Chaser's war on Biodiesel

[geewizztoo Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close geewizztoo]

Watch this, this is bloody funny - but don't do it like this guy:

http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a84...tractShort.flv

[Sauman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Sauman]

Re: Chaser's war on Biodiesel


Whats life without a Laff???.
Laffter is the best medicine.
Thanks for sharing mate.Was a cracker.
Keep shining ,keep shining.
Cheers
Sauman

[Terry Syd Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Terry Syd]

Re: Chaser's war on Biodiesel

I'm going to send the link on to Paul Martin (the fellow in the video).

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Chaser's war on Biodiesel

I think Paul may have already seen it. Great work Geewizztoo, glad you managed to extract the bit you needed from the episode.

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Chaser's war on Biodiesel

Hi All
This may be quite funny but I am afraid that is to close to the truth
I have seen more posts advocating the use of electric drills with a paint stirrer attached so as to mix the Meoh
That it is scarry
These devices have a commutator where the brushes are just under the ventilated area of the drill
By default these two brushes generate sparks in the process of spinning the rotor of the drill, that is how they work besides the spark generated when one presses the start trigger
An electric drill that is used to stir Methanol into an open top container that contains the oil is suicidal
A closed container using the same method would even be worse as it will explode the vessel rather than ignite the material in a place where the flames will not be contained
This is an extremely dangerous practice that must be stamped out
It is seen around the forums all to often
I cannot understand why people do not use an air driven drill powered by an air compressor that is well away from the reactor
Bunning's will sell you one of this for less than $100 and a Taiwanese kit with a drill as well as a length of hose for a further $50
Why people take the very high risk of an explosion or a fire when dealing with such a dangerous product as Methanol is beyond me
READ THE LABEL ON THE CONTAINER FELLOWS
IT IS THERE FOR NO OTHER REASON BUT YOUR OWN SAFETY
The sooner this practice is stopped the better it will be for all involved
If people do not want to spend the money they can use a plunger type paint stirrer for a miserly $10
It will do just as good a job, no sparks to ignite the stuff, at least they may be able to make another batch of biodiesel
That is instead of being admitted to a hospital's burn's unit and having to rebuilt the shed after they are discharged from there or even worse
Guys if you are using a hand held drill please stop that dangerous practice take care don't be silly
Cheers
Chris

[Alga Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alga]

Re: Chaser's war on Biodiesel

Thanks chris, I've been thinking about that and hadn't decided how I was going to do my bulk mixing. I'd thought of using a 12volt outboard motor, but your idea of a pneumatic mixer sounds really good. Maybe you could fix it permanently into a lid, sealing the whole thing.

[Sauman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Sauman]

Re: Chaser's war on Biodiesel

Chris,
Mate that is some excellent stuff that you pointed out and some spot on solutions...man you are real cool.
Yes prevention is better there cure.

Cheers
Sauman

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Chaser's war on Biodiesel

I'm going to send the link on to Paul Martin (the fellow in the video).

Hi Terry
Swinging the tongs on the day (29 meet) was a fair distance away from the spinning drill during the biodiesel making demo on the day
I am in no doubt of the presence of the commutator sparks as well as the spark from the trigger generated by the hand held drill in the hands of the
demonstrator on the day
The protagonist in that clip has an uncanny resemblance to the demonstrator on the day even though it is hard to see in that clip the resemblance with the individual standing there behind the explosion
All I could see in my mind on the day was a scene just as the video depicted
I took a walk to the toilet when the drill come out which caused a bit of a "snag" as I have to admit I did abandoned station, I also abandoned my tongs, the grill, as well as the takings
What a weakling Hey?
Upon my return I did observe that the level of carbon content of the edible goodies on offer was rather high on that batch
However all was well with the demo, another lucky escape for all

Bloody scarry stuff, not that far from the realm of reality either
It should be posted up as a very real scenario for all to see
The humor part of it should also be taken out
Cheers
Chris

[Jacka Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jacka]

Re: Chaser's war on Biodiesel

Here here Chris. I would like to be able to see the whole story which that little snippet was take from and someone should put it through and explain like chris has in PLAIN english the DANGERS that are often ignored just for the sake of sped or ease.

A pneumatic drill was for me in the begining worked a treat and could have the sparks out of the area so no threat

But yeah it has been on here several times I have seen about using an open drill for mixing of everything from meth to bio Hopefully we never lose a member due to that and some we MUST consider to be prudent if we are to start a national organisation to represent use as a body. We must ensure at all times that OH&S issues are always at the top of the pile when it comes to support and sugestions.

[Blknight.aus Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Blknight.aus]

Re: Chaser's war on Biodiesel

For you mixing motors, you can get medium speed small electric motors out of washing machines, they use the cycling of AC power to make the electromagnets do their thing to move the rotor in roundy roundy directions (ask an electrician, im a mechanic) so there are no sparks to be worried about.

On the subject of washing machines, ever noticed how the agitator in the middle moves a helluva lot slower than the little electric motor spins...

My thought for the day..

Get an old washing machine, shred most of it but keep the electric motor and the gear drive to the centerdrive of the agitator. bodge it so its stuck in gear and re assemble whats left upside down on top of your existing stiring system. Or if your using a decent drill on high speed at full noise for your stiring just attach the motor directly.

As a bonus (depending on how carefully you shred) you also get the following handy dandy items..

1. a timer switch of sorts.
2. a pressure operated volume switch that you could use to control a pump that is filling your reactor or your WCO collcting tank.
3. A bloody great colander in a watertight container that you could use as your primary filter, and on top of that it comes complete with a drain point and sometimes a non positive displacement pump that can shift quite a volume of fluid.
4. A set of microswitches of varying types (at lest 3 in most machines) that can handle 240v AC.

Hope this is inspirational to someone out there.

Dave

"In a Landrover the other vehicle is your crumple zone."

[Terry Syd Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Terry Syd]

Re: Chaser's war on Biodiesel

Chris, your message was rather cryptic, but I interpret it to be that Paul gave a demonstration at a function where you were working the barbie. Further, that Paul used an electric drill to mix the methoxide during the demonstration.

If that is correct, then I agree with you that this is a dangerous procedure.

I consider the mixing of the methoxide to be the most hazadous aspect of biodiesel production. It is not just alcohol fumes, but also the raw NaOH or KOH that can creates potential problems.

When we first start working with these chemicals we usually take various precautions, then we get complacent and take short-cuts.

I always use a set of saftey googles when working mixing methoxide. I also have a big bucket of water handy to plunge my hands or face into if some dust should get in my eyes or methoxide on my skin.

I saw one fellow who had quite a nasty chemical burn on his leg where he had smeared some NaOH and didn't realise it. By the time he figured out what the burning was it was too late.

I do not use a motor to mix the methoxide. I use a closed container to shake up the methoxide. No splashing, no fumes. During the winter the cold methanol can take some time to dissolve the catalyst, no problem, just leave the container for a while and occasionally give it a shake. You can leave it overnight to dissolve if you want.

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Chaser's war on Biodiesel

For you mixing motors, you can get medium speed small electric motors out of washing machines, they use the cycling of AC power to make the electromagnets do their thing to move the rotor in roundy roundy directions (ask an electrician, im a mechanic) so there are no sparks to be worried about.

On the subject of washing machines, ever noticed how the agitator in the middle moves a helluva lot slower than the little electric motor spins...

My thought for the day..

Get an old washing machine, shred most of it but keep the electric motor and the gear drive to the centerdrive of the agitator. bodge it so its stuck in gear and re assemble whats left upside down on top of your existing stiring system. Or if your using a decent drill on high speed at full noise for your stiring just attach the motor directly.

As a bonus (depending on how carefully you shred) you also get the following handy dandy items..

1. a timer switch of sorts.
2. a pressure operated volume switch that you could use to control a pump that is filling your reactor or your WCO collcting tank.
3. A bloody great colander in a watertight container that you could use as your primary filter, and on top of that it comes complete with a drain point and sometimes a non positive displacement pump that can shift quite a volume of fluid.
4. A set of microswitches of varying types (at lest 3 in most machines) that can handle 240v AC.

Hope this is inspirational to someone out there.

Dave

"In a Landrover the other vehicle is your crumple zone."

Hi there
All you said in this post is counter productive mate
Washing machines do not work with flammable fuel, so there is no need for any electrically generated spark suppression from the devices used to control them
Unless the water you have wherever you are is as highly flammable as Methanol
You may even have those special washing machines available at the local tip as well
It is really bloody simple Pal
AVOID ANYTHING THAT PRODUCES A SPARK NEAR METHANOL AND IT"S FUMES
That would include Your drill at "full noise" the micro switches as well as the level indicators used in older models of washing machines
As far as motors from washing machines are concerned some of them have an inbuilt switch
This switch is operated by centrifugal force to bring in the run winding after the motor has started and they do produce a good spark
THAT TYPE OF MOTOR IS A NO NO Do not use them
You want to be careful as to what switch you are using as well to turn the devices on and off
Look for a good motor plated TEFC That is the type of motor you should be looking for, it stands for Totaly Enclosed Fan Cooled
It means that at least if the thing cooks on the job it will not generate sparks
On another point
Make sure you have at least a completely sealed switch to run the cable into, include glands and use round cable to tighten them down well
That prevents fumes getting in to switch a potential hazard
Keep the switch as far as possible like 5 or more metres away from the tank extension leads are quite cheap as well as longer than that, use one
Finally talk to an electrician not a motor mechanic or you are likely to find more than your crumble zone
Cheers
Chris

[Blknight.aus Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Blknight.aus]

Re: Chaser's war on Biodiesel

Hi there
All you said in this post is counter productive mate
Washing machines do not work with flammable fuel, so there is no need for any electrically generated spark suppression from the devices used to control them
Unless the water you have wherever you are is as highly flammable as Methanol
You may even have those special washing machines available at the local tip as well
It is really bloody simple Pal
AVOID ANYTHING THAT PRODUCES A SPARK NEAR METHANOL AND IT"S FUMES
That would include Your drill at "full noise" the micro switches as well as the level indicators used in older models of washing machines
As far as motors from washing machines are concerned some of them have an inbuilt switch
This switch is operated by centrifugal force to bring in the run winding after the motor has started and they do produce a good spark
THAT TYPE OF MOTOR IS A NO NO Do not use them
You want to be careful as to what switch you are using as well to turn the devices on and off
Look for a good motor plated TEFC That is the type of motor you should be looking for, it stands for Totaly Enclosed Fan Cooled
It means that at least if the thing cooks on the job it will not generate sparks
On another point
Make sure you have at least a completely sealed switch to run the cable into, include glands and use round cable to tighten them down well
That prevents fumes getting in to switch a potential hazard
Keep the switch as far as possible like 5 or more metres away from the tank extension leads are quite cheap as well as longer than that, use one
Finally talk to an electrician not a motor mechanic or you are likely to find more than your crumble zone
Cheers
Chris

Fair enough, It was only a thought. So far as I could see the motors didnt have brushes so shouldnt have sparked.
Now I know not to try that. Although the switches I salvaged out of one where in rubber boots, and the motor although burned out had the bearing ends covered with a tight fitting plastic cap. I had assumed that if they were there to waterproof the switches then they would also be fume proof. Or is there something I'm missing here?

With the drill at full noise, I was implying that you could just use the salvaged motor from a washing machine without the drive stuff... Shoulda worded that different in the post having re-read it.

Dave

"In a Landrover the other car is your crumple zone."

[Mr Ute Member Find all posts View Profile Close Mr Ute]

Re: Chaser's war on Biodiesel

Here's my two bob's worth. The petroleum industry don't use old washing machine motors brushless or not. Things WILL go bang - only a matter of time! That's why there are pumps designed for operating in explosive atmospheres. Think about it. You may be lucky and get away with the cheap motors - for a while...
Also waterproof does not = vapour proof. Other sources of ignition should also be considered. i.e lighting, GPO's etc.

[Guest Close David]

Re: Chaser's war on Biodiesel

This sounds like one of those stories you would see debunked on that “Mythbusters” show.
While safety is important, I think it is also important not to get carried away and scare people with well meaning but overly cautious and flawed theroys..

Going back to Physics, Methanol is NOT particularly explosive or flammable which is one reason it is used in a lot of motor sport categories. In order for any sort of explosion to take place, the air / vapour mix must be in the concentrations that will allow burning of that particular fuel to take place.

It takes an awful lot of buildup for the air / Vapour ratio to reach a point where it would ignite through a spark even in a confined space. The fact is it takes 4 times MORE methanol fumes to ignite than petrol. Meth also evaporates 2-4 times LESS than Petrol under the same conditions. I have no idea what the explosive concentration of meth would be like in an enclosed space but I would guess that there well could be a lot of tears streaming down your face which may give a hint something wasn’t as it should be.

Unless a person was doing everything in a very enclosed space with no ventilation, the chances of a meth explosion is pretty unlikely. Of course some people may mix and handle meth in a very enclosed space and they should be wary of the potential dangers in what they are doing.

An easy way to preventing any sort of explosion with the meth would be to ensure a supply of fresh air in any space where one was working with it. Meth vapour is not as heavy as petrol fumes and therefore it is far more easily dispersed than petrol vapors which can pool near the floor and accumulate. As long as there is some ventilation to disperse the meth vapors, there is very little danger.

As for mixing a bucket containing meth with something that provides an ignition source, while at first this appears very dangerous, I would suggest the reality is not nearly as bad as it seems. Firstly, if the bucket or whatever is fairly full, there is little space where vapors can accumulate. Less Vapour, less pop.
If the motor, say a drill, is being used and it is on the other side of some sort of barrier, say a lid, then any vapors would be dispersed by air movement. If this wasn’t provided by natural ventilation or forced air movement, it certainly would be provided by the fan built into the drill.

If by some million to one chance there were to be enough vapours to accumulate and ignite creating a flashback to the vapours in a bucket or other relatively open vessel, the worst one could expect would be a rather low key “whoosh” rather than any sort of explosion. There would be no fire because all the oxygen in the space that ignited would be instantly consumed and as soon as the flame went out, chances are any lid would be pulled shut by the in rush of air trying to replace the consumed oxygen.

In order for an explosion to take place, there must be a pressure of sufficient magnitude to rupture ( shatter) the containing vessel. Any lid on a bucket would simply lift and the pressure would escape and that would be it. The worst thing to happen would be that you would probably lose some hair on the back of your hands and get a fright. Catastrophic explosion and fire is just not gong to happen due to the properties of basic Physics.

As unlikely as an explosion is in reality, it certainly doesn’t hurt to take precautions and treat potentially dangerous situations with the utmost respect but it is also important not to get carried away and undermine any safety issues with over the top suggestions that people aren’t going to take seriously.

Preventing an explosion when handling meth ( and any other aromatic fuel) is as simple as making sure there are at least 2 windows or doors open if you are working inside and having a fan either blowing or drawing to create a supply of fresh moving air.