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  • Consumption double

    Hi Folks

    I posted a few days ago about the increase in consumption of my Hilux 3 litre EFI. After running out the BD and filling up with petrodiesel then measuring distance and litres at the next top up, I can tell you that the consumption is slightly less than half that of BD. That is to say, I use about twice as much BD to go the same distance. Scary!

    Yes, I know the rest of you get good enonomy with your cars running BD but I'm not sure there's anyone else running an EFI system. The neighbour starting doing BD at the same time I did and his mid 80's Landcruiser loves it.

    I'm in the process of nutting out how an EFI system really works. My gut feeling is that there is some kind of feedback loop in the injector area that isn't being able to work properly thereby opening up the flow to max and therefore huge consumption.

    If there's any automotive engineers amongst us that really understand this stuff then please speak up.

    I've got a horrible feeling I may have unearthed a nasty limitation of BD. After spending more than a $1000 getting the plant together here as well as untold hours of labour, I'm more than a little disappointed that this is failing so badly!

    I truly hope to come up with a solution for this. Until then, it's petrodiesel for me.

  • #2
    Re: Consumption double

    Hi Ross,

    That is very weird, I've certainly not heard of this before. I am certain it has nothing to do with EFI per se, as my car (and in fact almost all modern cars) have EFI. I get maybe 5% worse economy on biodiesel, but certainly not 50% . Loads of us drive cars with EFI, but I've not heard anyone else report this before. There must be some other factor at play here.
    I'd be eager to hear if anyone out there more qualified could offer any suggestions or ideas.
    Ross, can you please give us more specific details of your vehicle as well? Also, the biodiesel you are using, is it made to Australian Spec? i.e. can you be sure it has the right amount of "grunt", can you confirm the cetane rating etc?
    Robert.
    Site Admin.

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    • #3
      Re: Consumption double

      Hi Robert

      I'm driving a 2002 Hilux 2x4 3 litre EFI, 90 000km on the clock.

      I'd like to know more about testing my BD for quality. Not sure how to test cetane level. After bubblewashing and drying the fuel, I test for SG to be arond the .85 mark. It settles clear and would appear to be fine. What else can I do to test that it's up to speed?

      I wouldn't mind betting it's not enough grunt. The last few days running on petrodiesel have been significantly different not only in consumption but in power, smoothness at speed and idle as well.

      Maybe it's bad WVO. I've got a couple of places on the go. What could they be doing that might affect the oil negatively?

      All ideas welcome.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Consumption double

        My bet is that the injection timing is way too far advanced for biodiesel. The engine probably already has too far advanced timing for petrol diesel, but with the biodiesel it is struggling to compress the expanding mixture.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Consumption double

          Hello Ross,

          Cetane is easy to check if you have a cetane engine, otherwise...

          For a quick meaningful test to determine Conversion rate look at the Warnqvist conversion test

          Tilly

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          • #6
            Re: Consumption double

            I drive a Hilux Surf 1996 3L Turbocharged with 85000K. The engine is probably the same as yours, 1KZTE, the same as the Lancruiser Prado 90 series.
            I have not noticed any difference in the fuel economy at all. So it must be your fuel.
            Are you sure you have a 50% increase in consumption? It is hard to believe. Where is the fuel going? If out the exhaust it must make a cloud of smoke, a cumulonimbus of smoke! There is no way you can burn cleanly that much more fuel....unless you have hydrogen injection of course ... haha, (disregard the last comment)
            As for the timing, the 1KZTE pump is set at 0 degree from factory, and there is where it works at its best. If you go back to 'normal' with petrodiesel the problem is the fuel not the engine.
            Guest
            Guest
            Last edited by Guest; 2 August 2006, 07:12 PM.

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            • #7
              Re: Consumption double

              What did it idle like with the biodiesel?

              In order to have a 50% increase in fuel consumption the idle must have been very adversely affected. I found that if I had a c--p fuel, the idle was rough as guts, but would smooth out with more throttle as there was more fuel and a higher temperture and pressure to burn the stuff. In some cases (I'm talking bodgey dino here) I would have to turn up the idle in order for the engine not to shake itself to death.

              Even if the biodiesel was poorly converted, say only 50%, you would still have less triglycerides than a SVO conversion.

              I'm not convinced it was the biodiesel, but if you have any of the old biodiesel left over, I'd be glad to take it off your hands.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Consumption double

                Hi All

                Thank you very much for your replies. The injection timing is yet to be established but first of all I'd like to investigate the fuel quality issue.

                I've followed the link to test the conversion and have found unprocessed oil on the bottom of the jar. At least that's what I think it is. I'm reprocessing the batch as I type this but I need to ask, how much NaOH do I use when reprocessing? I used 4.5grams per litre of oil with 15% methanol first time through. With proportianatly very little left to now process how much NaOH and Methanol should I mix? Undoubtedly this is explained somewhere on the web and after I type this I will go for a better look see.

                In regard to the consumption, I really don't understand how it could use so much. It's running on petrodiesel right now and I'm well on the way to getting 800km out of the 66litre tank. I'm a little over half way through but that's about how it will end up. Last week running B100, I had topped up by now. I was looking for smoke, actually had a mate stand at the back of the car while I revved it a little. No sign.

                Anyway, I'll get the fuel right first then have another go.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Consumption double

                  hi Rossh,
                  when making bio with new oil and naoh you need 20% methanol and 5grams naoh per litre of oil. the easiest way to test quality of reacted fuel is to add exactly 3ml of bd to exactly 27 ml of methanol, mix well then let settle if no bd settles out then you have good bio.
                  cheers fantom

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Consumption double

                    First off, what did the oil titrate to? Was the 4.5grams per litre the baseline, or was it the total you used after titration. By the way, 5 grams per litre is the baseline for NaOH, then you add the titration.

                    Second, 15% methanol will give around 85% conversion, 20% is around 90+% and 25% is up around 95+% conversion. Lots of other things factor in, like temperture, agitation, sealed vessel, water in oil.

                    As has been mentioned many times before on this site and other sites. Most vehicles will work fine with 90% conversion. Heck, we have SVO users on this site - they have a 0% conversion.

                    The idea of 'quality' biodiesel is different to everybody. At this time of the year, I would rather have 85% converted canola biodiesel that hasn't been washed, over 98% converted tallow biodiesel that has been washed.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Consumption double

                      50% Extra fuel seems an awfuly high increase in consumption. I have looked at a reasonable amount of info on the web with bio and SVO and have never seen mention of such a high increase in in consumption be the vehicle running on bio or SVO.

                      I would think the physics of the engine would make more difference than wether the engine used a mechanical or electronic injection system. At the very basis of things, A given capacity engine can only burn a given amount of fuel and air cleanly and such an amount of extra fuel would have to cause a lot of smoke unless your truck has a particle filter or some other device to burn all this extra fuel outside the engine.

                      As you make no mention of any poor performance or indication the engine is burning excess fuel such as the smoke emissions, Perhaps the engine is not consuming this extra fuel at all.

                      Is there any possibility of something more simple like you have miscalculated the amount of fuel you have put in the truck or that you have made a mistake in the amount of fuel the drums you are decanting your bio from actually hold?

                      Looking on the bright side, from a cost POV, even if your truck uses double the amount of bio, you are still way ahead on what it is costing you to make as against buying petro diesel.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Consumption double

                        OK, a few things come to mind.
                        First, you should test your car with commercial biodiesel. Not sure if you can buy any bio in your corner of the woods.
                        If your fuel economy is as it should be the same than with petrodiesel, then it is clearly your fuel that is a problem.
                        However.
                        Now, I begin to doubt it is, I think, and please don't take it the wrong way, that you are not measuring your consumption properly.
                        You say in your previous post that you will get 800K out of a 66 L tank of petrodiesel with a 3L Toyota. That is simply not possible, not even if highway only driving downhill with lots of wind from the stern.
                        So perhaps you need to revisit the way you work out your km/litres.
                        Just a thought.
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                        • #13
                          Re: Consumption double

                          I agree, I'm now down to a little under quarter of a tank on petrodiesel and it's going to be closer to 700km. 800km was an estimate at about the half way mark. No matter.

                          The fuel I've got almost ready to go here now will be a better mix than the last one for sure. My guide all this time has been a book called "Simply Biodiesel", authored by a fellow in Tasmania. Very good book mostly but there's a few potholes I've managed to find, such as 15% methanol and 4grams NaOH per litre oil being enough for a good conversion. Clearly it isn't. Now, to me, that would explain the low "bang" value of the fuel I've been using from the first batch. I've reprocessed the second so it should be quite complete. I'll do the 3ml-27ml thing with methanol to confirm.

                          Just tell me when I'm having a good time. Oh, what a learning curve...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Consumption double

                            Ross,
                            I get plenty of "Bang" from SVO. I get plenty of "Bang" from 50% Biodiesel and 50% SVO and I bet plenty of "Bang" from 100% Biodiesel. Admittedly, I have an engine designed in the 60s or 70s, with >300 000km on the clock and I get around 10-11 litres per 100km (24 - 28 mpg)
                            Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

                            Current Vehicles in stable:
                            '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
                            '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
                            '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

                            Previous Vehicles:
                            '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
                            '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
                            '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
                            '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
                            '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
                            '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
                            '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
                            '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
                            '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

                            Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
                            Adding images and/or documents to your posts

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Consumption double

                              Thanks everyone for your help with this. I'll try another batch of fuel and see how it goes.

                              Cheers

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