Bio problems

[farmer puddles Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close farmer puddles]

Talking to a good mate who is a Toyota dealer in central-west NSW. They have a local crowd selling bio (I think Liberty??) and are having heaps of trouble with vehicles locally. I said ye like fuel filters, and he said even on brand new vehicles that have run this bio from new having lots trouble with fuel filters and frying fuel pumps. Their company and others locally are refusing to warrant the fuel pumps, etc. If vehicles are new shoudn't be any crud in fuel system to block up filters, so the fuel must be crappy?? Its terrible publicity.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Bio problems

Hello Farmer puddle

If it is true, it will be a problem with the fuel.
It would be interesting to try and find someone who has actually had the problem to talk to.
And I bet it will not be B100 either if it is a commercial seller, more likely B5 or B10
It always amuses me how there can be many reports of numerous people having had a problem until you actually try to find one.
Suddenly noone has ever actually talked to a person that really had the problem and you are unable to find anyone that has a problem.

Tilly

[farmer puddles Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close farmer puddles]

Re: Bio problems

Wondering could the crud be coming out of the underground tank that has probably had normal diesel in it for years. This guy personally has had a number of problems, he didn't say whether it was 5 or 10. He had even had a vehicle with a dead fuel pump at 5000 km since new.

[Matt Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Matt]

Re: Bio problems

Quite possible infact I recall reading / hearing from Morris who ran the biodiesel station in Sydney a while back that he had cleaned out the storage tank before putting biodiesel into it for exactly this reason. ie It would clean the crud and bring it to the surface into the tanks.

Not a good advertisement at all after the damage has been done.
Matt

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Bio problems

Hello Farmer Puddles

Something does not sound right about this.
Cars have fuel filters for just such an eventuality.
A plugged filter should be the only problem.
It is not likely to be caused by the biodiesel, perhaps he is pumping water too.

Tilly

[Sauman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Sauman]

Re: Bio problems

Here I would also question the quality of BD being sold.Has the batches been tested to standards .
I have a suspision that the oil being sold hasn't been tested.And the manufacturers are quietly evading this.Neither the retail outlets have cleaned there systems.
As tilly suggested the oil being sold might have a high water content (as most processes are using the water wash method at least in Australia).One of the reason all specs like ASTM,EN,DIN,and our standards have a mandatory water parameter to be checked.
I smell the big rat here.Asking your friend to dig deeper.
Cheers
Sauman

[Guest Close Marc1]

Re: Bio problems

Knowing the sort of petrodiesel that is in the market, if someone sells "blend" I am much more suspicious of the petrodiesel component than the biodiesel. You can stuff up your engine pump with petrodiesel quite easily by going to the wrong petrol station. What do you think that brand X will use to blend their biodiesel? BP? not likely, more like the cheapest nastiest import they can find.

[Jacka Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jacka]

Re: Bio problems

Would be intresting to see if we could get a sample of the fuel that did the damage from the tanks of these new cars to see exactly what the cause is.

WOuld be great to DUMP on a doddgy dealer from a great height to stop them saying that it is BD that is doing the damage.

But yeah Tilly as always is correct there are always 20-50 people who have problems and complain but when you go searching if your lucky you will likely find 2-3 maybe.

[Terry Syd Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Terry Syd]

Re: Bio problems

I've been to some of the 'cheap' diesel bowsers in Sydney (one in Smithfield especially comes to mind) and have received some of the worst fuel you can imagine. There are various distilling plants (I know, I worked near one) that distill the lighter hydrocarbons off of motor oil and the like. That stuff gets blended into fuel someplace else - without the customer knowing.

Some of the fuel was really bad. In order to get it to start, idle and burn better, I would add a bit of biodiesel. It didn't have to be high conversion biodiesel, I could use about 20% blend of 85% converted biodiesel and it cleaned up the problems in the first run down the block.

The stuff that goes into petrol diesel is a much bigger problem than bodgy biodiesel that may be blended into the mix.

[Gunner Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Gunner]

Re: Bio problems

The issue may not even be bad BD.
In the last couple of months we have had some really pleasant days considering it's been winter, but these have brought cracker frosts, frequently down to -4, -5 and even one -8. It's possible that the BD has solidified and blocked the filter and fuel lines while the IP continues to suck, creating a vacuum that could possibly rip seals and O-Rings, causing the pump to fail.
I don't see a problem with a servo selling BD either as a blend or B100, but in Winter they ought have some signage and info available to customers informing them of the behaviour of BD at lower temps, especially so when you are in a location where those temps are likely to be encountered. Even winterising the fuel with kero or ULP won't change the properties of the BD, which will still solidify at low temps.

[Terry Syd Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Terry Syd]

Re: Bio problems

Gunner, check out the Australian standards for biodiesel. There is no gel point or cold filter plug point.

A company can manufacture biodiesel to Austraian standards that is totally incompatable with colder temperatures.

The homebrewers can customise their own fuel. They know what the feedstock is and can take precautions. Hell, it goes into their own vehicle so they have a real interest in making to their own standards. Not so with the commercial companies, if it meets 'standards', beauty.

This was always going to be a problem that many of us saw coming a long way back. One of the suggestions was 'zones' of blending based upon average ambient air temperatures during different times of the year.

A blended biodiesel fuel in Darwin can have a lot more tallow (like 100%!) than a blended biodiesel fuel in Canberra during the winter.

The Government bowed to influences behind the scenes about these issues. There is no logic in the standards, but the tax and rebate issues clarify the point. A petrol company can import palm biodiesel from asia to blend into petrol diesel and still get the rebate. However, if an Australian farmer makes local biodiesel from soybean, which has a cetane level below the Australian standard, he cannot get the rebate. - I know which fuel I would prefer to be using.

[Jacka Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jacka]

Re: Bio problems

A company can manufacture biodiesel to Austraian standards that is totally incompatable with colder temperatures.

The homebrewers can customise their own fuel. They know what the feedstock is and can take precautions. Hell, it goes into their own vehicle so they have a real interest in making to their own standards. Not so with the commercial companies, if it meets 'standards', beauty.

Don't I know it the last couple of tank loads of VP Ingleburn fuel has been much harder to start in the morn. But the current tank load I have now is back to what it was. One turn and kick so I know it is not the loss of a glowplug it has to be the fuel quality and I am NOT HAPPY JAN.

[Guest Close Marc1]

Re: Bio problems

I noticed more white smoke with cold start, harder to start and substantial loss o milage with VP Liverpool, gone from 13Lx100K to 15 and 16Lx100K in city driving.
It's not worth it.
Who knows what they are using in the mix of their so called blend? They are not telling arent they?
No regulation, no control, that means anything goes. They could be mixing it with waste engine oil for what we know.

[Jacka Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jacka]

Re: Bio problems

I think from the sounds of it VP has done their dash at the moment till I can sort out B100 supply from elsewere.