Diesel engine fumigation

[Emporator Member Find all posts View Profile Close Emporator]

Hi all!

I have a strange question - apart from LPG, is there anything you could fumigate a diesel engine with that would be of benefit to power/economy/longevity etc? Steam was suggested in one article I read as a means of keeping carbon build-up at bay, but what about a flammable gas or the like?

[trekdog02 Member Find all posts View Profile Close trekdog02]

Re: Diesel engine fumigation

you may find water/methanol injection an interesting topic, worth doing some reading i think. i'm looking at a system for my hilux atm and there are others on this forum that are knowlegable on the subject and have systems in place

[Emporator Member Find all posts View Profile Close Emporator]

Re: Diesel engine fumigation

Hi guys,

I am indeed familiar with water/alcohol injection. I bought a small kit from The States (although basic, the kit which came with a 150 psi pump) which I've had complete success with. It hasn't increased economy as such, and as I understand it, to get more benefit from such a set-up the timing should be advanced slighty. When alcohol is added though, the power gains can be very noticeable, but it can knock easily if too great a percentage of alcohol is used.

I did enjoy success with the hydrogen generator, but when I powered the device using the car's alternator there was no net gain at all. Previously I was essentially cheating by creating hydrogen and oxygen gas from a truck battery I had nestled in the boot. While it worked, I had to charge the battery frequently using mains power, which almost defeated the purpose.

I was, pardon the pun, kicking the tyres on something like acetone fumes, but I think this has the potential to be pretty dangerous and damaging. I then got to thinking of a little acetylene gas which could be generated from calcium carbide tablets. Again, please excuse another pun, but I don't think that's a road I want to go down.

Just random thoughts really that I thought might have some merit...

[Emporator Member Find all posts View Profile Close Emporator]

Re: Diesel engine fumigation

Hi Dave,

I think you may be spot on there - I hate to think of the detonation acetylene may cause. That and it's probably a little too fiddly.

I like the idea of ULP fumigation - do you think it may cause too much knock? Only one way to find out I suppose...

I've got a surplus catch tank which seems ideal for the job of fumigation. I might try a little acetone in it and feed the engine with the fumes. That should keep me busy this weekend!

I had thought of getting an LPG bottle and having some kind of manual control in the cabin, but I dismissed the idea as too fiddly. I may have to re-visit the idea and nut out a solution somehow.

Thank you for the accolade Dave! As much as I enjoy tinkering, I enjoy it more so when I achieve a positive result.

I'll keep you posted.

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Diesel engine fumigation

I have considered using a LPG solenoid to control LPG fumigation into the air cleaner, activated by the kick-down switch, but other projects got in the way of that one.

Have fun with your "tweaking"

Tony

[Johnnojack Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Johnnojack]

Re: Diesel engine fumigation

I have considered using a LPG solenoid to control LPG fumigation into the air cleaner, activated by the kick-down switch, but other projects got in the way of that one.

Have fun with your "tweaking"

Tony

That is possibly a very smart way to do this Tony. Just make sure you have a small camping bottle which delivers gas LPG not liquid LPG which a car bottle does. Sure would be cheaper that the 3 or $4k they charge for gas conversion. They don't even connect the convertor to the cooling system yet charge even more than a petrol car conversion.
Just need to choose a suitable jet and set up a throttle switch to open the solenoid at near full throttle.

[Emporator Member Find all posts View Profile Close Emporator]

Re: Diesel engine fumigation

Hi Dave,

I did a little reading (as per your suggestion) on LPG fumigation and think you may be right - it might not have any effect at all. I guess I can give it a shot and see what happens. I've got a spare oil catch tank and a free afternoon this Saturday so I'll plumb it all up and see if anything happens. Nothing ventured nothing gained I guess...

I found a website that described an internal combustion engine that ran on petrol fumes alone - it said that heating the petrol "worked wonders." This got me thinking some more! I wonder if warming the petrol might have some merit to it? I think it just dawned on me why people think I have too much spare time on my hands!

I'll keep you posted.

[88300d Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close 88300d]

Re: Diesel engine fumigation

I think LPG is fumigated at a rate of 5 to 8% of the BTU rating of the fuel for NA engines maybe a little more for forced induction.

Turbo donks are best for fumigation, NA and super charged donks it is real hard to guage the load so to put less gas keep thinks safe.

I also think fumigating RUG would be of no more benefit power wise. The IP will back of as less fuel will be required therefore one would do just as well to stick it in the tank.

Browns gas generators have too higher cost in energy to produce the gas to be of benefit for economy with an accumulator it can be of great value for extra power in short load needs.

It may help with burning of fuel on cylinder walls etc.

[nath69 Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close nath69]

Re: Diesel engine fumigation

Hi All

My first post but not first visit.

Could you mist inject ULP into the ducting perhaps post intercooler or post turbo? How different would the properties be between LPG and ULP vapour?

I have considered a water meth fumigation kit but ULP is much more convenient.

Cheers

Nathan

[88300d Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close 88300d]

Re: Diesel engine fumigation

You may do just as well to put the ULP in the fuel.

[nath69 Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close nath69]

Re: Diesel engine fumigation

You may do just as well to put the ULP in the fuel.

Hi Howie

I own a RB28ETi GU patrol and I'm a bit eluctant to put ULP into the diesel tank and through the Pump and injectors.

Companies claim the Water/meth kits mist their liquid and it vaporises prior to combustion increasing thermal efficiency and improving flame front and fuel burn. Wouldn't ULP do the same, only have to ensure it does not over fuel and pool anywhere in the inlet manifold.

Regards

Nathan

[88300d Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close 88300d]

Re: Diesel engine fumigation

Hi Nathan,
i see what you are saying about putting ULP through its fuel system. I do wonder what the manual would say for use in extreme cold climates.

I have seen some people playing on the web fumigating petrol 4 petrol engines i doubt they get any advantage.

Not so for you though as it would assist in better combustion and better use of its energy value.

I just think regulating it would be very difficult so leaning to the side of caution would have it only make a small difference.

I guess your ride is a 2.8 turbo.

If it is i would do it and go LPG, i know it is expensive but with turbo you can accurately measure load and can get up to a whopping 40% advantage, power over fuel.

Being turbo with ULP the similar advantage would have to be achievable but even though you can measure load the ULP vapour i think hard to measure and regulate.

If parting with the money for LPG is too much then Meth / water would be much easier to regulate.

I am very keen to hear of your progress and its outcome if you do get into it.

"a more balanced rounder world is begins with people thinking outside the square"

[88300d Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close 88300d]

Re: Diesel engine fumigation

Ok, i dont advocate this ULP fumigation but if i was to do it this is what i would do. I will discuss it from the point of a NA or supercharged engine for a turbo its way better story.

For LPG fumigation i understand that one fumigates at a rate of 5 to 8% of the BTU value of the fuel.

I would compare the BTU value of LPG and ULP and decide my ULP fumigation rate using the LPG formula.

I would start at lower levels and work up.

I would then know how much ULP by volume and would look for a mister nozzel and high pressure fuel pump. (the same as people advocate for water)

The manufacture specification for flow rate will differ i guess, water vs fuel so you would need to test.

Even with a turbo i would start as NA and if it went well then you can really have fun, as with the turbo you can measure load. I have heard of LPG fumigated turbos getting up to 40% advantage.

I dont know much about how fuels burn but you ight well prove that ULP fumigation conversion cost is much lower and potentially more or less effective than LPG fumigation.

Sh--t i am even thinking my test vehicle now has near 40,000km it may time to let it test again.

[88300d Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close 88300d]

Re: Diesel engine fumigation

Hi Dave your post was good reading. My last post was really thinking out loud for Nathans project. I got a little too exited in my last post and dont think ULP fumigation is 4 me. I doubt except for the fun in messing around ULP fuel mix i guess would be close to as good.

I was looking into LPG fumigation but my rides are NA so wont get the 40% advantage offered by the conversion folk and doubt it will be much better than mixing ULP in the tank.

I am still keen on water / methanol as people brag it cleans.

I was going to set it up on my Merc next week when she goes back together but have decided to do it to the troll first.

I need to price Methanol before deciding on calcs but am considering two nozzles when at temp. one coming on 20% throttle and the other at full throttle. Using micro switches.

What i need to know has any one ever fitted pyrometer or oxy sensors to a vehicle that was not manufactured with them? If any one has any ideas on how to and where to get that would be great.

I dont know if i just drill and tap the manifold or make some thing from exhaust pip that dolts on after the headers. I have never even seen these sensors.

I would ideally like to get readings on gauges and RS232.

[88300d Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close 88300d]

Re: Diesel engine fumigation

You bring up some good points, i was only thinking 15ml- 35ml pm of meth and 15ml - 35ml water. double that full throttle.

I have often thought wet spray would be better 4 cleaning. I am one of those guys who pours a few litres of water down the throat @ 2000rpm before my oil change.

I do it @ op temp but have even considered if cold may be better for cleaning.

Can only do this 2 troll as the merc has 6 manifolds and without taking the filter out of the air box. I have thought of doing this just for the watering.

It is probable this method is all that is needed for cleaning.

My Merc does most of its life to and fro 4 work less then 50 to 60kmph, 2kms distance, that could be enough for the water meths to come on as the car gets up 2 temp quick. In my planning i was thinking it would be off.

On Friday the car does get up 2 35kms travelled and may do as much as 10kms in a session it also gets to get up to 80kms sometimes 4 a few minutes even 110kmph, sadly i cant legally go faster (LOL).

Other than that maybe 6 runs of 300 to 400kms trips in a year.

I am a big fan of the "Italian" tune up as one guy in a forum called it. I love to stoke my ride up and see the black smoke as i shift up. (at op temp of course).

My patrol (the sacrificial anode my test vehicle) sees more kms in a day and gets to do sufficient kms @ temp.

Also where i live we only have a few sets of lights so my rides spend little time at idle.

My troll burns about 80 litres of blend per 600kms and my merc uses about 55liters to do the same.

One of the benefits i was thinking of meths in the mix was combustible fuel entering with the air charge the water and meths i guess should help cool the charge a little.

I fancied a combustible air charge would keep things cleaner.

Measuring the exhaust was just to get an idea of what was happening, did not know exactly what i would learn. Maybe its even me not having enough computer bits as modern car owners, i am in IT (LOL).

Bless ya