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anths
15th July 2011, 10:48 PM
Hello all,
I have a merc 1981 300d I want to run used blended cotton seed oil, but what ratio would others recommened, it's a single tank system as per original.
I have checked the forum i was thinking a ratio of 70% oil 20%dino and 10% petrol.
I live in melbourne south east on the mornigton penisula coldest we see is maybe 10-14 deg but where i work in the dandenong ranges it gets a lot colder 0-5degC. and the car can sit 8-14hrs depending on my shift.
What ratio would safely allow me to drive to work and not get stranded?
Thanks in advance
Anthony

Jeffrey S. Brooks
16th July 2011, 12:31 AM
Hello Anthony, regardless of the vegetable oil source the most productive blend that I am familiar with is 80% veg to 20% petrol, and no diesel is required. There really is no magical quality to diesel fuel, so if you feel like donating money to the oil industry, then put as much in as you want.

anths
16th July 2011, 11:13 AM
Thankyou for that
What temp's have you found this ratio to work at any problems ?
Cheers Anthony

Jeffrey S. Brooks
17th July 2011, 12:25 AM
HI Anthony, I successfully started my 6.2L diesel engine at 0F (-18c) several times this winter without the use of a block heater. At that temperature my fuel was still liquid and fired well.

Grampiansmerc
19th July 2011, 11:46 AM
What about a two tank system?
Better for cold startup and the engine!

Jeffrey S. Brooks
20th July 2011, 06:36 AM
What about a two tank system?
Better for cold startup and the engine!Yes, blending can help with startup and keeping things liquid in especially cold climates. And, the startup fuel for a two-tank system could be a blended fuel. Also, since two-tank systems are really not effective for short haul applications, then blending is a good solution for the errands around town.

tillyfromparadise
20th July 2011, 07:04 AM
Hi Jeffery,
Was the vehicle inside or outside?
What temperture was the fuel at?
Did you measure it?
HI Anthony, I successfully started my 6.2L diesel engine at 0F (-18c) several times this winter without the use of a block heater. At that temperature my fuel was still liquid and fired well.

Jeffrey S. Brooks
20th July 2011, 03:27 PM
When I started my engine up at -18c it was outside under snow drift. No, I did not measure the fuel temp, but it could not have been more than a few degrees warmer than -18c

tillyfromparadise
20th July 2011, 06:53 PM
Hi Jeffery,
-18C for blended SVO is very impressive.
A lot of my biodiesel made from various types of veg oil starts to cloud around 0c.
What type of veg oil do you use.
Do you cold filter the oil?
What do you use to blend the WVO with?

Jeffrey S. Brooks
22nd July 2011, 08:26 AM
No, I do not cold filter. I blend WVO from various sources with petrol at 80% WVO/20% petrol. Then I let that blend settle for about 24 hours, then I drain off about 10% of the blend, which is mostly sludge, then I filter through one 1-micron 20" bag filter. My fuel remains liquid down at least to 0F (-18c), and my engine starts on that blend like it was a warm day on diesel fuel.

anths
25th July 2011, 08:30 PM
Hello jeffery and others,

would there be a problem if i started adding blended veg oil to the tank (single tank) with diesel still in it.?
Cheers Anthony

Tim-HJ61
25th July 2011, 10:06 PM
No. But blending outside the tank is best to ensure a proper mix. My friends in France turn over their fuel 6 times before they regard it as blended.

Tim

Tony From West Oz
25th July 2011, 10:21 PM
There should be no adverse effects of adding blended vegetable oil to the existing diesel in the fuel tank, provided the blend does not have so much veggie oil in it that the engine will not start from cold on it.

In other words, go slow on increasing the % veggie in the blend.

It is very embarrassing to have a "Fail To Start" when espousing, to your friends, the virtues of using veggie oil.

Regards,
Tony

Jeffrey S. Brooks
26th July 2011, 12:12 AM
Hello jeffery and others,

would there be a problem if i started adding blended veg oil to the tank (single tank) with diesel still in it.?
Cheers AnthonyI consider diesel fuel neutral in the blend. There is generally no problem with diesel fuel in the tank when adding a WVO/petrol blend. If one were to take a cautious approach to blending, then one could make an 80/20 blend of WVO and petrol and ad it to a tank of diesel fuel making the resulting solution 50% diesel fuel + 40% WVO + 10% petrol. This blend should work in any engine year round in most regions other than the tundra.

anths
31st July 2011, 08:09 PM
Thanks to all,
I went about installing a twin tank setup which i will use the main tank for blending wvo and 20ltr start up tank.
It's a home brew design which appears to be working well,
running 80/20ulp mixture proved to be a little high for the mercedes,she started running hot so i added extra oil at a guess 90/10 which appears to be fine although i have noticed when the engine is cooler it takes a little more effort to start.
It didn't take long to get into the habbit of switching the tanks a few minutes before stopping which solved the problem and fire straight away on diesel

Until i have everything sorted im using my start up tank as a blending tank as it's quicker to sort out 20ltrs than the main tank
being able to switch fuel tanks when something isnt right has proved to really helpfull no point forcing the engine if it's not happy until you can sort the ratio out properly.

next thing will be to blend the fuel in advance and let it sit

Im also planning on fitting water/meth injection to help keep everything clean and add a little performance!

Cheers again Anthony

Tony From West Oz
31st July 2011, 10:13 PM
Thanks to all,
I went about installing a twin tank setup which i will use the main tank for blending wvo and 20ltr start up tank.
It's a home brew design which appears to be working well,
running 80/20ulp mixture proved to be a little high for the mercedes,she started running hot so i added extra oil at a guess 90/10 which appears to be fine although i have noticed when the engine is cooler it takes a little more effort to start.
It didn't take long to get into the habbit of switching the tanks a few minutes before stopping which solved the problem and fire straight away on diesel

Until i have everything sorted im using my start up tank as a blending tank as it's quicker to sort out 20ltrs than the main tank
being able to switch fuel tanks when something isnt right has proved to really helpfull no point forcing the engine if it's not happy until you can sort the ratio out properly.

next thing will be to blend the fuel in advance and let it sit

Im also planning on fitting water/meth injection to help keep everything clean and add a little performance!

Cheers again Anthony
So why are you blending at all?
With a 2 tank conversion, you do not need to blend the veggie oil at all, unless you are using it in the start tank.
I assume that you have a heat exchanger in the fuel line for the veggie tank. If not, they only cost about 100 - 150 plus hose adapters (~$5 each)

Please take some photos of the conversion so we can see your handiwork.
A diagram or description of your conversion setup would also help us understand your conversion.

Regards,
Tony

Grampiansmerc
2nd August 2011, 12:53 PM
I agree with Tony, make a heater exchanger, two tank system and no more problems.... Yes having two tanks is very handy if somthing goes wrong - it is easy to swap two hoses if required.
Happy sunflower (or rice, canola ) power driving.
Grampiansmerc

anths
2nd August 2011, 05:59 PM
HI Guy's

Because im also making bio for the house heating i wanted to be able to play with everything for the minute.Get methanol has to be organised and i wanted to be able to run on what ever i had.
At the moment im getting cotton seed oil, which i cold filter .
all the solids, The heavy animal fats from that filter bag goes over to be mixed with the other average oil to make bio to heat the house.
Im running no heat exchanger on the car relying on the heat from the block and ip to heat the blended oil, I start on diesel and when warm switch to blended cotton seed, which is liquid at lower temps without the 10% blend which seems to be the happy ratio for the merc
I haven't run the system long but the engines performance has slowly increased im sure the oil is cleaning something.
when im going to stop for a while i flick the switch to diesel and start on that purging the system a cpl of minutes before.
Im using gas switchs which i have re machined the seats to allow more flow, the car also uses the original fuel and return lines only switching between tanks.

The small tank i have the blended fuel in for the moment, has a return and the whole lot goes around as per the original tank.

I tried to get a picture up but will have to resize it :)

Cheers anthony

Jeffrey S. Brooks
3rd August 2011, 12:27 AM
Two-tankers could find blended fuels a useful start-up fuel, and a useful fuel for short runs when the engine has barely enough time to warm up. Also, I have yet to find a solvent that will cause animal fat or hydrogenated oils to blend with WVO or petroleum distillates, so converting them to biodiesel should help them to blend with other biodiesel sources as well as petroleum distillates. Has anyone done this to confirm my speculation?

anths
3rd August 2011, 05:48 PM
Hello all,
Here is a picture of the set up im intrested in your comments,advice and criticism's it's not much to look at but is running very well for the moment.
Cheers anthony

Tony From West Oz
3rd August 2011, 10:18 PM
Be careful of screwing into that panel on the 300D, it is alongside the fuel tank and a sharp screw point could easily make a hole in the fuel tank over time.
It may be prudent to mount the valves on a bit of tube (or timber) and screw from the tank side into the tube (timber) to secure it to the panel.
Are you using the threaded port of the drum as the fuel delivery port?

Looks good to me, but your purge times will be very long due to the use of a long fuel pipe and a common filter for the 2 fuels.

I feel it is prudent to mount the valves as close as possible to the IP, with separate fuel filters for each fuel. Separate return lines will reduce cross contamination of fuel between the tanks, as will delayed return line switching from veggie to start tank.

Regards,

Tony

anths
4th August 2011, 12:11 AM
G'day Tony,
When I installed the valves/brackets I removed the panel and installed the brackets whilst the panel was removed from the car, they are pop riverted to the panel and clear the tank as there is foam which pack's the panel out from the tank i was worried about the same thing :)
your correct about the purge time/distance that could be an issue as there would be no doubt a small perctent of fuel would be cross contaminating.

Would the contaminating be an issue at the small amounts

i am using the threaded point of the drum which means there will always be fuel below that point. 1ltr-2ltr
The return is through the lid with a pipe another 4" further down.
And the tank dosen't sit there i have made a bracket to secure it!:D

What are the benifits seperate fuel filters..?
Cheers Anthony

Alga
4th August 2011, 08:01 AM
G'day Tony,
When I installed the valves/brackets I removed the panel and installed the brackets whilst the panel was removed from the car, they are pop riverted to the panel and clear the tank as there is foam which pack's the panel out from the tank i was worried about the same thing :)
your correct about the purge time/distance that could be an issue as there would be no doubt a small perctent of fuel would be cross contaminating.

Would the contaminating be an issue at the small amounts

i am using the threaded point of the drum which means there will always be fuel below that point. 1ltr-2ltr
The return is through the lid with a pipe another 4" further down.
And the tank dosen't sit there i have made a bracket to secure it!:D

What are the benifits seperate fuel filters..?
Cheers Anthony

Just place an in line throw away filter on each tank line before your change over, then you will not have contaminates for each different fuel in your filter after the change over, it's a safety precaution and one well worth taking. Use Butterfly clamps for your filters as they are easy to work with and if you do have a problem, you can quickly disconnect then or change a filter in a minute. Have your start tank if possible above the changeover switch, then if you get a blockage in the filter or lines, you change the filter and gravity fill it to remove the air.

I agree with Tony, out your changeover as close to the main filter/ IP as possible to reduce purge time. You could also put in a bypass for your return and loop it back to after the change over, switch it when you are changing over to dino/BD and back to your return when switching to VO. I take out my return lines and loop them, the reason I think they use them is for cooling the rotary IP for proper lubrication, but VO does that anyway and a short stunt on a return line wouldn't hurt. Saves a lot of hose and potential problems, distance and sophistication can increase the problem potential quite a bit.

anths
4th August 2011, 12:45 PM
I thought the idea of the return is to allow excess fuel and any air picked up through the system to return to the tank so there is always a constant clean supply.
using the return as a supply is a fantastic idea but i guss bleeding the system would be a pain as any air would be re circulated around the lift pump and ip ?

Tony From West Oz
4th August 2011, 09:39 PM
I prefer separate filters to allow me the option, if I have an issue with one filter being blocked, of switching to the other fuel and driving until it is convenient for me to replace that filter.
Inline pre-filters for each fuel are a good preventative measure, taking out the biggest contaminants before they reach the main fuel filters.

If you use the mesh type ones (like should be in the 300D already - before the fuel pump) then these can be blown backwards by mouth to clear them enough to continue. I prefer to replace them, taking the blocked one home to clean thoroughly. I have some which have been cleaned several times. They are also only $5 - $7 each from a filter specialist.

I also prefer separate fuel pumps for the same reason. I use a Chinese copy of a Holley Blue fuel pump as my start tank fuel (which normally contains a 50% biodiesel / veggie oil blend) Unfortunately, this pump is not any good for straight veggie oil.

I hope this helps,

Tony

Alga
5th August 2011, 08:38 AM
I thought the idea of the return is to allow excess fuel and any air picked up through the system to return to the tank so there is always a constant clean supply.
using the return as a supply is a fantastic idea but i guss bleeding the system would be a pain as any air would be re circulated around the lift pump and ip ?

The cleanest fuel would be that returning from the injector overflow as it has past through all filters, as for the air that's true a return takes any air out of the system. However diesel engines are designed to handle a certain amount of air at times without problems, It's the constant supply of air which creates problems and you can always bleed any excess out through the filter bleed nut. I have a 2lt start tank, which gravity feeds to the changeover and in line filter, so it's easy to remove air at that point when you have to switch over for some reason other than purging.

Don't worry with a bit of experimentation and lateral thinking, you'll work out a system that suits you, good luck.

anths
5th August 2011, 11:52 AM
G'day
Thankyou Tony and Alga for your advice,So far i have really enjoyed myself on this journey it's becoming a new hobbie for me!
Lastnight's sleep or lack of due to a few new idea's and tweaks running around my head because of you two :D

The system already has a pre filter infront of the merc prefilter which i installed after we had a bad batch of fuel when we first purchased the car so it runs the cheapo filter then the merc pre lift and onto the canister would you still suggest a filter for both tanks..?

I believe i know what is needed and perhaps this isn't really about the topic "what blending ratio..?" as it more about my build and maybe it needs it's own?

Cheers to everyone so far
Anthony

Tony From West Oz
5th August 2011, 10:10 PM
Anthony,
Ditch the prefilter before the Stock prefilter - buy 2 more of the mesh style prefilters and keep them in your car. Buy some "Butterfly" style hose clamps for either side of the stock prefilter - these can be operated by hand without any tools, so replacing a prefilter is as easy as can be.
Don't dispose of the blocked prefilters, back flush them with air (I blow them back with air from my mouth) then wash in a weak caustic solution (detergent would probably work just as well), then rinse in clean water and dry in the sun until no water droplets are visible.

Continue your journey and HAVE FUN, that is what this is all about - enjoying yourself.

Regards,
Tony
PS, search for my early post on converting the Fatmobile.

MR300TD
6th August 2011, 12:47 AM
Please excuse my ignorance on this topic, but is it possible to run an unmodified W123 300TD on a WVO/Petrol blend, in the quantities discussed in this post. I have never blended, so am curious.

Tony From West Oz
6th August 2011, 02:05 AM
My wife's W124 300D ran happily (without any modification) on a 15% petrol / veggie oil blend for several years before we bought it off a friend.
Blend ratios are climate / season specific and should be varied to suit your conditions at various times of year.

Regards,
Tony

anths
6th August 2011, 10:25 AM
So far my 81 300d has been running a blend of 15 % without any problems but again i start on diesel and switch across to avoid any cold starting issues.
At 20% there is no sounds of detonation but it did show signs of running hotter amazing the difference 5% makes to the blend
yesterday i muddled my drums up and she ran 100% but she was down on power and response which comes down to thickness/heat of the oil and the fact it was veg oil not cotton seed which is thinner!
Cheers Anthony

MR300TD
6th August 2011, 10:58 AM
That is incredible, I have been into biodiesel for a long time know and never knew about blending.

Am i right in thinking (I was up very late reading) that blends vary between 5%-20% season & climate depending. If the engine runs hot and has detonation issues back off the blend, if there are starting issues or the car is underpowered increase the blend. Also make sure the blend is thorough and allow to settle.

All my oil is cold filtered using the cold upflow system, i also pass through a few filters, the end result is oil (cottonseed) that is like new.

I love biodiesel but really do not feel comfortable working with methanol even if i am very cautious. I think i am going to have to make a few small blends and see how the old wagon goes.

Cheers.

tbird650
6th August 2011, 03:29 PM
blends vary between 5%-20% season & climate depending
It appears that it suits some vehicles better than others. My Hiace for example runs well for the first half an hour or so or till fully hot.
This with 10% -20% ULP where the symptoms are power loss and harder hot re-starts. I've ignored the issues for a long time because it's the cheap, easy way to blend.
Possibly this suits short runs where the engine doesn't get the full heat soak. I've been monitoring injector line fuel temps and it seems that issues start once the temps go over 40'C or so.
Also this practice may suit vehicles with more airflow in/around the engine bay, keeping IP and injector lines cooler. My Hiace is positively claustrophobic in there! I almost need to stand on my head to work in that space!
I'm currently backing off my ULP blend content and may choose a low% but only if there's no unwelcome symptoms.

Detonation is not an issue with diesels because the cylinder can't fire before the fuel gets there! Once the fuel is injected, that's when we want it fire anyway. Unlike a petrol engine, a diesel engine's pistons only compress air.... at the firing point, the fuel is added.

anths
6th August 2011, 09:47 PM
G'day all,
detonation in diesel can also be refered to as knocking, what i have found with my merc so far and i live on the mornington penisula se of melbourne no starting issues when hot,but i do start on diesel when cold or overnight.
cotton seed oil 15% works extremely well
Veg oil 20% needed for similar performance

I have slowly secured a few shops who will supply me with cotton seed oil and the merc runs a lot better on this as the vicousity appears to be thinner than that of the veg oil.
If i thin veg down further with more ulp she will run hot so my conclusion today will be cotton seed for the merc where possible:)

Cheers anthony

Johnnojack
7th August 2011, 12:54 AM
G'day all,
detonation in diesel can also be refered to as knocking, what i have found with my merc so far and i live on the mornington penisula se of melbourne no starting issues when hot,but i do start on diesel when cold or overnight.
cotton seed oil 15% works extremely well
Veg oil 20% needed for similar performance

I have slowly secured a few shops who will supply me with cotton seed oil and the merc runs a lot better on this as the vicousity appears to be thinner than that of the veg oil.
If i thin veg down further with more ulp she will run hot so my conclusion today will be cotton seed for the merc where possible:)

Cheers anthony

Anthony what do you call vegetable oil? Cottonseed oil is vegetable oil.

From my experience cottonseed oil is one of the thicker oils (has a higher melting point). Canola, rice, soy, sunflower safflower and olive oil are all thinner than cottonseed oil and are all known as vegetable oils. Palm oil is one vegetable oil that is 'thicker' than cottonseed. There are others but I can't think of them at the moment. All oils derived from plants are vegetable oils.

tbird650
7th August 2011, 09:39 AM
detonation in diesel can also be refered to as knocking
Diesel knock usually ends up being a timing issue. Otherwise it could be unburnt fuel left over from a previous cycle or fuel introduced by other means.

In my experience diesel knock has occurred when the injectors become badly coked up. This sounds positively terrible! Cleaning the injectors cures it, but finding a set up that maintains injector cleanliness is the key.

Injection timing will cause the knocking too and fuel viscocity plays a very important part. Bosch VE rotary pumps rely on fuel pressure to hydraulically actuate the timing control. In short, the fuel lift pressure will be higher if the fuel is thicker, causing more advance. This is more noticeable when the engine is cold.

anths
7th August 2011, 01:03 PM
Cheers johno and tbird,

The supply of cottonseed oil i get runs perfect the other 1 must be a blend of unknown origin this is what I was refering to as veg because i suspect it's conola/rapeseed I think i will call it by it's name to avoid confusion "sorry"
still on a learning curve here so bare with me but I had a thought does the product "foods" that are cooked in these oil alter it's thickness
All my oils are cold filtered the same way but this one place requires a lot higher blending ratio than the cottonseed for the merc to run the same.
Johno you said cotton is thicker than conola yet im running a higher blend ratio so im a little stumped.

Tbird your 100% correct
unless it's a "catd355e" like we have at work thats there character they knock :D

Cheers boy's im learnig heaps thankyou!
Anthony

MR300TD
7th August 2011, 03:30 PM
Today i made up a 15% blend, will run it in the car and see how it goes,

I already had 15 liters of diesel in the tank so ratios are:

Diesel (15 Liters)
WVO (Cottonseed) (aprox 8.5 liters)
ULP (aprox 1.5 liters)

I will run the tank down a bit and top up 10 liters at 15% blend at a time.

So far the car feel the same as before. I went for a good stomp and notice no difference in performance.


Interesting note, the mercedes owners manual for the 300TD states:

"Should standard gasoline have to be used for blending, never exceed a proportion of 30%. Premium fuels must not be used. The lower flash point of the supplementary fuels increases the danger of explosions.
Engine power may drop according to the proportion of supplementary fuel. For this reason, keep percentage of fuel added to the minimum necessitated by the ambient temperature. Even at temperatures of less then -25'c the proportion of supplementary fuel must not exceed 50%"

Johnnojack
8th August 2011, 09:10 PM
Cheers johno and tbird,

The supply of cottonseed oil i get runs perfect the other 1 must be a blend of unknown origin this is what I was refering to as veg because i suspect it's conola/rapeseed I think i will call it by it's name to avoid confusion "sorry"
still on a learning curve here so bare with me but I had a thought does the product "foods" that are cooked in these oil alter it's thickness
All my oils are cold filtered the same way but this one place requires a lot higher blending ratio than the cottonseed for the merc to run the same.
Johno you said cotton is thicker than conola yet im running a higher blend ratio so im a little stumped.

Tbird your 100% correct
unless it's a "catd355e" like we have at work thats there character they knock :D

Cheers boy's im learnig heaps thankyou!
Anthony
You are absolutely right, cooking chicken thickens the oil, if it is a bit warm the chicken fat seems to stay in the oil, making it thicker than it would normally be.

MR300TD
10th August 2011, 08:54 PM
Since i started blending I have noticed that my car is not happy, it started off well but as i have got all the old fuel out of my system and have been running a 15% blend the car has started running hotter and does not start well at all, power is down and i have lost about 2kms/liter. So not sure if this is for me, i feel like the oil is still too thick and i am not really keen to dilute it down anymore then 15%.

Shame as i was looking to get away from using methanol in the biodiesel process.

The journey continues.

tbird650
11th August 2011, 03:57 PM
MR300TD
It's starting to point toward 15% ULP being to much for your application.
That is certainly too much % for my Toyota. Others seem to be experiencing varying results. There's obviously lots of factors... like the colder the ambient temps, the higher % it can tolerate or the longer the window it will give good power for till the heat plays havoc with the ULP content. Also longer runs are going to show the symptoms more than short squirts around town.
I recommend you reduce or eliminate the ULP content.

anths
11th August 2011, 10:07 PM
The last cpl of days my wife has forgotten to flick back to diesel to start in the morning.
No problems except the merc doesn't like to idle to it's warmed right up.
it hasn't not started nor shown any signs of hard starting,just the idle,
When i first started having a "go" blending i started at 20% yes it ran hot but any ratio under that all is well.
I will be making a few further mods later on we are averaging around 120-130km per 20ltrs of blended.
The merc has 2 seperate water controls for the right and left heater for the windscreen 1 side will be "T" to supply both cores and the other will operate a heat exchanger, that way i can adjust the flow and heat to the oil and see if this improves the performance without the petrol becoming a vapour.
Cheers Anthony

Jeffrey S. Brooks
11th November 2011, 12:38 PM
That is incredible, I have been into biodiesel for a long time know and never knew about blending.

Am i right in thinking (I was up very late reading) that blends vary between 5%-20% season & climate depending. If the engine runs hot and has detonation issues back off the blend, if there are starting issues or the car is underpowered increase the blend. Also make sure the blend is thorough and allow to settle.

All my oil is cold filtered using the cold upflow system, i also pass through a few filters, the end result is oil (cottonseed) that is like new.

I love biodiesel but really do not feel comfortable working with methanol even if i am very cautious. I think i am going to have to make a few small blends and see how the old wagon goes.

Cheers.I have been running 20% ULP in my waste canola oil blends for about 5 years and have only noticed that the engine does not seem to have as much power climbing the hills, and no over heating or vapour-lock. So, in the last month I have been experimenting with increasing the % of ULP. At 35% ULP my engine runs like a hot rod, but it does not get hot. It just glides up the hills. Also, emissions are definitely down. The exhaust pipe emits no smoke at all even with the peddle to the metal on a hill climb.

smithw
11th November 2011, 05:11 PM
Hi Jeff
Just a question, have you ever tried to do anything with used transformer oil? Years ago my father worked at a power company and they had a massive amount of the stuff and had problems disposing of it. Its a very light mineral oil, but can contain some nasty PCB etc.

Jeffrey S. Brooks
12th November 2011, 12:45 AM
Hi Jeff
Just a question, have you ever tried to do anything with used transformer oil? Years ago my father worked at a power company and they had a massive amount of the stuff and had problems disposing of it. Its a very light mineral oil, but can contain some nasty PCB etc.Hi smithw, in the USA PCBs were removed and disposed of about 30 years ago, so there are none in transformer oil here. I have not experimented with transformer oil, but I am aware others on alternative diesel fuels forums have and have found it can indeed be blended with petrol and other solvents, and it works just fine in a diesel fuel blend.

anths
4th March 2012, 04:42 PM
HI guys
i started stripping the old girl out of her conversion bits and pieces and found a few things of intrest.
Every time i changed the secondary filter it had a jelly like substance in it.
I was blending 15 petrol to 85 veg oil,mixing it up and I would leave it for a few days,the last inch or so of fuel remained in the mixing drum because when i poured it into the tank i wanted to avoid the jelly like substance which was present.
I would filter before pouring into the tank,my blending tank in the car has been there with 10ltrs of blended fuel for 5mths,when i looked at it today it had a thick jelly substance in the bottom with little brown specs,the secondary filter had 20 mintues use and was full of it!
i suspect there is a reaction with the diesel start up fuel and blended veg oil OR when wvo is blended with petrol the mix will continue to drop laquers ect out of the brew.

Any thoughts ?
cheers Anthony

Jeffrey S. Brooks
5th March 2012, 12:03 AM
It looks to me, Anthony, that your process was not as effective as it should be in removing the sludge at the bottom of your blending tank. I have a bottom drain on my blending tank, and I drain sludge from it every 12 hours until the fluid runs thin and translucent. And, I find that I need to do that several times to remove all of the residues. It seems that the residues cling to the sides of the settling tank, so more will show up. I keep draining sludge until I find none, then I filter down to 1-micron, and I pass my fuel blend through 2 y-traps which trap and concentrate residues that will not drain out of my blending tank.

anths
5th March 2012, 07:35 AM
you say" I drain the sludge every 12 hours " this is my point,
regardless how many days you settle,how man microns you filter down to there is an on going reaction that is happening until you use the fuel, thats why its forming in the fuel filters,main tank and settling tanks.
Cheers Anthony

Jeffrey S. Brooks
6th March 2012, 12:30 AM
Anthony, there are two sources of soot in WMO. One source is suspended free carbon. I recently read that WMO can suspend free carbon at 20%; by weight of its volume. Just blending petrol with WMO will cause that free-carbon to begin to settle, but free carbon is only slightly more massive than the WMO medium that it is in, so it can take days to weeks for all of the suspended particles to settle out.

There is a second source of free carbon in WMO, and that is what is in solution. This source precipitates out only under differential solubility. By adding WVO at 50%, most of this dissolved free carbon will precipitate out. It too can take days to weeks to settle out. This is why I drain sludge about every 12-24 hours from my settling tank. I typically drain off about 25%-50% of a WMO blend to get to the translucent blend.

I then take the black, thin component that I drained off, and add WVO at equal parts to it, then settle it for about a week to a month to extract 3/4 of the volume as translucent blend

peter1
6th March 2012, 06:51 PM
typically drain off about 25%-50% of the blend to get to the translucent blend.


I'll just ask about the bit that I can fathom from that post.

What do you do with the 25-50% your drain off?

anths
6th March 2012, 07:08 PM
just a further point to my previous post I am "not" using waste engine oil I am blending waste veg oil i dont want that issue to be confused....further note i removed the fuel tank from the car today,the diesel start up tank has been contaminated with veg oil but as Tony suggested I would get this.....BUT no jelly was evident nor contamination as found in the blending tank.
JSB: the carbon you talk about in wmo could also exist in waste veg oil from burnt foods and surgers im wondering if this is the settlement im finding but dosen't explain the clear jelly substance through out the system ?
if i had to seperate the ratios your talking about at the end of the week i would have very little blend remaining to use ?
Cheers Anthony

Jeffrey S. Brooks
6th March 2012, 11:32 PM
I'll just ask about the bit that I can fathom from that post.

What do you do with the 25-50% your drain off?First, I need to clarify that it is only WMO blends that I find need so much sludge drained off. Secondly, I just put the drained sludge into a sludge container, then I put the dirty petrol from back-flushing my filters into that bucket, and let it sit for a few weeks. When I am ready to make another batch of fuel I pour of the translucent portion of that sludge bucket on top of the next batch of waste oil, which in most cases is WVO. The part that I can reclaim is typically 75%, so there is little sludge left to dispose of.

just a further point to my previous post I am "not" using waste engine oil I am blending waste veg oil i dont want that issue to be confused....further note i removed the fuel tank from the car today,the diesel start up tank has been contaminated with veg oil but as Tony suggested I would get this.....BUT no jelly was evident nor contamination as found in the blending tank.There are a number of reports of jelly-like contamination in the fuel tank of blenders. Anyone who puts a petroleum distillate on top of WVO, VO, or biodiesel is blending, whether they know it or not. And, doing that in the fuel tank can cause components that are not compatible with petroleum distillates to precipitate out of solution in the fuel tank, which could produce a jelly-like contamination in the fuel tank. Therefore I recommend anyone who is blending to do that blending in an external tank, and give the blend at least 24 hours of settling, then have a drain valve on that settling tank, so that the precipitates can be removed before filtering the blend into the fuel tank.

JSB: the carbon you talk about in wmo could also exist in waste veg oil from burnt foods and surgers im wondering if this is the settlement im finding but dosen't explain the clear jelly substance through out the system ?The amount of precipitates that I tend to remove from my WVO blends is no more than 10% of the total blend, and I can typically collect all of the precipitates together in a bucket and reclaim most of it as fuel after a week to a month of settling.

if i had to seperate the ratios your talking about at the end of the week i would have very little blend remaining to use ?
Cheers AnthonyAs above, WMO blenders only lose about 10%, while WMO blenders can lose as much as 50%; however, in both cases the sludge can be collected, and settled longer to reclaim most of the sludge as usable fuel. The sludge just requires more settling time that is all, because most of the precipitates are solids.

anths
7th March 2012, 07:36 AM
i was blending in two 20lr containers ,allowing to settle atleast another 2 days prior to needing the fuel,the original mercedes 300d tank was used for start up and a plastic tank for running around, so i guess in practice i was doing everything right,but something else is going on ,other people on the forum who blend don't seem,nor report these problems.

tbird650
7th March 2012, 09:26 AM
You can still get the stuff falling out even if you do everything right. Settling for a while, 1 micron filter, etc and the stuff can still fall out in the filter and tank etc.
I think it's to do with heating and cooling of the oil. I suspect the problem to be worse with metal tanks, possibly the reaction with the metal or the fact that it cools the fuel more quickly.
I've noticed a big difference with plastic tanks in that there's no build up like I saw in my steel tank. The steel tank ended up being a nightmare to clean out. With the plastic cubies I used, all I got was sediment.

anths
7th March 2012, 09:45 AM
Thanksyou TBird650 you have experianced exactly what i have Im not alone :)
Cheers
Anthony