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  • Dieselgas conversions

    With this new rebate on conversion to LPG I am looking into a diesel/gas dual fuel conversion. Here is a website that offers such conversions -

    http://www.dieselgas.com.au/home.htm

    I note that there is another firm in Queensland that has a much simpler system that simply dumps gas when the manifold pressure hits 5 psi (for turbocharged engines). This has limited applications, mostly for towing or up-hill climbs.

    I'm interested in the Dieselgas conversion as it monitors both manifold pressure and engine speed. This would allow the gas to come on before the turbo started providing boost. Since I tend to go easy on the throttle, I rarely get into boost, let alone 5 psi. This is also a system that could be used on the normally aspirated diesel engines.

    The systems work with biodiesel and diesel. If the gas cylinder runs out, then the engine works just like it did before. With the gas it appears that there is around a 20% increase in fuel economy (also power).

    On the Surf forum there is a fellow who purchased a similar system from the UK and installed it himself. This may be do-able if the system is inspected for compliance after installation.

    Anybody else have any further information?

  • #2
    Re: Dieselgas conversions

    I have vented my spleen on this forum many times about the Canberra Clowns and their idiotic decisions. Looks like I'm getting ready for another rant.

    I just read the Government's documentation, the rebate is only for PETROL engines. OK, what perverse logic have they come up with for this exclusion?

    If they want to increase the demand for Australia's gas and to help the average private individual in the face of rising fuel prices then diesel vehicles should be included. Hello, Canberra - WTF are you thinking? (assuming they do think)

    I'm going to give McFarlane's office a call tomorrow and find out what's going on. I hope it is just an omission in the press releases and not policy.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Dieselgas conversions

      Installing your own LPG systems is technically illegal in Australia, however, from personal experience, I am aware that it is possible and quite safe (providing common sense and the correct precautions are taken). It is also possible to find the right guy to get you a compliance plate and say that he installed it. Several vehicles were converted in this way a little over 10 years ago, before the joys of biodiesel were discovered.
      Of course I would never do this, but a friend of mine...
      I did see that LPG suffered the same sort of misinformation and consumer scare tactics as biodiesel did. I can already see all sorts of crap on the media about it being dangerous etc. I used to be quite passionate about it (as I now am with biodiesel) and I could not understand that more petrol cars were not gas.
      I think that LPG conversions are a great thing for many reasons, even though the government's latest play on this is simply a knee jerk, tick-the-first-box-on-the-long-list trick. It does dismay me to think that they have limited it to petrol only. It does not surprise me though. Hopefully your call tomorrow will reverse this.
      If you need a hand installing your LPG, I could have some useful experience/advice (of course I wouldn't know, but a friend told me...)
      Robert.
      Site Admin.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Dieselgas conversions

        Guys, really!!!
        For a start LPG and LNG is a FOSSIL FUEL!!!.
        Secondly gas internal combustion is the most inefficient engine man has yet to make. Sure the fuel is cheaper but you will burn twice as much. Gas converted engines are simply gutless which leads one to always have their pedal to the metal. The Canberra pubes rejected converting all the fleet of commonwealth cars after reading up on the costs and inefficiencies.
        And then there's the reality of what little johnny **** for brains is promoting. Change over from the blood of Iraqi children to the blood of Timorese children and save money by spending more money.??
        REALLY??? LPG means yet MORE JURRASIC CO2 HEATING UP THE PLANET, and also more excise (albeit after 2011) paid into the coffers of Canberra to be wasted on yet more WAR over fuel.
        Before the smoke had even settled in East Timor, the Timor Straight gas reserves were signed sealed and delivered to the Chinese. The only thing liberated in East Timor was a split with Indonesia over the profits.. And then to suggest justifying this action, which lead to the bali bombings, by jumping on the 3 wheeled Howard band wagon. Of all the people on this forum i have the greatest respect for you two guys?? I'm surprised at you guys. Have i missed something???
        darren leonadas
        Senior Member
        Last edited by darren leonadas; 16 August 2006, 02:41 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Dieselgas conversions

          Im with Darren on this one!! Ive had experience with lpg and its a joke. Why stuff around with an energy source with such a low energy content?????Someone made a point once about having to visit servos more when using LPG cause of there crap economy, who wants to be at servos more than they have to?? Not me I would prefere driving past!You already spend so much time waiting for the lights to go green lets waste more life. Just think of those cold nights and ur stuffing around with the stupid LPG filler and thinking in about 400km you have to do it all over again.

          L=Lets
          P=Play
          G=Games

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Dieselgas conversions

            OK guys, go back to the link I provided. That is just one source of information that is available on a DUAL FUEL DIESEL coversion. You will see something you may have missed before. That is, increased fuel economy. Something like 20%. The system also creates a much cleaner burn in the cylinder with less emissions. If you want more links, let me know.

            If every diesel engine in Australia had such a system, would a 20% reduction in fuel consumption be a good thing?

            Our society is going to have to transition to a post Peak Oil society. At the moment, virtually all of our freight is road transport. If that comes to a sudden halt, there is going to be a huge mess. Something that can allow the transition to be more orderly, is in MHO a desirable objective.

            Agreed, a gas only engine is gutless. Take a look at the link and see what power a diesel/gas engine produces. The power increases (that is consistent with more mileage).

            A biodiesel/gas engine would make great power, it would stretch the mileage on the limited amount of biodiesel that is available and it would have very much reduced emissions.

            I also agree on the 'bringing Democracy to East Timor' rant. I was well aware of the Bonaparte Oil basin long before the military action in E. Timor. If you take a look at where all the oil and gas lines go, you will see they go to Darwin.

            The Bali Bombing? Cui Bono? There is a lot about that event that puts it in the same class as the 9-11 hoax.

            The line to McFarlane's office was busy twice this morning. Perhaps he is getting some questions to his office. I'll give it a try again in a bit.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Dieselgas conversions

              I got through at the Toomoomba office and the member of staff stated "I found out yesterday that the rebate will apply to diesel vehicles". He also stated that it was for dual-fuel usage, that is diesel and gas together. As long as the vehicle meets all the rest of the criteria, the rebate will apply.

              Since he said, "I found out yesterday", I have a suspicion that they must have gotten some inquiries about the rebate applying to diesel vehicles.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Dieselgas conversions

                Maybe this link would be relevant to the diesel/ gas question.

                http://www.bankspower.com/tech_propane.cfm

                I have to say that I find a number of things stated on the diesel gas website to be flawed or at very least, highly questionable.

                This simple one attracted my amused attention for the severity of it's implications.....

                "Does the engine run hotter? No. Since more power is being produced, the engine does not have to work as hard, so will not run hotter. Exhaust gas temperatures are also cooler since there is no longer excess fuel being burnt in the exhaust system."


                Ummm, Hello! The power of an engine is dependent on its ability to burn fuel. Burning fuel produces heat...More power = more heat. That is what an engine and it's efficiency depend on to work in the first place, heat. An engine cannot produce more power and run cooler UNLESS physical properties of the engine are made to make it more efficient in it's airflow. In this case, that is specifically not what is being done.

                As for an engine working hard.... If it is putting out 100hp for instance at a certain RPM, the loadings on the internal components at that output and RPM are the same no matter what fuel is being burned to produce that power. Some stresses may be relieved on a highly loaded engine by changing to a lower gear and revving it faster as power is a function of torque and RPM but isn't the main feature of a diesel engine it's low RPM pulling power?

                The second statement of lower EGT's is also flawed. EGT is a measure of temps inside the combustion chamber primarily and also as a measure of efficiency through afterburning in the manifold. Even if the afterburning were to be reduced, a specific engine producing more power would still have a higher EGT as it would be burning more fuel and producing more heat and exhaust gas. It should be remembered though that the prime consideration with EGT is not what the temperature of the exhaust pipe is but rather what the temp of engine components like valves, pistons and turbos are which can be Catastrophically damaged by overheating.

                The statement also says that EGT's will be lower because there is no longer excessive fuel being burnt in the system. If the engine was tuned correctly, there would be NO EXCESS fuel being burnt in the exhaust in the first place. If there is excess fuel, you don't need a gas system, you just need a tune up! Also on the site they say they do not touch the amount of Diesel being delivered to the engine, the gas is just added as an extra. It would seem to me if you had excess fuel in the first place and you then add more fuel, even in another form, unless you perform some miracle, you are now going to have a shitload excess fuel! I don't see how that is going to lower EGT'S!

                Everyone knows that engines are inefficient and produce more heat from the fuel consumed than power, so more power must cause more heat. ( unless as already mentioned the engine is physically modified.)
                More heat MUST cause and engine to run hotter both in water, oil and EGT's.
                Again, simple physics tell the truth.

                These are not the only things I was able to pick up on and it is possible that there are a lot more incorrect statements being made there that a more knowledgeable person would find.
                Something I saw on the banks site made a lot of sense to me. If Diesel /gas injection worked so well, why is it not used in the trucking industry? A 20% reduction in fuel costs would be a huge saving to them (Not to mention the increase in power and lower engine wear) and who does more miles to make a conversion any more worthwhile than trucks?

                Unfortunately when I see a company making incorrect statements like these, it makes me wonder if the company really knows what they are talking about, if they are really telling the truth or just saying what their customers want to hear, or a combination of both.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Dieselgas conversions

                  David, I agree with everything you said. Some of the claims appear to be not credible, hype if you will. For example, I do not believe the claim that a diesel engine only burns 75-85% of the fuel and that the addition of another hydrocarbon fuel will some how increase the burning of the remaining 15-25% of unburnt diesel. Doesn't work that way. Perhaps if I was overfueling and then introducing NOX, then I could believe it.

                  I try to run my engine lean as it is. I have a turbo that runs 9 psi at full boost. My boost compensator stops adding fuel at about 6 psi, therefore I am just adding extra air at 9 psi.

                  I'm looking at reducing my diesel/biodiesel consumption. If I can substitute some gas into the engine for the diesel, then I would like to try it. The gas presently is selling for much less than diesel (although not as low as homemade biodiesel).

                  I've already mentioned on this forum that when Peak Oil hits that I want an engine that can burn just about anything. Being able to substitute LPG into the engine is another step in that direction. The fact that gas is presently fairly inexpensive is a bonus.

                  If I can substitute 20% of my fuel with LPG, then I have just picked up further range on my diesel fuel. On my last bush trip I got 8.6 litres/100 km. If I was using the diesel/gas combination, then that would translate into 6.9 litres/100km on the diesel.

                  The availability of liquid fuel is going to be a real problem in the near future. We WILL have petrol/diesel rationing, it is probably only a few years away. If I can 'stretch' that ration by another 20-25% by using gas, then I want to have that option.

                  Australia does have large gas reserves which will continue to produce fuel for a number of years after the liquid oil runs out. The addition of gas into engines now, will extend the period of transition into the Post Peak Oil paradigm. That may lessen the impact of the crisis we are in and perhaps give us some more time to come up with some alternatives. - It will at least give me more options.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Dieselgas conversions

                    I have to say Terry, I was more than a little surprised to see your interest in this for what I thought were the claims and benifits extoled on the Diesel/Gas website. Your explaination of why you are interested in the gas conversion is logical and thoughtful as I would expect. :0)
                    Possibly another option a gas converted vehicle may offer when fuel gets tight would be the ability to use home brewed methane gas? If you have the infrastructure built into your vehicle, all you then need to do is work on making the gas which I believe is a relatively straight forward process.

                    As for the comments on gas cars being gutless, with respect to all, I have say I find this to be a funny thing to say on a site that is basicaly about diesel's. There are a lot of comments here by vehicle owners commenting on how slow their cars are so it is not only gas cars that can be gutless.

                    A lot of this reputation about gas cars comes from the fact most people who want gas conversions want economy and untill some time back, most of the gas converters used were made for 2L engines as typical in europe not the average 4L motors found in the average aussie car. Like most things in the automotive world, it depends how you set a car up and what parts you use as to how well it does the particular thing you want it to.

                    I friend of mine owned a well worked V8 commodore running on gas that he drove around monday to friday as a taxi cab and raced at the drags on the weekends. This car has some proper performance gas carburettors on it which looked like webber carbs but were specifically designed for gas. The engine internals were specific for gas application and the engine computer was mapped for the burning behaviour of LPG rather than petrol.
                    I can tell everyone from many experiences, that car had no problem setting your eyes back 2 inches deeper in their sockets! Although an auto ( which was beefed up) this car could turn street tyres to vapour virtually at will.

                    I also saw another car, a Hoilden Statesman that featured a twin turbo engine that put out something like 1000Kw! LPG has a higher octane rating than petrol allowing higher compression ratios ( efficency) although it does have a lower calorific value than petrol but still higher than ethanol which is the other alternative fuel contendor at the moment.

                    I believe that the present standard gas converters are limited to flowing about 220Kw worth of vapour but dual converters can also be installed if more power is required.

                    Gas cars, like diesels,can be gutless or they can be ball tearers depending on what you want them to be and how you set them up. If you set up a car to be economical on any fuel, you can't expect it to be a road rocket and if you want it to be a road rocket, you can't expect it to be economical as well.

                    If a gas conversion is done properly and the right convertor is used for the engine size, performance losses are minimal.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Dieselgas conversions

                      I could not be bothered reading every little detail of of the above post.
                      A race engine running on methanol makes more power than a petrol engine but runs a lot cooler. Can somebody explain that.

                      Most diesel engines have a burn rate of about 80% and the gas acts as a catalyst so 98% of the diesel is burnt, that is what was mentioned on that site. Can somebody explain that.

                      I find it amazing to read people going on about how bad lpg is, and at the same time they are upset about people going on about how bad biodiesel is.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Dieselgas conversions

                        And another question what engine would have the lowest particulate emissions, petrol, Lpg, or diesel.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Dieselgas conversions

                          Dodge,
                          I do not believe that it is good to concentrate on only one exhaust emission, perhaps you could start a thread on exhaust emissions from engines using a variety of fuels.
                          For the record, I believe that a Diesel engine has higher particulate emissions (especially when overfuelled) than a spark ignition engine, but has lower NOx, CO and CO2 per Tonne Km travelled.
                          Tony
                          Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

                          Current Vehicles in stable:
                          '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
                          '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
                          '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

                          Previous Vehicles:
                          '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
                          '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
                          '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
                          '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
                          '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
                          '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
                          '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
                          '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
                          '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

                          Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
                          Adding images and/or documents to your posts

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Dieselgas conversions

                            Well, I was going to respond to Darren, but while I was off in the real world, everyone else has been pretty active in here!

                            I'm glad to see that people like Terry treat this with pragmatism.

                            Yes, we are a biofuels forum and LPG is a petro product (as Darren rightly points out, refined from the blood of Iraqi/East Timorese children).
                            I am saddened that the government simply knee jerks to the solution that is still in the lap of the oil companies, however, that does not mean that LPG does not have merits.

                            It is still better than petrol with significantly less emissions. I'll have to go and dig up the figures, but you will find that it competes with biodiesel for clean(er) emissions quite keenly.

                            Don't be fooled by the low energy content either. Just as biodiesel has a lower energy content than distillate, yet makes up for some of this by more effective combustion, so does LPG compared to petrol. LPG has a much higher octane rating than petrol and burns far more evenly and can make big gains in performance if the engine is properly tuned for it. It is true, though that you do get less mileage - get a bigger tank and spend less on it per litre!

                            Now, as for gutless. Many LPG conversions are done without proper attention to the tuning. Most dual fuel conversions are simply set "half way". With LPG, generally you can advance the timing between 10-18 degrees. If you are running dual fuel this can be dangerous. I personally messed with 3 different dual fuel conversions from ex-ambulances (351 V8) to old BMWs (2L 4 cyl twin carb). I eventually ended up installing a device to advance my ignition curve (yes, the advance was different dependant on the revs) as opposed to simply changing my advance at idle. It was very difficult to get this device in Oz, as it seemed that none of the professional LPG installers here had ever heard of such a thing and could not comprehend why one would be used. With proper tuning, I could pack quite a propane powered punch from the vehicle, in some cases, more power than I could on petrol. I never had it dyno tested, so it is all subjective, but the term "gutless" generally is.

                            So, to sum up my rant. I have "back in the day" extensive experience with LPG and I feel the same misgivings exist from petrol to LPG as from diesel to biodiesel. I discovered that it was cleaner, better for the engine (some of these taxis do a million clicks without a rebuild) and in a crash, safer than a petrol tank. I'm not advocating that LPG is the way of the future, but I do say that it is a positive step and we should not be so focussed on our own fuel that we rubbish others that can offer much better emissions (and security etc). So, I applaud the recent LPG incentive, but I also say, "too little too late" and "what about biofuels too"? We'd be just like the politicians if we spent all out time pulling down the other side without giving time to understand their points. We're cleverer than that.
                            Robert
                            Administrator
                            Last edited by Robert; 16 August 2006, 11:53 PM.
                            Robert.
                            Site Admin.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Dieselgas conversions

                              I was concentrating on particulate emission because after watching a documentary early this year on four corners or maybe some other program on abc showed that they are the most dangerous to human health.
                              And had also that these particles when up in the atmosphere hold more water that makes rain less frequent but when it does rain it is a larger amount, global dimming was the term used i think. I could be wrong this info was from tv and the internet.
                              And really i shouldnt have posted any of this, it doesnt have much to do with biodeisel.
                              I seen people talking about particulate filters on the modern diesel cars.

                              Do those filters reduce the particulate emissions.

                              Comment

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