40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

[Tim-HJ61]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

As a moderator, all we ask is that the discussions don't descend into personal acrimony and insults and stick to the theme of the forum. Labouring the point is only heading the wrong way.

Critiquing an attempt by a group of keen Gen y's to "start a conversation with their peers" as I recall Bob called it, is stretching the boundaries of the purpose of the forum.
Critiquing the technical aspects of a group of keen Gen Y's wanting to drive from Tassie to Norway on BioFuel IS within the boundaries of the forum.

We've all got different reasons for being interested in biofuel - some purely environmental, some purely economic, some purely technical and all variations in between. Accept the differences - at the end of the day we all mess around with oil and cars, that's a common thread.

The last thing I want to be bothered with is to shut down the discussion or start giving time outs. Just keep it civil, non harping, respectful and accommodating of difference.

I posted this on 26th July in this thread.

A couple of recent posts have been deleted for breaching this earlier gentle reminder.

If you want to give your opinion about the business aspect of this thread, PM whoever you think needs to know your opinion or answer your questions.

Keep comments on the forum civil.

Tim
Moderator

[SUZUDDIS]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

I'm not sure if it's the roaring fire, the red wine or the pictures but that looks funny.
Now we're talking. for some reason Hindenburg came to mind.

not a hilux or Landy but I'm sure brown gas and a Landy look just as funny. A hilux should be able to carry 265 KG's of wood ????

Enjoy the fantastic weekend .
Michael

[tillyfromparadise]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

Hi Bob,
I think they are talking more along the lines of thermal depolymerization

Or you could always store the wood gas in a bag

[bob@thegreenwayup.com]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

Now that we're on to constructive talk about renewable fuels. Looking at an option other than biodiesel; let me share this link with you. I'm sure most of you have seen this, but I hadn't when I was doing my research before the GWU trip; using biomass to power a vehicle. Now I'm not condoning this fuel source, or encouraging it's use, or saying it's great, etc etc - let this be a completely neutral post from me. I'm just saying that I briefly looked at it as an option - but found bio better suited for us.

The biggest problem I saw with using a wood gas generator was regulating the process. We weren't gonna be just highway driving; we had cities to deal with and countries with extreme traffic to deal with - our engine revs would be all over the place. Although possible, trying to match the rate of gasification with the avg engine consumption requirement was going to be difficult. Yes you can regulate the process, but there is a definite and long lag between command and response - with a road vehicle, by the time your command setting has been reached you're most likely going to require another...

However, I did look at biomass as a possibility for the boat we built - putting in an old petrol motor instead of going bio (yes, we should have taken a sail boat - but done before and too boring for telly - and most likely wouldn't attract enough criticism in online forums...) For our boat crossing, we would have required pretty constant engine revs, thus giving biomass decent potential.. However, on our planned leg from Darwin to Indonesia I roughly calculated that we'd need 265kg of wood + the apparatus... too much, idea thrown out.

Here's some thoughts I put down a couple of years ago if you're interested to read... (please don't pull it to pieces, just thoughts I had evaluating the possibility of biomass... not proof read)

Energy from Biomass. The gasification process can be used to convert wood, amongst other organic carbonaceous materials, into carbon monoxide, hydrogen, methane and carbon dioxide. This mixture of gas, known as syngas, can be used to power an internal combustion engine. Commonly known as a Wood Gas Generator, this biomass power plant has a history of successfully powering vehicles used in specific applications, predominantly in vehicles delivering relatively constant power output, such as tractors. This power plant is not reliant on fossil fuels, provides fuel for most Otto Cycle engines, delivers high efficiency and is clean burning. However, one major drawback of using gasification to power motor vehicles is the inability to stop/start the process and the slow reaction times to power output commands. This makes powering a standard vehicle by gasification very difficult, given the constant fluctuations in engine revolutions per minute and changing engine load requirements. This system also requires approximately 2840 KJ of energy to power a standard vehicle 1 km, or approximately 310 grams of wood per kilometre. Applying this rough approximation to the longest sea leg on the Green Way Up route of 240 NM, 265 Kg of wood (including 20% contingency) would be required to provide sufficient endurance. With the addition of the gasification system, this load is impractical for the expedition vessel. Biomass offers other sources of energy impractical for an expedition, these include:

• The Fischer–Tropsch process can be used to convert syngas into liquid fuel. However, this would require a separate system in addition to the wood gas generator, already determined impractical. The generic name for this fuel is Renewable Diesel.
• Anaerobic Digestion produces a biogas (predominantly methane and carbon dioxide) from biodegradable material which can subsequently be used to power turbines. However, this process yields relatively low amounts of energy per weight volume, thus making it impractical for use on a vehicle.

[tillyfromparadise]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

Too late Michael. In episoe 7 they found the Mountain of best quality WVO hidden in the Charleville Tip.

Just don't tell anyone where the good oil is located.

Michael

[peter1]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

One of our WA mob is in China at the moment, helping them produce Biodiesel and getting supply and plant sorted to replace big diesel gensets in big hotels in Africa. He was talking about how much more advanced China is with digesters and alternative fuelling. Might be worth seeing what Dr Google comes up with if you can poke around China for a bit.

Is there a waste oil source in africa?
I would imagine the hotels don't generate nearly enough to fuel their generators for any worthwhile percentage so where does the balance come from? In a place where food or fuel really would be an issue, I hardly see this as any sort of feather in veg fuels cap.
The reality is that Bio is more harm to the environment on commercial levels that just using plain fossil fuels. Apart from sourcing the oil and what is invested in the production of that, the Chemicals which are also oil linked and the energy to produce it make it about a 1:1 proposition at very best.

Given the energy and resources invested in making the stuff and the questionable waste and leftovers in the entire production chain, Bio is still not in anyway anything but a detriment on a commercial level.
What your friend would be a lot better doing is working to make a processor from the Hotels waste.
There are numerous feed sources being garbage and food scraps for a start which could produce gas very effectively in a warm country.

To keep pushing Biofuels IMHO is a detriment to the environment. Sure its easy but it's far from the best alternative by a long shot. Oil is limited, garbage is certainly not. Making more oil is highly detrimental to the planet if you look at it as a whole. Removing or recycling garbage certainly is not and has 100 times more direct and flow on benefits that Veg fuels could ever dream of.

There is a fortune waiting to be made for someone to come up with a garbage to fuel processor which would not be out of the realm of having one at home for the majority of people if it were developed right I don't think.

[250downunder]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

"A lot of mechanics when they see a problem (and we can all attest to this) even entirely remote to the fuel system, will be told the old adage "well thats the crap fuel youve been runnning. You wont make another 1000 ks on that sh.t". 0

And a lot of the time they are right! Hastily made Bio, sometimes unwashed or at best, poorly washed and dried, is often the culprit. Remember, they only see problems associated with the running of Bio. They don't see injector pumps that have been run for many years on carefully processed Bio because they don't have problems.

[250downunder]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

" Where does one find this tv episode ?"

On PAY TV. Look for a big satellite dish behind a pub !!

[Tim-HJ61]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

Thanks Cade

I agree.

When Tony and I do displays for WARFA, our take away line is "there ARE alternatives to fossil fuel". We show them how veggie oil can be used, and of course there are others too. But The first point has to be so simple, there are alternatives.

By the way, I think you hair looks nice today. :-)

Tim
Happy Moderator

[Captaincademan]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

Hi Bob,

I take your comments on board, and tone is an important thing to be able to capture in written text. perhaps I didnt convey the tone of intent too well. When I wrote my latest input to the tennis match between yourself, tilly and peter, I was actually trying to be pretty level. But anyway enough of that.

with regard to trying to find a better alternative, I was trying to (not so successfully) get across that Bio has been around a long time. quite often people will just learn about it and go "oh my god, heres the answer to the worlds problems, I want to tell everyone". well we both know thats not the case.

You may not realise it, but for the most part Biodeiselers, blenders, SVO users constantly struggle for credibility in the public eye. For the most part, we largely dont care. But when some of us come up against a hurdle we cant solve ourselves (like an IP rebuild for instance) because the individual doesnt have the know-how for what ever reason, its so very difficult to find a mechanic / diesel fitter / specialist that isnt going to sabotage our pump by deliberatly putting in the wrong seals (that happened to me it turns out), not caring about the rebuild becuase he thinks we are all stupid etc, or even flat refusing to warrant his workmanship.

From what I can tell the vast majority of mechanics, both proffesional and backyard, all hate biodeisel largely through ignorance and propaganda.

A lot of mechanics when they see a problem (and we can all attest to this) even entirely remote to the fuel system, will be told the old adage "well thats the crap fuel youve been runnning. You wont make another 1000 ks on that sh.t".

So my point is that your very public fails have not helped in that department. They have however done the complete opposite, in that it has probably dissauded a heap of wannabes from giving it a go and thereby not depleting the oil reserves out there. well done on that front.

I am not suggesting that because of the fact that Bio isnt the worlds saviour that you should give up and go "oh well, I tried". quite the opposite, I think that your efforts would be best pushed in a more success-likely direction thats all.

No one here has disputed the fact that you are good at gettign attention. We usually just get attention from a forum moderator.

I am guessing that your overall breif / mission statement / cause etc would be to better the world through showcasing alternate means of fuelling transport? if thats the case, I am not convinced that Bio fits that bill thats all.

There have been so many bio plants come and go in recent times, and none (well maybe very few) of them manage to turn a dollar. They generally fail pretty quick. The fuel costs more than Deisel to produce and sell enmasse.

So grab some attention, make some more movies, I just dont see that Bio will ever be the success story your hoping for. It is a bit more difficult to do than you first thought eh?

[Tim-HJ61]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

One of our WA mob is in China at the moment, helping them produce Biodiesel and getting supply and plant sorted to replace big diesel gensets in big hotels in Africa. He was talking about how much more advanced China is with digesters and alternative fuelling. Might be worth seeing what Dr Google comes up with if you can poke around China for a bit.

[peter1]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

HAHA!

No, not black diesel.

If there was ever anything that had it's day in the sun, it's veg Fuels for the reasons you mention and more.
I remember back at the objectives of the greenwashed wanting to put Biofuels in every tank and the crap they went on with. Anyone that did it for the cost saving was the devil and to be scorned. Funny how all the greenwashed came and went in about 2 min flat and the people they put Chit on are still doing it long after they went and found another shiny object to grab their attention!

What amazes me is there is technology out there to Viably turn garbage into fuel and it's got none of the hype Veg fuels did as flawed as that was from the start. The garbage fuels are so much more practical on so many levels including compatibility with new engines but no one out there is doing it. From my experience, Building a Garbage reactor is a heap simpler, easier, cheaper and requires far less input than a bio reactor.

If people wanted to champion an alternative fuel with some reasonable and real practicality, this would be the one to go with as the gimmick of choice.

[SUZUDDIS]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

Peter1 , please don't let it be Black Diesel or the recycling of old engine oil. ,!!
I'd rather promote the use of a nontoxic Bio Diesel. Sorry not saying you are using black diesel.

Bob
Wow what a fiasco. Where does one find this tv episode ? I haven't seen any but I might as well have a look now that it is getting promoted here.
If you where paid to make a reality tv show then I guess you probably worked harder than Hamish and Andy (12 million dollars) or some stupid twit locked in a house. Sorry I should edit "twit" out.

If you got a boat built well done. I can't. If you got a land rover running before it blew up well youre a land rover owner. Be happy thousands still own them.

Let's make something positive from this. Every day above the ground is a good one and if you're looking at a nice bottle of the golden fluid you're already having a good time. Unless you spilled it on the ground.

Remember we're here to learn and teach.
Just don't tell anyone where the good oil is located.

Michael

[Captaincademan]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

As long as its not Black Diesel. I think that one has had its day in the sun.

[peter1]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

I suggest if you want to make a real change, focus on a fuel source that does not add to the worlds problems if mass produced (we all know about the current fossil fuel problems, and thats why we home brew for the most part). Let me know when you find one, because I think they all have major drawbacks.

You know, You actually gave me a workable idea for the fuel for the basis of a trip.
It's something I have been working on and while it isn't a replacement for fossil fuels, it's a reuse of several fossil fuel based products that would go a hell of along way further to stretching fossil fuel supplies that Veg ever would.

I could get this stuff thrown at me anywhere and processing would not need any additives like Bio or filtering and drying like SVO.
Processing may take a little time but I reckon 2-400L a day would be practical. With a bit of engineering input , I think an on board on the fly system would be entirely practical. Perhaps I could interest a uni or engineering company to help me out with that? It would have to be a pretty uncivilised place Not to have the feedstock I'd require.

Maybe I should look at this a bit more serious now I have the Concept because it would be about 20 times more practical and achievable than other similar hair brained schemes.