What is this stuff?

[Guest Close David]

Today while awaiting the arrival of my new air-cooled Diesel project engine, I thought it might be nice to start the thing off on the right foot and not only break it in on BD but for the life of the engine, use nothing else but BD in it.

I went to the local volume plus but not seeing any pump marked Biodiesel, I went to a couple more places before thinking that maybe the engine would have to have some dino diesel in it after all. I went to the cheapest local servo and immediately saw something suspicious when an amount of fuel ran out of the pump nozzle onto the top of the tin I was about to fill up.
It was obviously very yellow and smelt a lot more like a combination of fish oil and turps than the distinctive Diesel odor I was expecting.

When I went in to pay for the stuff and asked the likely looking gentleman behind the counter if their diesel fuel was Bio diesel, after a long pause and a blank stare I was told in the best Indian accent minimum wage rates can command, “Of course you are having to be buying the Diesel just like the petrol and anything else you are to be wanting to be having from this place. What would make you to be thinking that giving it away for nothing we could do?”


After I worked out what the man was trying to say, I blinked twice to try to remove the blank expression I was now sure was own my own face and simply handed over the bucks and left without bothering to even consider explaining the question I was seeking clarification on.

So to my learned cyber bio buddies, is this stuff a bio blend?
I’m sure it is but I was expecting it to be labeled as Bio diesel on the Pump which it was definately not.
Is bio usually labeled as what it is or is it normally just sold as regular Dino Diesel and you have to ask to know what you are actually getting? Does anyone know if all the VP Servos sell a bio blend or is it marked as such if it is?

I am now looking forward to seeing a friend of mine on Saturday night. I have been extolling the virtues of Bio Diesel to him for a while but after having him on the ropes and nearly convinceing him, he decided he wouldn't use it in his new Turbo Diesel Patrol because the dealership he works for told him it would void the cars 5 yr warranty. I know he fills up at the servo I got this fuel from today so I can't wait to tell him just what he has been running his new pride and joy on for the last 6 months.

Then again, maybe I shouldn't say a thing just yet....

[Bill Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Bill]

Re: What is this stuff?

Yellow indicates winterised petrodiesel

Cloudy indicates water contamination and could indicate bacterial contaminination

Fish oil and turps could indicate bacterial contamination or contamination with another solvent such as paint thinner

Just because it is yellow, cloudy and smells does not mean it is biodiesel. Biodiesel should be clear and can range in colour from colourless (from coconut), yellow (from canola) or brown (from used cooking oil). It should smell like biodiesel (except the coconut biodiesel smells like sickly sweet fruit) and not like turps or solvent.

I'd say this petrodiesel is contaminated. The turps smell could be from kerosine that is used to winterise petrodiesel. A solvent smell could indicate the petrodiesel has been "extended".

Morris Lyda, 73 Marrickville Rd, Marrickville, is the only one who sells biodiesel that I know of around your area. It should be clearly stated as biodiesel or a biodiesel blend. To do otherwise would be illegal.

[Matt Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Matt]

Re: What is this stuff?

I would say its definately been adulterated and would report them straight off, dodgy fuel sellers beware.

Its poor bio if its that at all, I would say its bio with something added but would say it should be transparent but not necessarily clear. The solvent smell is sus to say the least. I am not sure of the crud settling out either, was the container clean? Either way if its not diesel and is being sold out of a bowser not labelled as such then its illegal. (people in glass houses beware he he he)

Matt

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: What is this stuff?

The colour does look a little like biodiesel, but it should NOT be cloudy! Where did you get it? The volume plus servos - not sure if they all label the product as biodiesel - I've seen a few that have notes pinned to the bowser and also a few that have notes that are so weather faded so as not to be legible any more. I've had many words to the folk at VP about this, but not got very far. There are also some other mystery servos supplied by "diamond fuels" who get their supply from the same source as VP. They won't tell me which servos as they "have a strategy for fuel sales in Sydney", which seems to involve keeping where they sell a secret.
Not sure if that is biodiesel (blend), or as Bill suggests, winterised petroleum distillate. I'd probably be able to tell by how it feels - biodiesel is nice and slippery without drying the skin, whereas dino diesel feels a bit scratchy. Not very scientific - does anyone have any better ideas for testing it?
Either way, I'd be very careful of that fuel, if it is cloudy, it is contaminated. Tell us where you got it and we'll know to stay clear!

BTW - this is what the samples of bio I had looked like



(from the thread here)

[Matt Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Matt]

Re: What is this stuff?

Sorry Robert and al else, your coment broght back memories of my first foray into Bio. I bought some not far from the Victorian / NSW border near Holbrook I think were there was a station selling bio, it had been mentioned in the RACQ magazine the month prior to my holidays. It came out a lot (far far) worse looking than this, my experience now tells me it was either unwashed raw bio or more likely heavily water laden.

Moisture at the molecular level will give a good haze to the fuel but don;t be too put off by it. Its only when it reaches saturation and drops out in drops that it will cause you grief. Within reason too as the characteristics of the fuel and water change under pressure and temperature.

Anyway dry it out a bit in the hot sun (if such a thing exists down there at this time of year) and see what happens.

Matt
Off to watch Catalyst on ABC2 - good night

[Guest Close David]

Re: What is this stuff?

Thanks everyone for the replies.

It is possible the cloudyness is due to me not properly drying out the bottle before I put the fuel in. I washed it out with some detergent and then gave it a rinse out with petrol to get rid of the water but maybe I wasn't through enough. I was mainly trying to put the stuff into a clear bottle to photograph it to show the colour. I'll decant some more tomorrow from the very dry tin I initally pumped it into and see if it is clear or cloudy.

The colour in the pics is quite accurate and having had another whiff, I still say the stuff smells like a mixture of fish oil and turps ( rather than kero). The smell is very mild though, certainly not as strong as I remember the last lot of diesel I got and it dosen't leave your hands stinking even after you wash it off with soap.

The place I got the stuff from was the Helou station on the corner of Canterbury rd. and Punchbowl Rd. opposite the Croation Club. I have been buying petrol from there for years and have not had any fuel related problems in my Vehicles or various bits of power equipment.

I'm thinking I may go to another station up the road tomorrow and get some of their diesel for comparison. The stuff I got today certainly dosen't smell like any diesel I have bought before and I generally use it for parts washing etc so you get a good whiff using it like that. I don't also recall seeing any diesel that colour which is what made me think they were selling Bio on the sly. If another lot of diesel I get is the same colour I'll be more convinced it is just winterised Dino maybe blended or cut.

I did notice the stuff seemed quite slippery straight away. The handle on the pump nozzle was wet with the stuff and I was a bit annoyed that I got it all over my hands and was hard to wipe off. It was then before I even pumped the stuff I noticed the smell and how oily it was, again making me think I had stumbled on a bio blend.

Maybe instead of going chasing round after a bio blend I should just throw a 20L drum in the car and go for a drive to Merrylands and get some methanol and start making my own..... Soap.

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: What is this stuff?

Yes, it certainly sounds like biodiesel... I would not be at all surprised if it is being supplied there by diamond fuels on the sly. I'd get really angry about it and threaten to report them to whichever body controls this sort of thing, but I don't want to do the wrong thing by biodiesel. Selling it this way, they are setting themselves up for a big fall in the same way that happened with ethanol
Glad that you can get it, but I'd be happier if you were an informed consumer and knew what you were getting. It makes me really mad when these guys take us consumers for idiots! (I'll get off my soap box now and go and think of a more productive use for my vitriol).

[Guest Close David]

Re: What is this stuff?

I do know where you are coming from Robert.

While I was happy enough to have (maybe) found what I was actually looking for in a bio blend at least, I have realised the situation of my friend who does not want to use Bio for fear of voiding his cars warranty is a genuine concern.

What if something happens to his vehicle and while it is being repaired, a mechanic who removes a fuel line or pump notices this stuff dripping on him isn’t the regular stinking diesel and the dealer uses this to avoid coughing up for warranty repairs that may have nothing at all to do with the fuel anyway?

Sure, my friend could fight it and loose time, sleep and money doing so, but it would be entirely unfair for him to have to do this especially as he was trying to do the right thing in the first place and not use a product he was told not to.

The logical progression of this is that he or another person this may also likely happen to gets their nose out of joint on this Bio S##t, tells everyone they know not to use it, how it wrecked their car and then gets the bright idea of going to one of the tabloid TV shows in an effort to embarrass the manufactures to fix his car or blame the fuel outlet and tries to make them foot the bill.

Once that happens, Bingo! Instant ethanol debacle all over again and bio has a bad name for the next 20 years. You know dam well that the media won’t report the truth in that the actual fault with the car was a leaking welsh plug that necessitated the engine being removed and the unauthorized fuel being discovered. Whether or not someone like fair trading deems the fuel irrelevant and makes the dealer honor the warranty repair, the media will have convinced everyone Bio is bad. Once everyone else starts blaming their flat tires and running over the dog on bio, the ball will be rolling and the impression in the public’s narrow minds will be set.

I think in this country we have the right to make choices in the products we use and therefore also have the right to basic labeling info as to exactly what it is we are paying so dearly for in the way of fuels.

I will go tomorrow and get some diesel from a major brand outlet for comparison and if I believe there is a significant difference between the two samples, I will have the first batch analyzed by the kind person who has offered to do so for me and I may seek your advise as to the best course of action from there if the report I get back warrants it.

[smokey2 Member Find all posts View Profile Close smokey2]

Re: What is this stuff?

The warranty stuff has been covered elsewhere on this board. Basically dealers do not cover warranty on dodgey fuel as that is the responsibility of the fuel companies whether it be a problem with dino or bio fuels. No matter what fuel you are using replacing diesel fuel filters regularly is a good idea as it puts less stress on the fuel system. A crook injector pump is just that and it is almost impossible for the lay person to argue the toss with a dealer if the dealer claims it is a fuel related problem. There is no requirement in Australia to label diesel fuel as bio or anything else. The only requirement is that it meets the relevant Australian standard.

[Guest Close David]

Re: What is this stuff?

Today I went to a Caltex Servo just up the road from me and got some of their Diesel. This stuff was exactly what I was expecting in colour, feel and very much in smell!

The Caltex Diesel on the left and yesterdays mystery mix from the independent station is shown on the right. I made very sure the jars which I put the stuff into today were as dry and clean as 5 minutes spent on each one with a clean cloth could get them.

Obviously there is a significant difference in colour and all I can say is if the yellow stuff is due to winterising, This stuff must have been earmarked for a cold snap in Siberia!

While the clearish diesel smelt exactly like diesel, the yellow stuff still smells like fish oil and turps... although you need to take a real good whiff to get any smell at all from it.

http://www.darestockphotography.com/boi&diesel.jpg

[Gunner Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Gunner]

Re: What is this stuff?

Another point to consider regarding possibly suspect fuel is that some "Discount" type servos ARE getting BD blends from their suppliers and that their ground tanks may have had 10, 20 or 30 years or more of dinocrud on their tank walls. Just as BD will clean out your cars fuel tank, it will also do a sparkling job on their bulk ground tanks. I will NEVER refuel at any servo when the delivery truck has made a delivery as the adding of a truckload of fuel will stir up all the flaky bits of crud and water sitting on the bottom of their tank. After an hour or so, this crud will resettle to the bottom of the tank and you should be relatively certain of getting cleanish fuel. If they have added 5000 odd litres of BD, that will be cleaning up all that goop and dissolving it into the fuel. The servo ought to have a filter on their bowser supply lines, but "the elements cost money, and well, we did sort of change it 6 months ago".

[darren leonadas Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close darren leonadas]

Re: What is this stuff?

That photo top of this thread looks pretty biodiesel to me!!
I recently had a conversation (or maybe a bad dream),, that i was talking to some heavy's in the greek mafia, who said "If ya dont tell em its not diesel they'll keep comin' back for the right price!!", ...
Fact 1 . B5 (5% biodiesel/95% fossil) is undetectable in the Lab. Quote Prof. Martin Mittlebach. Grazz University Austria.
Fact 2 . That's in Prof. Mittelbach's Lab. !
The Gov. inspectors who have the capacity to test the fuel at any fuel station have an Australian standard Lab. Not quite to the Austrian (Grazz University) standard.
So dont be surprized if we're (those buying fossil) already burning B10 without being told.

A good and simple test i saw performed in a lab, (its so easy you'll laugh) Is to put some of the fuel in a shallow jar or tin and LIGHT IT.

If the flame is bright yellow with macromolecular black **** in the smoke above the flame-- Its FOSSIL.
If the flame is bluey orange with no smoke at all, no visibly detectable emissions,-- Its Bio.
cheers Darren.

[Bill Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Bill]

Re: What is this stuff?

B5 is easily detectable when doing a total and free glycerol chromatographic analysis. You should also be able to spot it on the FAME analysis too. Nearly all of the peaks on the TFG column are petrodiesel for B5 but you can easily see the distortion of the normal curve shape of peak heights from the methyl oleates and methyl palmitate.

It might not be easily quantifiable but you can still see the two major biodiesel peaks.