old milk vat or brewery reaction chamber to mix and heat with ?

Sauman
9th June 2006, 06:17 PM
Hi Tubby
I have had dealings though not directly with Bio King.
There centrifuge design erked my attention as I wanted to look into incorporating them in small continuos plant designs.
But as you rightly mentioned service and knowledge level of agents is much to be desired.
We even offered them to represent them in Asia should they accept a few pre conditions.No reply yet. is
Even there heat exchanger looks crash hot.But haven't been yet able to get a spec sheet out of em.Guess netherlands is to far off and Europe is their focus market.
Cheers
Sauman

Chris
9th June 2006, 08:09 PM
Hi Chris,
You are right that patents have a finite life and all that.
sauman
Hello again
As you rightly said micro units have a long way to go and the continious process is again viable on a certain tonnage throughput per annum or whatever period before it makes economic sense There is another way that I am of the view will pay sooner It what is reffered to as a continious batch There are a number of proponents on this One of them is oekotek in germany as well as savoia in Argentina both of these guys have a pressurised reactor vessel.
From the information I have gleaned mainly reading between the lines as well as extensive reasearch on the various processes available I think it goes something like this
1. The tank is charged with the right amount of raw material
2.The oil is heated to a temperature high enough while is stirred to get rid of any moisture
3.While this is taking place the compressor, a dry air one is used to create a negative pressure into the reactor vessel in effect lowering the boiling point of water which has a positive side on the amount of energy used as well as cutting down the drying time Water under lower pressure will boil at a lower temperature the opposite to a spring loaded radiator cap in any motor car nowdays
4.Once a certain temperature is reached (I would guess based on time) since the volume of the reactor tank is known as well as the capacity of the vacuum come air compressor the oil should be free of any water the pump is stoped
5.Since the tank is now under negative pressure the Methoxide mixture already prepared in a seperate vessel is sucked in to the tank from the bottom of the reaction tank through some kind of a disperser like a a ring with lots of small holes so as to ensure dispersion of the methoxide through the oil
6.The air pump is then reversed so as to place the vessel under pressure while the material is continiously stirred for about an hour
7. The stirring is stoped and phase seperation takes place quite rapidly (I have read in as little as ten minutes and as much as an hour)
8. Once phase seperation is completed and while that tank is still under pressure a timed discharge of the glycerin takes place from the bottom of the tank, once again that can be done since the volumes are known as well as the pressure within the tank as is the volume flow out of the discharge point
9. The reactor would now contain biodiesel that can be pumped out through a filter to another tank for further treatment and the process repeated
So if we are to take some arbitary numbers this is how it can look:
Say a reactor capacity of 300 liters
and using the formula of:
MeOH=0.225xOIL KOH=OIL/100
Where:Oil=amount of oil in litres
MeOH=amount of methanol needed in litres
KOH= amount of potassium hydroxide required in kg
As a rule a qty of 1.1% of KOH is used and the methanol is chemically speaking 100% in excess on a molar ratio basis of 6:1 to the amount of oil
In simple terms we need to have more alcohol atoms to combine with the oil to get a methyl ester
So from the above with a charge of 80% capacity into the reactor and assuming complete reaction without any of our oil been saponified (making soap is almost the same process) or turning into an emulsion (Water in the process will do that) we can get 80% of biodiesel out of our charge in the reactor every hour and a half or so the remainder 20% being the glycerine
If we pump the diesel into a holding tank to settle out it is obvious that we can produce a fair qty of biodiesel per day, as an educated guess about 1000 litres in a long day would be quite feasable and that is with a relatively small tank
The above are my observations and are here for discussion additions etc
so please keep that in mind,having made that note I will now carry on and say a bit more
My reasearch so far has thrown up a lot of good things as well as some questions that I am still in the process of getting the answers
But here are some of the pluses in the closed reactor vessel
1.Oil can be heated under a partial vacuum and dried so as to prevent emulsions forming and ensure conversion
2.The transfer of the methoxide into the reactor vessel is done by default eliminating the handling of a rather nasty product
3.Methanol recovery can be done quite simply and quickly by adding a simple condensor into the evacuation side of the air pump, quickly due to the lower boiling point of Alcohol it should boil out of the biodiesel as a gas in the space remaining in the top of the reactor once the pressure drops
4.The Glycerine can also be discharged again without pumps, as it can be done while the vessel is under pressure
5.Washing of the biodiesel with water can be done within the same vessel allowed to settle and by putting the system through the same cycle again a clean dry and waterless biodiesel will be obtained
5.The system can be used with Ethyl alcohol which will produce a better more "beningn to the enviromentIt" fuel
6.It will also get rid of the very dangerous material Methyl which is absorbed through the skin and forms a poison,This is to be noted by all
Of course the Ethanol process has its own issues it should 200 proof and it needs all the water removed 100% things not that hard to overcome
Now here some of the curly ones that I am still looking into:
In some closed heated and pressurised reactors they do two reactions Once the first reaction is completed a vigorous stirring of the material is carried out and a further 5% of Metanol without the KOH is injected into the vessel the idea is that any oil that has not converted into an ester in the first step will do so in the second The university of Idaho has been engaged in biodiesel resarch since the 80's they say that conversion is also dependant in the type of oil used as well as the catalyst end the type of alcohol used to esterify the oil
So far from scientific research into the matter I have not seen anything better than 97.5% for methanol based reaction and 94.3% for ethanol based reactions So how these claims of 100% conversions of the oil in the esterification are made without qualification I am yet to establish
Another example, Savoia in Argentina produces a reactor and has sold a no of units no washing of the biodiesel whatsoever there Rodolfo the inventor of the device has been engaged in a a number of forums as to why not wash
He has a few valid points such as any remainning alchol in the finished biodiesel will only improve combustability as it will brake down under compression in the engine and release Hydrogen I agree with him on that the addition of straght ethanol as done by the bus companies in Sydney bears wittness to that
The question was put to him as to what happens to the KOH which is only a catalyst which is in suspension within the finished product he says that the 1.1% is so minute that it would not matter
The jury is still out on this one and so am I
It also seems that Oekotek in Germany appear to have a very simmilar aproach as described above but the do TWO washes This process is also well known About 5% water is added into the reactor after phase seperation has occured but before the glycerin is removed and a vigorus stirring is given to the material This has the effect of pulling out any glycerol in suspension within the oil Once it settles out (3 layers now) the glycerin and the water is drained out and a further qty of about 28% of water is sprayed into the vessel and allowed to seep through When it settles out a very slow stiring takes place and air is pumped into the water phase of the tank through a bubler for about an hour The water is then removed and the biodiesel is heated and dried under a partial vacuum then through a cooler filtered and stored ready for use
Now it appears to me that a combination of the above mentioned methodolgies and systems can adapted
Any competent metal fabricator can "bolt" a system tioghether that will most likely do the job at a far lower cost
By the way there is a very good description of a reactor that uses some of the concepts described here as well as photos and construction details
take a look http://www.nonprofitfuel.ca/Reactor.html
It is my considered view that this device will form a very good platform for a first stage in a small way although not useless where one can "ground his teeth" with the view of up-scaling later Please read the licensing conditions carefully,commercial use is not on The inventor/author should be contacted if that is the case
Finnally here are the links that will get you to the Savoia site http://www.savoiapower.com/biodiesel.html and Oekotek http://www.oekotec.ibg-monforts.de/bio-e/030.html
Just as a matter of interest this guy at Savoia has also sold us here in Australia a NUCLEAR reactor when i read it on his site I could not believe it I nearly fell out of my chair when I read it here we are looking into ways to look after the place by using a renewable resource as fuel and some one here in this country buys a bloody nuclear reactor
Any way,
Hopefully the above may be of some help to you and others and I will be happy to elaborate on points that may be not clear I have assumed that the reader will have a basic understanding of the methodology used in making biodiesel and have a basic grasp of high school chemistry
Buy for now
Chris
PS This thing is limited to 10000 characters and I had to chop a few things out I will have to learn how to do a "Sticky" or may be some one can help me out here

Chris
9th June 2006, 09:11 PM
Hi Chris,
You are right that patents have a finite life and all that.
In the case of Bio Diesel unless one goes to make stuff on a commercial basis and to the country standard(ASTM,etc) simple home assemble systems are good enough.There is enough material out for a handyman to fabricate a small unit.
Just to let you know that Oily in this forum has designed and fabricated a unit which he is selling for $1500 and gst.Worth giving him a shout.

With regards to commercial units I must share a bit of information .This based on my research along with a few other oil technologists around the world(don't take me to court for this).

Of all the hype in the world about batch and continuous plants.It is found that for any commercial venture.
Upto 15,000tons per year A Batch plant is recommended
Anything more one should go for a continuous plant.However continuos plants have a problem.The centrifuges that are presently available in the market designed mainly for other applications and effective seperation happens only in those designs that are 50tons per hour or more.Which means that to make a continuos plant feasable one has to go for a 50tons per hour unit at least.Smaller size centrifuges do not work.A lot of work is being done at equipment manufactures ,unis and R& D institutions worldwide to design a smaller size or smaller size centrifuges that can economically do the seperation.

With reagrds to micro reactors.We all knwo that micro or nano reactors which is the future of process Industry is still in it's infancy.Exhorbitantly expensive till and technology is yet to be streamlined.Maybe in 10 years we will have micro reactors like micro waves in our homes processing all your chemical needs.Till then....we improving.
cheers
sauman
Hi there again
I have already posted a rather long essay? However I missed a direct reply to some points raised by you
The centrifuge issue is a curly one and you are quite right Have you had a look into a devise called a Hydrocyclone it may be worth you while We have a manufacturer here in Aus that makes these things They are used extensively in the mining industry just to do that he has e very interesting web site with a fair bit of info as well as photos here is the link http://www.concordeng.com.au/cyclones/index.shtml I have spoken to these guys and they are very helpfull He quoted about $800 for the 68 mm model so it is not a prohibitive item to have a crack at
On another point as well is the question of using dairy tanks I can see issues with that It seems to me that succesfull biodiesel tanks weather they are at atmospheric or under pressure appear to be on a ratio of 3.5 to 1 in other words they should be 3.5 times in height to the diameter of the vessel
The reason for that is the mixing can be achieved much more thoroughly as well as the dispersion of the methoxide in the oil will be better in a narrow and higher column
If the the methoxide is injected into the bottom of the reactor it will most likely rise through the oil if the temperature of the oil is around 60 c and the stirrer is on so much the better
An ideal vessel would be an old autoclave These come in various sizes from baby ones to monsters They are used in hospitals to sterilise equipment as well as in the food industry to prepare canned and plastic pouch foods
Since they are invariably under pressure by steam when they are used in their normal role they are constructed with very thick walls to take the pressure they would make ideal reactors for biodiesel Invariably they are made from stainless steel
Of course they need to be vertical for biodiesel rather then the horizontal form that they are normaly so some cutting and welding would be required to put them into use
You come accross them in second hand machinery dealers yards as well as scrap metal yards If you come across one that has an external water jacket so much the better You may then burn your biodiesel to heat up the water to provide the necessarry heat for the reactor
Another link that may be of interest to you is http://www.crduk.com/Products_OF%20Large.html these guys have a very revolutionry continious mixer Dont ask me what they want for it as i am scared to ask Still is quite an interesting and novel idea
So much for now
Chris

Chris
9th June 2006, 10:23 PM
Has anyone had anything to do with Bioking ? Equipment looks ok but service is non-existent. The web site changes at least once a week and the prices go up and down all the time. I have been trying to get info from the Australian agent but they don't seem to want to sell anything, it is now a month since I first contacted them !


Anyone thought of using an old milk vat or brewery reaction chamber to mix and heat with ?
Hi tubby
Have a look at my comments in sauman's post regarding milk vats etc
By the way if you have made inquiries to bioking for the HDPE processor the have droped out of the production of those units entirely and without giving reason have a look at the news section on the following link as well as the prices from another mob in holland I think http://www.biodys.com/biodiesel_processor_pricing.php

Cheers
Chris

Sauman
9th June 2006, 11:55 PM
Hi Chris
Thanks for sharing.Good to see another person of the same view.I think there are two issues to be considered.
Home brew Bio Diesel and commercial BD production.
You are right vaccum (ejector booster system...is the simplest device).
We have designed the plant dynamics a bit differently for commercial unity.There are mainly 3 sections.
Pretreatment where we degumm the feed stock and bleach using activet carbon or earth.
Then the second pretreatment section is actually refining the oil and removing the fatty acids again accelerated by vacum system.
The final stage is transesterification in two stages under vacum which removes in two stages the glycerine (easy to do under vacum) and then goes to the drying stage which is under vacum so faster drying and effective drying.This process makes Bio To any standards.Has about .05% by vol.max of dissovelved water and sediment content.
Recovery is 98% Bio Diesel .
The process can be further fine tuned if we had a lower range centrifuge.In fact I am evaluating various micro centrifuges then the degumming,refining and final seperation of wash and BD can be done in a much simpler manner.But the lower capacity ones don't work.
I have had a look and experimented with cyclone seperators(cyclones).Even adventured with higher differential pressure but they don't work instead of the Industry norm of 0.8bar between entry and outlet.
I know centrifuge is the answer .....anyone here has experience with centrifuges in the vegetable Oil Industry who could give me a better insight. I have looked at stuff from penwalt,westfalia,alfa lava...a few other is Brazil and south africa.All were disasters.

Lets keep brainstorming ad exchanging.
Cheers
Sauman

Tubby
10th June 2006, 10:55 AM
Hi Guy's

Good to see some great info flowing !
Had a look at a couple of the "plastic" reactor - ok for home use. There has been some comments on why Bioking dropped the line - bit hard to find the truth ! The containerised plants look good but they change the specs and pricing weekly !

Have you guy's looked at "magnsol" (I think thats how it was spelt !) for washing - need to filter it after but there is a company in uk that has some great filtering systems - will try and find links. This then leaves a residual by product.

Also - the great sugar debate - there are some guy's in the US/Japan playing with a carbonised sugar catalyst ? This would be great for Aus ready avail base product and no methanal, koh and no waste products (glycerol)!

I have also found a couple of other equipment suppliers, will post links. Very hard to get info and pricing, Aus seems to still be the convict outpost for many !

Tubby

Chris
11th June 2006, 04:16 PM
Hi Chris
Thanks for sharing.Good to see another person of the same view.I think there are two issues to be considered.
Home brew Bio Diesel and commercial BD production.
You are right vaccum (ejector booster system...is the simplest device).
We have designed the plant dynamics a bit differently for commercial unity.There are mainly 3 sections.
Pretreatment where we degumm the feed stock and bleach using activet carbon or earth.
Then the second pretreatment section is actually refining the oil and removing the fatty acids again accelerated by vacum system.
The final stage is transesterification in two stages under vacum which removes in two stages the glycerine (easy to do under vacum) and then goes to the drying stage which is under vacum so faster drying and effective drying.This process makes Bio To any standards.Has about .05% by vol.max of dissovelved water and sediment content.
Recovery is 98% Bio Diesel .
The process can be further fine tuned if we had a lower range centrifuge.In fact I am evaluating various micro centrifuges then the degumming,refining and final seperation of wash and BD can be done in a much simpler manner.But the lower capacity ones don't work.
I have had a look and experimented with cyclone seperators(cyclones).Even adventured with higher differential pressure but they don't work instead of the Industry norm of 0.8bar between entry and outlet.
I know centrifuge is the answer .....anyone here has experience with centrifuges in the vegetable Oil Industry who could give me a better insight. I have looked at stuff from penwalt,westfalia,alfa lava...a few other is Brazil and south africa.All were disasters.

Lets keep brainstorming ad exchanging.
Cheers
Sauman
Hi there Sauman
You and I are in furious agreement I would like to explore the Hydrcyclone issue some more I should be able to report in a few weeks with some hands on experience We anticipated to enclose the urethane cyclone in a metal casing so it contains the fragments of the device in case it disintegrates while we push the bio through a multi stage pump hooked to a speed controller
We anticipate starting at say 60% of rated speed of the two pole motor that drives the pump up to 130% available from the invertor which will provide about 3700 rpm We have calculated that we should be able to get the pressure differential necessary so separation takes place (Dont hold me to this though we are in the hands of the gods on this one)
In respect to fugals as they are commonly referred to there is small unit depicted in one of the suppliers sites for EU 25,000 no details of its performance are included just a photo it seems to be some kind of a combination device hard to tell They referred to it as a biodiesel separator here is the link http://www.biodys.com/biodiesel_processor_pricing.php
Interesting how these guys round up all the prices to what they believe is what the market would bear it leaves me wondering
Will stay tuned
Chris

Chris
11th June 2006, 06:35 PM
Hi Guy's

Good to see some great info flowing !
Had a look at a couple of the "plastic" reactor - ok for home use. There has been some comments on why Bioking dropped the line - bit hard to find the truth ! The containerised plants look good but they change the specs and pricing weekly !

Have you guy's looked at "magnsol" (I think thats how it was spelt !) for washing - need to filter it after but there is a company in uk that has some great filtering systems - will try and find links. This then leaves a residual by product.

Also - the great sugar debate - there are some guy's in the US/Japan playing with a carbonised sugar catalyst ? This would be great for Aus ready avail base product and no methanal, koh and no waste products (glycerol)!

I have also found a couple of other equipment suppliers, will post links. Very hard to get info and pricing, Aus seems to still be the convict outpost for many !

Tubby
Hi Tubby
I have no information at all on the carbonised sugar bit you are refering to above can you dig up some info a link would be great
The stuff you are refering to is Magnesium Silicate as well as Aluminium hydro silicate it has a huge surface area per gram about 250-300 sqm/g it will absorb water as well as other hydrated impurities in the oil There are a no of these mixtures around by different names Vermiculate as well as Zeolite will work just as good as well as Silica gell all of which can also be re used if you dry them out first Vermiculate can be purchased easily from wholesale nursury goods suppliers Zeolite from any Organic farm supply joints they would also be able to supply Vermiculite if you ask them They are relatively low cost as against what you have to pay Both of these products can be used as a "bed filter" in the bottom of your tank in other words a layer of say 2-3 inches in the botom of your tank should be able to remove any moisture in the final biodiesel which may be in suspension as well as any "floaties" given that you have accomplished a good separation after your final wash and all of the wash water has settled out and it has been drained out first At the end of the day even though these materials do absorb as much as three to four times their own weight of water as you can appreciate there is a limit
Cheers
Chris

Steve-Kal
12th June 2006, 12:12 AM
Dear All,



I'm doing a Feasibility Study into starting a home plant (appleseed) and doing it honestly i.e. obtaining an excise license and paying the excise (38.14c/litre). The figures work out, as here in Kal (WA) we are paying $1.50 for dino diesel and the prices only get higher.



However, the goal would be to claim the cleaner fuels grant to recoup the excise costs. To do this I would need to verify the product met the Fuel Quality Standards Act 2000.



Q1 - Has anyone managed to get their home processed biodiesel to meet this standard?



Q2 - Is there a lab in WA that can test samples of my home biodiesel to verify conformance (or not) with the quality requirements of the act?



Q3 - Are there any home brewers out there that are paying excise and claiming the cleaner fuels grant?



I hope someone out there can help.



Regards,



Steve

glenos
12th June 2006, 11:11 AM
When I was looking for an oil press to buy I got in contact with IBG-Monfots (http://www.oekotec.ibg-monforts.de/en/index.html) in Germany and they sent me an email with a video of their containerised plants as well as a spreadsheet that did some sums for you.

I haven't looked at either of these in a year, but here they are. Just checked the spreadsheet and they start at $220k euro. :eek: See here (http://www.oekotec.ibg-monforts.de/bio-e/index.html) for info on their plants


Sorry I can't attach cos they are a .xls and a .wmv, the .wmv is 920kB, I tried to zip them but they are still too big.

Sauman
12th June 2006, 05:27 PM
Hi there Sauman
You and I are in furious agreement I would like to explore the Hydrcyclone issue some more I should be able to report in a few weeks with some hands on experience We anticipated to enclose the urethane cyclone in a metal casing so it contains the fragments of the device in case it disintegrates while we push the bio through a multi stage pump hooked to a speed controller
We anticipate starting at say 60% of rated speed of the two pole motor that drives the pump up to 130% available from the invertor which will provide about 3700 rpm We have calculated that we should be able to get the pressure differential necessary so separation takes place (Dont hold me to this though we are in the hands of the gods on this one)
In respect to fugals as they are commonly referred to there is small unit depicted in one of the suppliers sites for EU 25,000 no details of its performance are included just a photo it seems to be some kind of a combination device hard to tell They referred to it as a biodiesel separator here is the link http://www.biodys.com/biodiesel_processor_pricing.php
Interesting how these guys round up all the prices to what they believe is what the market would bear it leaves me wondering
Will stay tuned
Chris

Hi Chris,
The sepeartor they are talking about is the same one that Bio King gives as a part of their containerised plant package.C100000/MAB.At Eu 25,000 it is shocking.
You can pick up a top of the range Westfalia or Alfa Laval seperator(Mind you I had much luck with the small sized ones) for about half the prices.

I am excited about how you go with the Cylcone seperator.Did you know that you can get ones that are 304/316ss.Mechanical Seal Manufacturers have a on the self item.They have a option of having a ceramic insert .Used normally to remove particles from liquid being pumped in oil exploration scenario.

I am also looking at the possibilty of using "electro-adsoprtion".More when I have adequate material.
Fingers crossed on how you go with the cyclone.
All the best.

Cheers

Sauman

Tubby
13th June 2006, 11:17 AM
The cylone sep sounds good. The results will be interesting.

A couple of equip links below:

http://www.kcentrifuge.com/

http://www.fuelequipment.com/category28_1.htm

http://www.hydrotechnik.co.uk/Portable%20Filtration_biodiesel_cleanup_Buy.htm

http://www.svlele.com/technology.html (Sauman have you heard of these ?)

Sugar cat - http://forums.biodieselnow.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11965

I have requested specs for the seperator from biodys about 2 weeks ago and still no reply

Bioking sep went from 48k Euro to 29k euro over night!

Chris
13th June 2006, 11:24 AM
Dear All,


I'm doing a Feasibility Study into starting a home plant (appleseed) and doing it honestly i.e. obtaining an excise license and paying the excise (38.14c/litre). The figures work out, as here in Kal (WA) we are paying $1.50 for dino diesel and the prices only get higher.

However, the goal would be to claim the cleaner fuels grant to recoup the excise costs. To do this I would need to verify the product met the Fuel Quality Standards Act 2000.

Q1 - Has anyone managed to get their home processed biodiesel to meet this standard?

Q2 - Is there a lab in WA that can test samples of my home biodiesel to verify conformance (or not) with the quality requirements of the act?

Q3 - Are there any home brewers out there that are paying excise and claiming the cleaner fuels grant?

I hope someone out there can help.

Regards,


Steve

Hi there
This link will get you to a biodiesel testing lab in Aus as well as the required standard so have a look at it and see how you go http://www.itscb.com/newsitetest/services/au/biodieselaustralia.shtml
By the way from my point of view unless you standardise your process and stick to the same methodology as well as consistent raw material inputs you will have to have every one of your batches tested for conformation The clean air act allows a rebate of 16.5c per litre on vehicles over 4.5 tonne as well as convertiing costs etc this link will get you there as well you may have a good look in there http://www.greenhouse.gov.au/transport/afcp/index.html furthermore this is from the taxman that tells you your obligations http://ato.gov.au/content/downloads/nat9885-04-2004.pdf
Good luck

Chris
13th June 2006, 01:31 PM
The cylone sep sounds good. The results will be interesting.

A couple of equip links below:

http://www.kcentrifuge.com/

http://www.fuelequipment.com/category28_1.htm

http://www.hydrotechnik.co.uk/Portable%20Filtration_biodiesel_cleanup_Buy.htm

http://www.svlele.com/technology.html (Sauman have you heard of these ?)
Thanks for that Tubby
I have had a good look at these in the past I have spend quite a bit of time on the Sugar issue (Thanks again) it was something that I have missed It does look promising just like all of those solid catalyst It would great to avoid making soap and having to wash out the biodiesel By the way there is a lot of promise (with a pilot plant at a tonne per hour already running in Denmark) with Amine catalysts One that has shown promise is TMAH which is tetramethylammonium hydroxide I am looking into it as it seems to work at around 20C and the gurus tell me that you need to COOL the process rather then heating The assumption here is that you start with oil containing no water Here is the link http://www.daka.dk/page73.asp
These guys at Bio King are at the monte carlo casino to often
Cheers
Chris

Sauman
13th June 2006, 04:21 PM
Hi Chris
I sure have heard about Mr.Lele's work.
He is also involved like me in dveloping micro economies.Quiet a guy from what I have heard in the Industry.Has been involved with BD development in India for a decade.
Thanks for the links on centrifuges .
Penwalt is a Indian mob making centrifuges.
How did the hydrocylcone go?
I know the process they are talking about.In fact one of the scientist in our group had undergone a R&D project with them.
We looked at the cost economics and unfortunately it makes no commercial sence.
The plant has a continuos deouderiser,a continuos distillation column,a recycle of amino alcohol a hydrogenation section,...all $$$$$+heaps of instrumentation.
It indeed is a better process which is bit utility heavy.
So there you go.
Wish I could get hold of the Bio King guys.Never been to Monte Carlo.
But then a peasent here.Leave the laundering to the Kings I guess.

Cheers

Sauman

dgb
13th June 2006, 05:21 PM
Hi there Sauman
You and I are in furious agreement I would like to explore the Hydrcyclone issue some more I should be able to report in a few weeks with some hands on experience We anticipated to enclose the urethane cyclone in a metal casing so it contains the fragments of the device in case it disintegrates while we push the bio through a multi stage pump hooked to a speed controller
We anticipate starting at say 60% of rated speed of the two pole motor that drives the pump up to 130% available from the invertor which will provide about 3700 rpm We have calculated that we should be able to get the pressure differential necessary so separation takes place (Dont hold me to this though we are in the hands of the gods on this one)
In respect to fugals as they are commonly referred to there is small unit depicted in one of the suppliers sites for EU 25,000 no details of its performance are included just a photo it seems to be some kind of a combination device hard to tell They referred to it as a biodiesel separator here is the link http://www.biodys.com/biodiesel_processor_pricing.php
Interesting how these guys round up all the prices to what they believe is what the market would bear it leaves me wondering
Will stay tuned
Chris

Hello Chris, Tubby, Sauman,

I came accross this discussion while examining links that link to our site.
Let me clear up a few things.

We have chosen not to disclose detailed information about our products on the website because of the competition visiting every day for new ideas. If you are interested in the separator or detailed information about the other products, the quickest way to get it is by visiting our website and fill out the customer form. If you have already done so and did not receive a reply, please let me know.

The separator is an OEM Alfa Laval unit rated by AL at 800l/hr, but capable of 2000l/hr throughput. It's a new model specially designed for biodiesel separation. You can buy it at Alfa Laval as well for the same price, which is the normal going price for this product. Alfa Laval does have a less expensive unit, but it has aluminium and brass parts, and features a normal motor which we prefer not to sell for applications where methanol is involved. The MAB however complies to Atex Zone IIa specs for continuous operation in such hazardous environments. And yes, it's more expensive than the entry-level separators. We are looking at a less expensive model right now at ~ 100l/hour featuring the right components for this application.

You will find refurbished older models from Alfa Laval at other suppliers which change pricing overnight depending on the model available. If you decide to buy such a product, make sure it has an exproof motor and you get what is advertised.

Tubby, can you let me know when you asked for information about the separator so I can see what went wrong on our side? I assumed you filled out the customer form? In a few occasions the mysql server may have been down. All known inquiries on separators have been answered by us and in one case transferred to a distributor in Spain. Where did you post from?

Best regards,

Dimitri Georganas
Biodys

Tubby
14th June 2006, 11:33 AM
Here's another link for centrifuges

http://www.cadence.com.au/directory/Business/Industrial_Goods_and_Services/Machinery_and_Tools/Process_Equipment/Separators/Centrifuges/

Chris
14th June 2006, 12:16 PM
Hello Chris, Tubby, Sauman,

I came accross this discussion while examining links that link to our site.
Let me clear up a few things.

We have chosen not to disclose detailed information about our products on the website because of the competition visiting every day for new ideas. If you are interested in the separator or detailed information about the other products, the quickest way to get it is by visiting our website and fill out the customer form. If you have already done so and did not receive a reply, please let me know.

The separator is an OEM Alfa Laval unit rated by AL at 800l/hr, but capable of 2000l/hr throughput. It's a new model specially designed for biodiesel separation. You can buy it at Alfa Laval as well for the same price, which is the normal going price for this product. Alfa Laval does have a less expensive unit, but it has aluminium and brass parts, and features a normal motor which we prefer not to sell for applications where methanol is involved. The MAB however complies to Atex Zone IIa specs for continuous operation in such hazardous environments. And yes, it's more expensive than the entry-level separators. We are looking at a less expensive model right now at ~ 100l/hour featuring the right components for this application.

You will find refurbished older models from Alfa Laval at other suppliers which change pricing overnight depending on the model available. If you decide to buy such a product, make sure it has an exproof motor and you get what is advertised.

Tubby, can you let me know when you asked for information about the separator so I can see what went wrong on our side? I assumed you filled out the customer form? In a few occasions the mysql server may have been down. All known inquiries on separators have been answered by us and in one case transferred to a distributor in Spain. Where did you post from?

Best regards,

Dimitri Georganas
Biodys
Hi Dimitrios
Thank you for the reply It is good to see you still have an interest in the biodiesel concept besides the commercial aspect to bother with us in this forum I will stay in tune in regards to this new fugal you are refering to, my email add is: indmills at optus home.com.au replace the at with @ and no spaces please this keeps the spamers at bay
I would be pleased to get some specs on the existing fugal as well as the proposed model
Thank you
Chris

Chris
14th June 2006, 01:40 PM
Hi Chris
I sure have heard about Mr.Lele's work.
He is also involved like me in dveloping micro economies.Quiet a guy from what I have heard in the Industry.Has been involved with BD development in India for a decade.
Thanks for the links on centrifuges .
Penwalt is a Indian mob making centrifuges.
How did the hydrocylcone go?
I know the process they are talking about.In fact one of the scientist in our group had undergone a R&D project with them.
We looked at the cost economics and unfortunately it makes no commercial sence.
The plant has a continuos deouderiser,a continuos distillation column,a recycle of amino alcohol a hydrogenation section,...all $$$$$+heaps of instrumentation.
It indeed is a better process which is bit utility heavy.
So there you go.
Wish I could get hold of the Bio King guys.Never been to Monte Carlo.
But then a peasent here.Leave the laundering to the Kings I guess.

Cheers

Sauman
Hi Sauman
Thank you for that feedback This is what is really good about this forum It stops people going down a path that seems promising on paper Its like meeting some lady in a dark bar with the beer goggles on "What looks good by candlelight may not be so good by sunlight" Sometimes the sun don't shine for a while "excersise in futility"
Once again we are in agreement that it is a better process since no N or K is involved therfore no saponification Your comment about utility heavy is interesting The article in Ind.Eng.Chem. did not mention hydrogenation I can appreciate the deodoriser though these guys use Mink oil it stinks I may have to look at the tech paper again Initially it seem to me that TMAH at 25% strength solution in methanol to do the trick would be left behind Recovery of alcohol via a condensor is not really an issue I thought that one could recycle the Alcohol back into the feed line so as to maintain the excess on an ongoing basis It seems to me that a reaction time of 15 minutes at 65C with all the tri g's converted had some appeal especially according to the reasearch if no di's are found and less than 2% mono's remaining Furthermore the ratio of the Methanolysis of Canola at a molar ratio 72:25:3 seems quite good, that is oil,MeOH,TMAH Now at 65 C in a slightly pressurised vessel such as you depict would be quite easy to recover the alcohol on an ongoing basis or at the end of the reaction At the end of the day why would you bother recovering the MeOH anyway it is a small component All the same thanks for the feedback
Keep it Up
Cheers

Chris
14th June 2006, 07:51 PM
Here's another link for centrifuges

http://www.cadence.com.au/directory/Business/Industrial_Goods_and_Services/Machinery_and_Tools/Process_Equipment/Separators/Centrifuges/
Hi Tubby, you to Sauman
Have a look at my reply to Sauman tubby there may be something in this I really want to see if there is any legs to it any input from others will be good
Here is a link for centrifuges that seems promising ther is a fair choice there http://www.aaronequipment.com/categories.asp?categoryId=7 if you click on the choice bar for different categories you will get a fair collection to investgate
By the way Sauman these guys have a fiar colections of reactors as well have a peep
Cheers
Chris

Sauman
14th June 2006, 10:08 PM
Hi Tubby, you to Sauman
Have a look at my reply to Sauman tubby there may be something in this I really want to see if there is any legs to it any input from others will be good
Here is a link for centrifuges that seems promising ther is a fair choice there http://www.aaronequipment.com/categories.asp?categoryId=7 if you click on the choice bar for different categories you will get a fair collection to investgate
By the way Sauman these guys have a fiar colections of reactors as well have a peep
Cheers
Chris

Hi Chris & Tubby
Thanks and cheers.
Will have a peep and share if anything crops up.
We will get there together.

How did the cylcones go Chris?

For that would be a real cheapo option.
All the best.

Cheers
Sauman

Tubby
15th June 2006, 10:55 AM
Hi Dimitri -Biodys,
Thanks for the input - I received a mail from your company on the 13/6 - Thanks - I will fill out the Q & A form and return. In this email it was indicated that the separator is only sold as part of a complete system - is this correct?

Chris
15th June 2006, 12:57 PM
Hi Chris & Tubby
Thanks and cheers.
Will have a peep and share if anything crops up.
We will get there together.

How did the cylcones go Chris?

For that would be a real cheapo option.
All the best.

Cheers
Sauman
Hi Sauman
Was Rome built in a day? (Joke) We are still mucking around we have not had a crack at it, nothing to report Had a bit of a delay with other pressing matters The priorities have shifted Nevertheless we are pursuing it
Just by the way Sauman I am quite sure that a good old cream separator used in a dairy operation would most likely do the trick The principle is exactly the same and I have a suspision that I come across an Indian manufacturer in the past that made them fairly cheaply He was located somewhere up in the Punjab near Jalanda I am sure you can track him down
It was a rather antiquated design hand operated job but it did the job well I think for a trial it would be ok with the addition of a pulley and an electric motor with a variable speed drive control would not be a hard thing to do If it does not do the trick I am sure you can still sell it to a farmer at a discount and he wil get an electric one for the price of a manual job
Have a think about that
I think he was asking some $300-400 each for them See how you go
Stay in touch
Cheers
Chris

Sauman
15th June 2006, 04:36 PM
Hi Chris
The good old cream sepeartor sure does the job.In fact that was the first item we used on a pilot sacle model.
The quality of seperation isn't to bad.And the BD is just about fine.Specially for the rural scenario here in India.
But once we kinda go into commercial production the cost of the sepaerators like Westfalia and others becomes a big factor.
I think all these guys should come to the party and looking at the size of the market worldwide and significantly reduce the cost.In fact use multilocation manufaturing .You know what I mean.

And you are so very right.Rome wasn't built in a day.

We can only build it together.
Take care and sure thing...keep in touch...

Cheers
Sauman
Or is it they just wanna make more.

Chris
24th June 2006, 10:29 PM
Hi Chris
The good old cream sepeartor sure does the job.In fact that was the first item we used on a pilot sacle model.
The quality of seperation isn't to bad.And the BD is just about fine.Specially for the rural scenario here in India.
But once we kinda go into commercial production the cost of the sepaerators like Westfalia and others becomes a big factor.
I think all these guys should come to the party and looking at the size of the market worldwide and significantly reduce the cost.In fact use multilocation manufaturing .You know what I mean.

And you are so very right.Rome wasn't built in a day.

We can only build it together.
Take care and sure thing...keep in touch...

Cheers
Sauman
Or is it they just wanna make more.
Hey there Sauman
Mate have a look at this link and have a look at what they call bioclean down the list I have asked for some specs from them but you may know something about it At that speed aand the price they are talking about it may be a goer http://www.biofuels-sa.com/wst_page4.html I also want feedback as you allways do Have you heard from tubby he has been quite

Cheers
Chris

Sauman
27th June 2006, 07:26 PM
Hey there Sauman
Mate have a look at this link and have a look at what they call bioclean down the list I have asked for some specs from them but you may know something about it At that speed aand the price they are talking about it may be a goer http://www.biofuels-sa.com/wst_page4.html I also want feedback as you allways do Have you heard from tubby he has been quite

Cheers
Chris

Hi Chris
Been very very busy mate.Also relocating to Delhi this week.Haven't had a chance to do much really.The seperator looks cool.Let us know if you get more info.Also did you get the plant layout that I sent you and dan?
Have a great week.

Cheers
Sauman

Chris
30th June 2006, 07:31 PM
Hi Chris
Been very very busy mate.Also relocating to Delhi this week.Haven't had a chance to do much really.The seperator looks cool.Let us know if you get more info.Also did you get the plant layout that I sent you and dan?
Have a great week.

Cheers
Sauman
Hi Sauman
Been a bit snowed under myself How is Dehli? No info as yet, The hydrocyclone experiment is still on the drawing board Got the plan, on the back burner at the present may be another week or so will be back into it
Posted a note to see what interest is there for biodiesel Started a new thread, Had to edit it as it did not get any response Don't know if the people that are looking at the site are visitors that just want an address May be I just do it any way and see what happens What is your view Tubby has gone quite he must be busy as well As you said, Hobby....etc
Have a good one
Cheers
Chris

Chris
30th June 2006, 07:41 PM
Tubby
Had a good look at the sugar catalyst thing again It appears that the only success this guy in Britain had was with the stuff that cooked on the tin itself as he has not been able to repeat the process again He works in a laboratory so he has access to good gear as well as knowledge, besides as he says he is sourounded by industrial chemists So here we are
There are suggestions that there was some tin oxide in the "burned" sugar which was the thing that did the trick as well as other suggestions etc In other words it worked once for some reason the guy is having a crack at it again I am watching it closely but it seems to be a trial and error job at the moment, as promising as everything else that is on the drawing board I suppose
Will stay in touch
Cheers
Chris