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  • Worse than fossil fuel

    Biodiesel enthusiasts have accidentally invented the most carbon-intensive fuel on earth...

    This is a worrying intro to a story. And it doesn't get any better.....

    Read more...
    http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005...fuel/#more-964
    Joe Morgan
    Brisbane Biodiesel Site Admin
    http://www.brisbanebiodiesel.com

    Searching tips using Google - SVO Dual tank systems
    SVO, Common Rail and Direct Injection - Vehicles converted to Used Cooking Oil

  • #2
    Re: Worse than fossil fuel

    Originally posted by joe
    Biodiesel enthusiasts have accidentally invented the most carbon-intensive fuel on earth...
    Joe

    If I am reading this correctly then this is only to do with Palm Oil production and not Biodiesel.

    If this is the case then it is our responsibilty to the World not to make Biodiesel from new Palm Oil....
    HDJ80 (aka Kiwipete)
    Canberra

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Worse than fossil fuel

      So many points to start discrediting, it is hard to know where to start. As for the "competing with food supply for arable land" would be true if farmers used all their land, which they dont, as the "bottom would fall out of the market" for most things. If you want an example of the bottom falling out of a market, go price some wine grapes in Australia.
      The "most carbon intensive fuel" mainly details with setting up of the forest not the actual running of it. (they still wont be having peat drying out in 10 years time, nor burning wood).

      Some of the references in the article point to other articles written by the same guy! Hey I am a living legend! see reference one at the end of this for proof!

      There is no relevance to this story in Australia, unless you are importing palm oil.
      I think this is an attempt to make biodiesel seem less attractive, so people may use something else. What else? Fossil fuel. He even comments "Nigerian crude is less destructive".

      References
      I am a living legend, something I said earlier, and wrote down.
      cheers<BR>Chris.<BR>1990 landcruiser 80, 1HD-T two tank, copper pipe HE+ 20 plate FPHE, toyota solenoids and filters. 1978 300D, elsbett one tank system.<BR>

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Worse than fossil fuel

        It is expected that by the end of 2007, Aust production of biodiesel will have a shortfall of about 2ML of feedstock. The answer that producers are suggesting - import palm oil. Simple and cheap. (see the BAA Strategy Meeting 2006 thread in the industry forum).
        We need to be putting some pressure on our suppliers to ensure that if they use palm oil, it comes from sustainable sources that have not felled native rainforest etc. I know that ABG has been making some noise recently about acquiring palm plantations that are sustainably farmed and not the type discussed in this article.
        Robert.
        Site Admin.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Worse than fossil fuel

          I think this stuff is based apon a few misguided ideals, and erroneous mathematical statistics,, like for instance the idea that biodiesel can replace the present use of fossil fuel. With statistics we can prove anything outrageously frightening.
          No! biofuels are a transitional medium dampening the hard impact of peak oil, while we make a necessary total transition into renewables, and also growing that part of our brain which suggests " maybe today i only need my bicycle to do my errands" . If it wasn't for biofuels i simply would not own a car, and live with the limited transport i lived with before i discovered biofuels.
          In the eightenth century a statistician tabled in the british parliament " If a legislation on horse drawn hackney carriages having compulsory manure bags attached to the horses rear was not passed, by the end of the nineteenth century London would be under 150 feet of horse manure!!". That didn't happen, mankind made a transition into idustrialized transport.
          It took mankind one hundred years to make a transition from old world renewables, burning timber, to make the tools needed to mine coal, it took another hundred years to make the transition from burning coal to make the pipes and derricks to mine oil. Then we stopped making transitions because oil was so convenient. NOW we need the energy to make the next quantum leap to total modern renewables. To make turbines , to make photovoltaic cells, etc etc.We've done it before, we know how to do it. All we need to do is prove there's money in it for multinational corporations.
          And individuals need to realize they dont NEED to drive there car to the gym to workout. They need only walk to the gym, give the finger to gym proprietor, and RUN home.
          darren leonadas
          Senior Member
          Last edited by darren leonadas; 14 June 2006, 02:49 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Worse than fossil fuel

            Originally posted by Robert
            It is expected that by the end of 2007, Aust production of biodiesel will have a shortfall of about 2ML of feedstock. The answer that producers are suggesting - import palm oil. Simple and cheap. (see the BAA Strategy Meeting 2006 thread in the industry forum).
            We need to be putting some pressure on our suppliers to ensure that if they use palm oil, it comes from sustainable sources that have not felled native rainforest etc. I know that ABG has been making some noise recently about acquiring palm plantations that are sustainably farmed and not the type discussed in this article.
            Hi there
            The link at the end of this post may be of some general interest If you consider it worthwhile may be a sticky for these concerned people would be good I have been following the work of these scientists for a while now There seems to be a strong case for the points raised there It appears that the fossil fuel theory is a furphy These guys have some strong credentials I am old enough to remember the three times over the last 20 odd years when it was announced that the Bass Straight oil find will run out, it is still delivering Have we been fooled by those money grabbing petro moguls in cohorts with governments for all these years or am out on my own on this one? I have a suspicion that we are funding the war in Iraq
            There is no more dino oil produced today or less for that matter than has been in the last few years So why the price increase to the level they are today? Economist in the dino oil industry are telling the world that the oil produced in the Arab states cost about $2.95 US per barrel I have a lot of theories on this one most of them money related of course but getting the whole wide world to pay for the Iraqi war seems quite likely And if biofuels are what it takes for us to keep going shall be it The benefits to the environment via their use is sufficient besides the economic benefit to the individual. Here is the link, if nothing else it is fascinating http://www.gasresources.net/
            Cheers
            Chris
            Cheers
            Chris
            Never give up :)

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Worse than fossil fuel

              Originally posted by Chris
              Hi there
              I have a suspicion that we are funding the war in Iraq ........we indeed are Chris.Sad isn't it.But then we are Bush's buddies...buddy buddy.
              Cheers
              Chris
              But thats gonna end one day.As will dino oil. I am an optimist.
              Peace on earth.
              A clean green earth one day.Thats a simple dream....
              If we can dream it we can do it....walt disney...lets do it together...
              The humid weather in India takes it toll.
              Cheers
              Sauman

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Worse than fossil fuel

                I think this puts it into a better perspective

                http://wwwistp.murdoch.edu.au/public.../biodiesel.htm

                The other does not take when the carbon load was absorbed into consideration

                I could be wrong as I am newbie at this

                By the way love the site

                Shiner
                shiner
                Donating Member
                Last edited by shiner; 24 June 2006, 05:42 PM.
                Diagonally parked in a parallel universe

                ppythonsss@yahoo.com.au

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Worse than fossil fuel

                  Regarding the article by George Monbiot
                  Worse Than Fossil Fuel

                  December 6th, 2005 in climate change, oil
                  Although Monbiot is RIGHT regarding Biodiesel Feedstock Crops should not come from land that could be used for food crops.
                  However, some other claims he has made are either wrong, or inaccurate, or distorted.
                  (1) Biodiesel made from Palm Oil (CPO) is cheaper than Biodiesel made from any other crop - "WRONG" - Biodiesel made from Jatropha Curcas can be much cheaper than CPO.
                  (2) The development of palm oil plantations is responsible for an estimated 87% of deforestation in Malaysia - And in Sumatra and Borneo, some 4 million hectares of forest has been converted to palm farms. "INACCURATE" - There are 2 elements at work here - Most of the forests were logged to supply the insatiable timber requirements of the USA, the EU, and China. Even in Aussie, they are selling the Chinese timber flooring and furniture. Although Biodiesel is taking some of the CPO now, it was not responsible for the deforestation that happened before Biodiesel. Furthermore, the new Palm Oil plantations are not necessarily for Biodiesel - The world needs edible oil and a lot of it - We need more than is currently available. Present an alternative path to follow to satisfy the demand - Or do we simply keep the forests and not worry about the food requirements of the world?
                  (3) Thousands of indigenous people have been evicted from their lands, and some500 Indonesians have been torturedwhen they tried to resist. The forest fires, which every so often smother the region in smog, are mostly started by the palm growers. "UNSUBSTANTIATED" - Please understand that some of these do-gooders that release these stories get a bit carried away and stray from the truth.
                  (4) Vast forest must be felled and burnt - "DISTORTED" - Do you really think these people spend huge amounts of money logging and clearing the forests simply to plant palm oil? The forests are logged for the timber for the EU, USA, and Chinese market.
                  (5) If you and your supporters are serious in your criticism, of using CPO Biodiesel production, Then do something about it. How I see it is this:
                  ¨ If the world can produce a cheaper Biodiesel Feedstock, the expansion of the CPO industry will slow down.
                  ¨ There is a plant that can deliver the feedstock cheaper - Jatropha Curcas. It does compete with land areas targeted for food production, as it will grow easily on marginal land, which is otherwise of no use at all.
                  ¨ By utilizing outgrower schemes in developing countries. The results:
                  · Creation of employment opportunities, which in turn augments the economy, which helps to eliminate poverty.
                  · Cheaper Biodiesel.
                  · The investor receives a high profit.
                  Get the "No to CPO" supporters together with there funds and I will show the way.
                  Regards,
                  Peter

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Worse than fossil fuel

                    Originally posted by peterlink
                    Regarding the article by George Monbiot
                    Worse Than Fossil Fuel

                    December 6th, 2005 in climate change, oil
                    Although Monbiot is RIGHT regarding Biodiesel Feedstock Crops should not come from land that could be used for food crops.
                    However, some other claims he has made are either wrong, or inaccurate, or distorted.
                    (1) Biodiesel made from Palm Oil (CPO) is cheaper than Biodiesel made from any other crop - "WRONG" - Biodiesel made from Jatropha Curcas can be much cheaper than CPO. >"true"
                    (2) The development of palm oil plantations is responsible for an estimated 87% of deforestation in Malaysia - And in Sumatra and Borneo, some 4 million hectares of forest has been converted to palm farms. "INACCURATE" - There are 2 elements at work here - Most of the forests were logged to supply the insatiable timber requirements of the USA, the EU, and China. Even in Aussie, they are selling the Chinese timber flooring and furniture. "WE STILL BUY CHEAPO STUFF ,OUR MARKETS ARE FULL OF STUFF AS A RESULT OF AFORESTATION...
                    Although Biodiesel is taking some of the CPO now, it was not responsible for the deforestation that happened before Biodiesel. Furthermore, the new Palm Oil plantations are not necessarily for Biodiesel - The world needs edible oil and a lot of it - We need more than is currently available. Present an alternative path to follow to satisfy the demand - Or do we simply keep the forests and not worry about the food requirements of the world?
                    (3) Thousands of indigenous people have been evicted from their lands, and some500 Indonesians have been torturedwhen they tried to resist. The forest fires, which every so often smother the region in smog, are mostly started by the palm growers. "UNSUBSTANTIATED" - Please understand that some of these do-gooders that release these stories get a bit carried away and stray from the truth."AND ANYBODY WHO KNOWS ABOUT THE FOREST FIRES IN INDONESIA KNOWS HOW CORRUPTION PLAYS IN THE WHOLE EQUATION"
                    (4) Vast forest must be felled and burnt - "DISTORTED" - Do you really think these people spend huge amounts of money logging and clearing the forests simply to plant palm oil? The forests are logged for the timber for the EU, USA, and Chinese market."SOME FOR OUR OWN BACKYARD AND INTERIORS"
                    (5) If you and your supporters are serious in your criticism, of using CPO Biodiesel production, Then do something about it. How I see it is this:
                    ¨ If the world can produce a cheaper Biodiesel Feedstock, the expansion of the CPO industry will slow down.
                    ¨ There is a plant that can deliver the feedstock cheaper - Jatropha Curcas. It does compete with land areas targeted for food production, as it will grow easily on marginal land, which is otherwise of no use at all.
                    ¨ By utilizing outgrower schemes in developing countries. The results:
                    · Creation of employment opportunities, which in turn augments the economy, which helps to eliminate poverty.
                    · Cheaper Biodiesel.
                    · The investor receives a high profit.
                    Get the "No to CPO" supporters together with there funds and I will show the way."COUNT ME IN BUDDY"...GUESS NO ONE WILL PUT UP THEIR HANDS...WE SURE WILL GIVE THEM A RUN FOR THERE MONEY"
                    Regards,
                    Peter
                    Hi Peter,
                    Thank you for coming out so strongly.You are right all the way.
                    After all the thruth is the thruth.
                    Cheers

                    Sauman

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Worse than fossil fuel

                      Originally posted by joe
                      Biodiesel enthusiasts have accidentally invented the most carbon-intensive fuel on earth...

                      Read more...
                      http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005...fuel/#more-964
                      __________________________________________________ ___
                      Joe,
                      This is a very good site, thank you. There appears to be a wealth of well researched information. ML
                      Morris Lyda
                      [URL=http://www.thebiodieselstation.com]
                      The Biodiesel Station

                      Comment

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