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  • Does it really work

    New guy on the block so my first question may seem a bit dumb

    Have just had the fuel pump and injectors done on my truck and spoke to the mechanic about useing alternative fuel.

    This guy is pretty up front, he has more work than he can handel, his workshop is like a doctors surgery and you can call in at any time to view the progress on your vehicle. When I asked about biodiesel he took me through his workshop and showed me all the problems caused by it. His final comment was that no one in Australia as yet has come up with a suitable fuel mix.

    Now I'd like to brew my own fuel and have started sourcing raw material etc, but I must admit I'm quite concerned about all the examples he showed me.

    NB: this guy wasn't against useing it, his final comment was along the lines of " He's never seen a motor that ran sucessfully on it in Australia.

    Therefore I ask the question - Who has had long term sucess with the quality of their fuel, and what process do you use.

    Thanks
    Kev

  • #2
    Re: Does it really work

    Hello Kevin, welcome to the forum!

    Generally speaking, Where do you live?
    I find it interesting that he could show you all the problems caused by it.
    Broken windows, flat tyres, burnt out light bulbs?
    I think that when he says "He's never seen a motor that ran sucessfully on it in Australia." what he really means is that he has never seen a motor run on biodiesel and has not got a clue what he is talking about.

    I had an old 81 diesel Gemini and in about a three year period, I put over 90,000km on it using B100 exclusively before the rust finally caught up with it. During this time I drove it from ลึก ประเทศอินเด& to Waga Wagga twice, to Melbourne once and to Sydney three times. All on B100.

    I did have a mud flap deteriorate and fall of which was directly caused by the biodiesel spilling on it.
    I also had two flat tyres, the left hand front turn signal lense fall off, I had to replace the Seat Covers twice and I Changed the timing belt twice.
    I do not believe these problems were biodiesel related, but who knows.

    On the other hand I did not experience one engine problem, it still runs perfectly (Only 220,00km) and is presently being installed in a boat.

    Tilly
    tillyfromparadise
    Senior Member
    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 18 July 2006, 06:58 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Does it really work

      I'm sure Tilly's already expressed it far more eloquently than I can, but your mechanic needs some education on what biodiesel is. When Rudolf Diesel first demonstrated his engine running in 1900, it was on peanut oil. The Cummins corp in the 1920s came up with a different fuel injection system so that it could run on petroleum distillate (which people now incorrectly call "diesel"). The modern fuel injection system is designed for distillate, so straight vegetable oil will run in a diesel engine (as it was originally made for), but not without a few modifications required. However, biodiesel is NOT vegetable oil and it has been chemically modified to have the same viscosity as distillate does, thus causing no problems for an unmodified diesel engine (in fact it is better for the injection system as it lubricates it far better than distillate).
      It is sad that so many mechanics have never actually tested it, so they rely on rumors and urban legends then use the little bits they think they know to formulate stories that sound authoritative. It is also very common for mechanics to think that biodiesel just means adding some veggie oil into your tank along with your distillate.
      The TRUTH of the matter is that biodiesel DOES work, it DOES have an Australian standard developed (as it also has in most other countries) and it is quite easy to say that biodiesel made to the Australian standard will cause absolutely no problems in any diesel engine (even modern "high tech" turbo-charged, common rail diesels like mine). It is true that biodiesel can be made in your own shed and you could potentially make a dud batch. Chances are, it will still run through your car quite happily and there are many folks out there who will swear by their unwashed biodiesel.
      The only thing that your mechanic may be right about is that biodiesel can cause hoses and seals made from nitrile rubber (mostly only used in vehicles prior to the mid '90s) to degrade. This is a very slow process and is also caused by the new standard of diesel - ULSD. Either way, the problem is with the old materials, not with the fuel and you will have this problem even if you don't use biodiesel.
      Robert.
      Site Admin.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Does it really work

        Engines live and die on either fuel, did your mechanic give any specific details of the problems.
        The stupid design of my vechile sucks fumes from the crankcase directly into the turbo after the air filter if i do nothing the engine will carbon up and die.
        If it has a tankful of biodiesel they will blame the fuel, if it has dino diesel they will blame the driver or the type of vechile or the brand of engine oil or the brand of oil filter or the brand of fuel filter or the thermostat, or whatever.
        Biodiesel is the new kid on the block and lazy thinkers will definitely blame biodiesel if it suits them.
        I recently had injectors replaced on my vechile and a few other things i wanted and told the owner of a very shiny very clean workshop that a lot of people say is very good. And this work was before i used biodiesel.

        Yes they did the injectors and said they did the other stuff to, and told me my injector pump was leaking because of the ulsd, i said its not leaking and showed him the leak was from a component above the injector pump a little spring loaded and oil filled shock absorber.
        He wouldnt admit he was wrong, this bloke expected that his opinion would not be question and that because he is a diesel mechanic he doesnt get wrong.
        He got it wrong and lied, several weeks later i decided to check to see if certain things had been done, and they had not been touched at all.
        Asking most mechanics about biodiesel is like a dentist giving advice on heart surgery.
        The best advice about biodiesel is at this and similar sites.
        I find it very rewarding to be able to produce a fuel that is more refined and better for my engine.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Does it really work

          Originally posted by kevin lillie
          New guy on the block so my first question may seem a bit dumb

          Have just had the fuel pump and injectors done on my truck and spoke to the mechanic about useing alternative fuel.

          This guy is pretty up front, he has more work than he can handel, his workshop is like a doctors surgery and you can call in at any time to view the progress on your vehicle. When I asked about biodiesel he took me through his workshop and showed me all the problems caused by it. His final comment was that no one in Australia as yet has come up with a suitable fuel mix.

          Now I'd like to brew my own fuel and have started sourcing raw material etc, but I must admit I'm quite concerned about all the examples he showed me.

          NB: this guy wasn't against useing it, his final comment was along the lines of " He's never seen a motor that ran sucessfully on it in Australia.

          Therefore I ask the question - Who has had long term sucess with the quality of their fuel, and what process do you use.

          Thanks
          Kev
          Kev,
          I have been using used coking oil as my diesel fuel for nearly 6 years now in a number of vehicles with no engine problems, or fuel system problems (other than cold oil, or air, in the injector pump) related to the fuel in use.
          The problems I have had have been:
          • Cracked head - due to loss of coolant hose
          • Oil leak from head gasket - due to overboosting engine
          • Solid biodiesel in start-up fuel system - Tallow biodiesel in Autumn cold snap
          • Air in fuel system - ran out of veggie oil (several times due to lack of fuel gauge on veggie system.
          • Cold veggie in IP after extended stop - my failure to purge veggie before shutdown.
          • Filter clogging - due to diesel contaminants not liking biodiesel in my startup (main) fuel tank.
          • Loss of power when cold - due to insufficient heat in veggie system before the veggie filter.

          The vehicles in which I have used these fuels are all still running strong and well, with no degradation noticable from the use of these fuels.
          Tony From West Oz
          Vice Chairperson of WARFA
          Last edited by Tony From West Oz; 24 July 2006, 12:14 AM.
          Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

          Current Vehicles in stable:
          '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
          '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
          '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

          Previous Vehicles:
          '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
          '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
          '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
          '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
          '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
          '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
          '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
          '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
          '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

          Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
          Adding images and/or documents to your posts

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Does it really work

            For better or worse I trust this guy. ( For reasons other than the fact he is a deisel mechanic )

            In his workshop he has over 30 containers of Bio Diesel that he has drained from vehicles he has repaired, they are documented and show the mix and also the type of business they came from ie McDonalds, Fish & Chip shop etc. He has photos of the fuel pumps and the problems each one encountered.

            He also is the approved mechanic for our local bus company which was running several vehicles on both bio and SVO and did the repair work on the vehicles. I think he's qualified to comment on the issues he had had to deal with.

            His comments to me are specific to problems with fuel pumps and injectors.

            They all show deposits of Fatty like susbtances that end up destroying the fuel system, as I'm new to this I'm of the opinion that impurities in the fuel are not being filtered out. Therefor it's a problem in the brewing that is causing the problem. Am I close to identifying the problem ?? I don't know. Some of the fuel mixes smelt like paint thinner, others appeared to have two distinct layers in them and looked like used motor oil for the bottom layer. Once again I'd like to stress that this guy didn't dismiss the concept, his comments were that he'd never seen a vehicle that ran sucessfully on the fuel that people made. Now it's quite possible that in his line of work he only gets to see the failures.

            Having said all this I still interested in having a go at it, My truck is a 1990 Daihatsu Delta, it has a 2.8 ltr motor and for what its worth it's a "B" motor???

            Assuming he only sees the ones that fail, and his experience is related to failures of the fuel system, what recipy do you guys use that have been sucessful, how do you filter out the impurities.

            Thanks.

            And for the guy that asked where I live, it Upwey Victoria, next suburb on from Fern Tree Gully. If you live within a reasonable distance I'll shout you a beer and pick ypur brain.

            Thanks All
            Kev

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Does it really work

              Thanks Kev for your continued interest. I'd be very curious to know how your mechanic can tell the source and blend of the "bio" that he drains from the tanks, as far as I know even the best of us (even well equipped chemical labs) have a very hard time even telling the blend, let alone the feedstock.
              To re-iterate, I reckon that he is probably confusing straight vegetable oil with biodiesel. There is a BIG difference. Both will run in a diesel engine, but veggie oil needs modification and even then, can cause issues. Biodiesel is chemically reacted Methyl Esters and will run in any diesel engine better than distillate will (in my humble opinion).
              I don't want to rubbish your mechanic, I'm sure he knows a hell of a lot more than me about diesel engines, but I am a little dubious as I've heard so much of this before from diesel mechanics who have jumped to conclusions based on the wrong info. It is an easy mistake to make.
              Still having said all that, I'm always prepared to admit when I'm wrong (and in fact grateful for someone to point it out to me - at least I can learn something). So, if you can get any real info about the harmfulness of biodiesel, I'd welcome it to be posted so we can all discuss it amongst ourselves and hopefully all learn something along the way.
              Glad to hear that you are still not deterred and I'm sure that there will be others more qualified in here who will be able to help you get stated on making some quality biodiesel.

              Also, if you could convince your mechanic to venture in here, we'd love to hear from him, especially if he has experience with SVO conversions, I'm sure he'd be a great resource to many of the forum users and maybe he'd find some use from it himself.
              Robert.
              Site Admin.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Does it really work

                Hello Kevin

                I would love to have a beer with you, but unfortunatly I live in ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย.
                Let me asure you that you have picked the wrong Expert to listen to.

                While he may be a great mechanic, he demonstrates a total lack of knowledge about biodiesel.
                A person does not go to an oncologist with a heart problem.

                Tilly
                tillyfromparadise
                Senior Member
                Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 19 July 2006, 11:38 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Does it really work

                  Hi Kevin,
                  You will ultimately be the one to decide which way to jump but for what it's worth let me say this much. WE know that if the oil is processed properly and the fuel system has no rubber in it then the bio will do no harm whatsoever. WE also know that the bio does tend to clean the fuel system and in the process can clog the filter with the crap that has been acumulated from the dino diesel and once the system is squeaky clean - no more troubles. Above each post in the forum you will see a bar with information about the poster (?) and you can easily tell that there are some very experienced people contributing in the forum from all over the globe. Bio has been used successfully for many years, and I'm talking decades here, all over the World. To possibly help you make your decision might I suggest that you go to the forum jump dropdown menu at the bottom of the pages and check out 'making biodiesel' and browse the posts for recipes and methods and hiccups some of us have had whilst learning. You can always stick your toe in the water by making small quantities and watching the miracle unfold right before my very eyes. I hope you won't feel put off because - "YES KEVIN, IT REALLY DOES WORK"
                  Cheers, Sheriff

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Does it really work

                    And contrary to popular legend,
                    No manufacturer has ever used natural rubber in the fuel system of a diesel engine,

                    Tilly

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Does it really work

                      G Day Folks,
                      Tilly you got a humungous sence of humor.Love it.
                      Now to some serious wacky thought.
                      Do you folks it would be a good idea if we could start a Awereness campaign (within the confines of the Law) of educating mechanics.
                      Something like each member takes a bit of free time and organises a talk and benifits of Bio Diesel to the local mechanic ,organzie a Barbie and prsent them with real facts.
                      Maybe if some member has some pull in the govt circles we could even get the whole thing funded(after all we are doing a part of their job...and helping in emission reduction....they should fall for it...hook ,line and sinker.....media would love it too...boy live stories everyday...).I wander why the big boys aren't doing it.Guess they are busy getting big.Or their management books never taught them to think out of the percieved square.
                      That way we could use the whole idea of fraternity building and education of and knowledge disemmination.
                      Or every time we have a meet call a few mechanics to share their experiences.In other words winning them over.The reverse physcology program. ??
                      This would also in long term propogate the idea of alternate fuels and fuel mangement.
                      Lets think about it.

                      We need everyone out there to be aware."Build it and they will come".
                      And if you can dream it...You can do it....just a simple dream.

                      Cheers
                      Sauman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Does it really work

                        Originally posted by kevin lillie

                        In his workshop he has over 30 containers of Bio Diesel that he has drained from vehicles he has repaired, they are documented and show the mix and also the type of business they came from ie McDonalds, Fish & Chip shop etc. He has photos of the fuel pumps and the problems each one encountered.


                        Kev
                        Sorry to sound like a smart ass but your mechanic seems to take an unusually sophisticated and well organised interest in documenting how well bio does NOT work.

                        I have never heard of a mechanic that has spent so much time in collecting evidence to prove how something dosen't work or why people shouldn't use it particularly on anything as fledgling as bio fuels.

                        I can't help but think no matter how competent a mechanic this person may be, their views appear to be anything but impartial.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Does it really work

                          I dont know if business names should be mentioned, but i would really like to know if it is the same place that worked on my vechile.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Does it really work

                            Kevin, firstly I must say this is meant to be constructive.

                            Your mechanic may only be seeing the problems, I assure you it works. I have a toyota landcruiser and a modern common rail 2004 Peugeot 307 HDi running just fine. I suggest you make some, do it right and show him what biodiesel really should look like. He just needs education, not distractions.

                            I know of one diesel shop here in Brisbane who made similar noises until they were shown a sample of my fuel. Their reation on first sight was "that's not biodiesel", to which I replied "Yes it is, take a smell or taste it". I understand it lives on his shelf to use as a comparison!

                            Make it well and if you feel like it, filter it too. You will not look back.
                            Matt

                            Next trip south is a year off, I will drop in and show you some if your not doing it by then!


                            Originally posted by kevin lillie
                            For better or worse I trust this guy. ( For reasons other than the fact he is a deisel mechanic )

                            In his workshop he has over 30 containers of Bio Diesel that he has drained from vehicles he has repaired, they are documented and show the mix and also the type of business they came from ie McDonalds, Fish & Chip shop etc. He has photos of the fuel pumps and the problems each one encountered.

                            He also is the approved mechanic for our local bus company which was running several vehicles on both bio and SVO and did the repair work on the vehicles. I think he's qualified to comment on the issues he had had to deal with.

                            His comments to me are specific to problems with fuel pumps and injectors.

                            They all show deposits of Fatty like susbtances that end up destroying the fuel system, as I'm new to this I'm of the opinion that impurities in the fuel are not being filtered out. Therefor it's a problem in the brewing that is causing the problem. Am I close to identifying the problem ?? I don't know. Some of the fuel mixes smelt like paint thinner, others appeared to have two distinct layers in them and looked like used motor oil for the bottom layer. Once again I'd like to stress that this guy didn't dismiss the concept, his comments were that he'd never seen a vehicle that ran sucessfully on the fuel that people made. Now it's quite possible that in his line of work he only gets to see the failures.

                            Having said all this I still interested in having a go at it, My truck is a 1990 Daihatsu Delta, it has a 2.8 ltr motor and for what its worth it's a "B" motor???

                            Assuming he only sees the ones that fail, and his experience is related to failures of the fuel system, what recipy do you guys use that have been sucessful, how do you filter out the impurities.

                            Thanks.

                            And for the guy that asked where I live, it Upwey Victoria, next suburb on from Fern Tree Gully. If you live within a reasonable distance I'll shout you a beer and pick ypur brain.

                            Thanks All
                            Kev
                            Biodiesel Bandit

                            Landcruiser '98 80 series B100.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Does it really work

                              Kevin
                              Remember it is the person making it that dictates the quality of the finished product.

                              regards
                              bj4408

                              Comment

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