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  • Hydrogen injection into petrol & diesel

    Does anyone know of these hydrogen injection systems.. ??

    Such as :

    http://www.savefuel.ca/hydrogen/

  • #2
    Re: Hydrogen injection into petrol & diesel

    I have read of many systems which offer better fuel mileage and even those which, like this one offer you vastly improved fuel mileage.
    I have not seen one which actually achieved anything, other than lightening your wallet.
    It takes more energy to get H2 and O2 from water than you get by combining the H2 and O2.
    Converting power from your engine to electricity is less than 80% efficient.
    Even if you could get 80% efficiency from the eletrolytic cell, you would only have 80%* 80% = 64% nett efficiency in producing H2 and then you will lose arround 75% of the energy from the H2 + O = H2) reaction in the engine efficiency (SI, 70% for CI).

    I believe that this is just another scam for the unwary. If you believe in it, send them your money and pray.

    I have been a sceptic for a long time and have yet to hear of one of these systems actually doing what they claim.

    I only know of one type of "free fuel" scheme which actually works, and that is an SVO conversion.

    Tony
    Tony From West Oz
    Vice Chairperson of WARFA
    Last edited by Tony From West Oz; 21 June 2006, 12:14 AM.
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
    '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
    '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
    '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Hydrogen injection into petrol & diesel

      I won't challenge your comment about some scams out there.
      However, you are not calculating the more complete burn of the diesel fuel. This is where the energy is coming from. Hydrogen acts as a supplement and is a fuel in of itself which makes the process more efficient.

      Daniel Wells
      Umpqua Energy

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Hydrogen injection into petrol & diesel

        Diesel fuel combusts completely in a diesel engine unless it is overfuelling. Overfuelling can normally only happen at full throttle acceleration.
        There is no Free Lunch, and anyone who says there is, has a lot to learn.
        I do not subscribe to scams,but, as was attributed to PT Barnum;
        there is a sucker born every minute"
        so many scamsters promote them to the unsuspecting.

        Daniel,
        Are you associated with this product?

        If you have verified results from a reputable university confirming your claimed performance improvements, I would be happy to review them. Please note, that research must be testing YOUR complete system, not just parts of the system in isolation.

        I am waiting to view the proof of your assertions.

        Tony
        Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

        Current Vehicles in stable:
        '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
        '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
        '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

        Previous Vehicles:
        '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
        '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
        '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
        '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
        '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
        '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
        '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
        '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
        '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

        Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
        Adding images and/or documents to your posts

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Hydrogen injection into petrol & diesel

          I am not associated with this product, nor am I attempting to validate this company's product. I have never seen it.

          If diesel burns completely, how do you explain emmissions; which is unspent fuel? In addition, one can increase hydrogen output by utilizing other methods of hydrogen production. There is a narrow market use for this technology - large diesel engines. This is not a consumer product in my opinion.
          dan.wells
          Biofuels Forum Newbie
          Last edited by dan.wells; 19 July 2006, 11:09 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Hydrogen injection into petrol & diesel

            Emissions from diesel are mainly CO2 (very little or no CO) and NOx, not much APH or soot unless at full power. there are others, but they are not really related to combustion efficiency.
            A spark ignition has approx 20 - 25% fuel efficiency (energy from fuel producing power at the crankshaft), the rest is pushed out the exhaust pipe or into the coolant.
            Diesel engines have a fuel efficiency of approx 30%, the rest is pushed out the exhaust pipe or into the coolant. This is because a diesel engine burns the fuel more completely.
            Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

            Current Vehicles in stable:
            '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
            '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
            '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

            Previous Vehicles:
            '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
            '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
            '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
            '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
            '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
            '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
            '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
            '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
            '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

            Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
            Adding images and/or documents to your posts

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Hydrogen injection into petrol & diesel

              Diesels also run higher compression ratios. Couple that with the fact of a full cylinder charge of air for each stroke and the burn is much more efficient than a petrol engine when running at part throttle.

              If anybody is interested in increasing the performance of their diesel engine, here is a link to some tech articles on diesels from Bankspower - http://www.bankspower.com/tech.cfm
              Terry Syd
              Senior Member
              Last edited by Terry Syd; 20 July 2006, 10:41 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Hydrogen injection into petrol & diesel

                I bought the Product from savefuel.com this year and have been running it on my Mazda for about 5 months. I have experienced improved gas mileage from 8-18%. I took a 2k mile roadtrip over somewhat hilly terrain from the southern US to northern and back and got 9% better mileage than my rated 34 MPG for my car. The technology does work.

                Chris in US

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Hydrogen injection into petrol & diesel

                  I just read the website for this device - what a load of crap.

                  First off, it just plugs into the existing intake manifold or air cleaner. That means there is no throttle control on the device.

                  A diesel engine takes in a full breath of air for each intake stroke. It is the amount of fuel that is metered into the cylinder that determines the engine speed. If this thing actually produced hydrogen for the cylinder the idle speed would be increased. Since the idle speed doesn't increase, that means the bloody thing doesn't do anything. No extra fuel = no extra engine speed - and that is at an IDLE. If this thing was adding any fuel at all it would be most noticeable at idle where just a smiddgen of fuel would increase the engine speed.

                  As far as carbon build up, it would be the oxygen in the fuel that would combine with the carbon to burn off the deposits. This thing allegedly strips the hydrogen from the oxygen in order to burn the hydrogen (God only knows where the oxygen is supposed to go).

                  Some of the writing on the site was so reminiscent of other bogus sites that I got the feeling it was written by the same person.

                  Another scam.

                  I wonder how many other bogus products are going to hit on this website. It appears that with the price of fuel going up that these drop-kicks of humanity are spamming any site that deals with automotives or fuel.

                  Heck, with this device plus the Filch cattleizer, and a few more devices that will save 20% more fuel - pretty soon we could add up all the savings so that eventually the engines will PRODUCE fuel.
                  Terry Syd
                  Senior Member
                  Last edited by Terry Syd; 21 July 2006, 01:58 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Hydrogen injection into petrol & diesel

                    Not quite Hydrogen but along the same lines

                    http://www.dieselgas.com.au/home.htm

                    Terry I do believe that complete combustion is never really reached. Droplet size is getting smaller so I would think its getting better all the time though. Older indirect and non common rail or high pressure direct injection diesels would most likely benefit most form this type of thing.

                    Given the microscopic amount of fuel injected with each stroke its a hard thing to measure. Heaven knows what the latest common rail engines with 9 injections per stroke can do. These multiple injections are all to garner more complete burn and better mechanical tendances.

                    Regards,
                    Matt
                    Biodiesel Bandit

                    Landcruiser '98 80 series B100.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Hydrogen injection into petrol & diesel

                      Diesel and gas is a winning combination and it is not new at all. I converted an old Alco stationary engine to diesel and natural gas some 30 years ago and it was an old trick back then.
                      The idea of fumigating LPG in the air intake of a diesel is also rather old. Computers allow to do this much more efficiently and that is what dieselgas sells.

                      The problem in Australia is the unpredictability of the mixture that we sell as "autogas" that can be 50-50 Propane and Butane, and any combination up or down including some ethane thrown in for good measure.
                      European conversions have pure Propane available and enjoy a much better compatibility with diesel / gas than we do, therefore more research is needed with our rouge australian conversions.

                      Having said that, you cannot compare diesel and gas to all the other scams snake oils and tricks for sale out there. Diesel and gas are a winning combination and validated by decades of use in industry and heavy vehicles.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Hydrogen injection into petrol & diesel

                        "Terry I do believe that complete combustion is never really reached." - I didn't say it was.

                        Lots of things effect the ability of the mixture to fully combust. Turbulence is one, that's why such things as off-set valves to swirl the mixture or squish bands to create turbulence at top dead centre. Vaporisation to break down the minute droplets, even high injection pressure to produce a finer spray. All of these things are trying to get as many fuel molecules lined up with an oxygen molecule so that they can burn.

                        If you want better burning of the existing fuel, just add oxygen. Only about 20% of the atmosphere is oxygen. If you increased the oxygen content of the mixture to just 30% you would increase the chances of a fuel molecule meeting an oxygen molecule by 50% - so why doesn't this U-beaut gimmick use the oxygen molecule it is removing from the hydrogen molecules?

                        This gimmick does none of those things above to increase the ability to combust. It is supposedly adding more fuel to the cylinder, the fuel of hydrogen.

                        Yes, the LPG systems do work on diesels, but the supply to the engine is a regulated fuel. They do not just stick a hose in the aircleaner and let the bottle do its thing.

                        When you turned on the LPG to the manifold, did the revs increase? Of course they did - you were adding fuel to the engine. That's my point, no increase in idle speed = no increase in fuel.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Hydrogen injection into petrol & diesel

                          When you turned on the LPG to the manifold, did the revs increase? Of course they did - you were adding fuel to the engine. That's my point, no increase in idle speed = no increase in fuel. Yesterday 06:33 PM
                          Well, that is a bit simplistic. Dual fuel combinations don't work by pushing more fuel in the engine and increase in idling speed is certainly not what is achieved. The idea is to create a mixture of fuel that compliment each other for a more efficient engine. Or that is the objective anyway.

                          LPG/Diesel works and Hydrogen /Diesel works too and so would a number of dual fuel combinations. The problem I see with H/D is that Hydrogen is not added from another source but manufactured on board. If the H2 injected came from a bottle bought at the petrol station I would say that depending on cost and safety it should be an OK combination.

                          This is not a bad idea, since an internal combustion engine squanders a lot of energy into heat and part of that heat could be used for the generation of Hydrogen therefore using no additional energy coming from the primary fuel. If they would use a generator that turns pushed by the exhaust gases like a turbo, then I would say, very good!
                          However the on board Hydrogen generator is not using the exhaust gases to push a generator not the heat from the exhaust or the coolant but is using electricity plain and simple from the car's generator and so the H2 created comes at a cost in diesel fuel.

                          The question remains, is the additional cost in fuel to create H2 worth the bother for the additional energy given out from burning H2?

                          The answer to this is probably no, since the energy used to make H2 far outstripps all the energy the H2 has as fuel and much less if you take into account the conversion by the diesel engine into energy on the wheels.

                          So really if this dual fuel system is to work, we must be able to find additional energy and this can only come from making the diesel engine more efficient in its conversion of fuel into mechanical force.

                          So for the mathematically inclined, the problem is work out how much additional energy must the diesel/Hydrogen combustion be, to compensate for the loss of energy from creating H2.

                          My guestimate is that such is wishful thinking and that the Hydrogen injection will probably give you more power but at a cost. However I could be wrong and happy to be proven so. Now how hard is it to make a turbopowered generator to make the Hydrogen? Not much.... but please do not think of a fan spinning on top of the roof, the perpetual motion engine does not work





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                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Hydrogen injection into petrol &amp; diesel

                            Marc, I read your long post. I'm not sure if you are engaging in obfuscation or that you just don't understand what I am saying.

                            I'm saying that this gimmick does not produce a fuel for the engine.

                            I'm saying that this gimmick does not produce a fuel for the engine.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Hydrogen injection into petrol &amp; diesel

                              I'm Devestated!
                              I visited the website in question and after reading all of the scientific testimonials posted I was convinced. I believe this was the most scientific information on their whole webnsite


                              When I hit the "Buy Now" button It said: "We regret to inform you the product you have selected Hydro-Gen Unit is currently out of stock. Please click the link below to return to our website."

                              I am heart broken, is life worth living.

                              Tilly

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