Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

VW Golf TDI and biodiesel

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • VW Golf TDI and biodiesel

    I'm looking around for a turbo diesel and test drove a Golf today at McGraths Liverpool. Stamped across the inside of the fuel cap was "Do not use biodiesel". The salesman said it applied to all TDI models in Aust. and was because the engine was not designed to take it - I held my tongue of course, but really what's the problem VW has with biodiesel?

  • #2
    Re: VW Golf TDI and biodiesel

    Hi Shelldrake,

    there are quite a few different threads on various manufacturers responses to use of BD in Australia. I'm yet to read a response that is even close to satisfying, and some are downright insulting.
    Others who have had direct contact with a manufacturer may want to comment on their experience.

    But the TD Golf is an example of a car that is allowed to run on biodiesel blend in Europe, but not at all here!
    The best the manufacturers can do is mumble something about Australian standards, which may (only may) have ahd some truth to it once upon a time,
    but increasingly is used as a convenient cop-out.

    With some major oil companies already blending 2% BD in their dinodiesel (they don't have to say under 5%), this would make for an interesting conversation with the manufacturers...

    Hopefully in time (and with continued lobbying) we will see less of this prohibition from the manufacturers.

    cheers,

    Geoff.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: VW Golf TDI and biodiesel

      I've written to them several times and they have officially ignored me. I had planned on buying the new Golf next year, but I will now be getting the new Mazda 626 that is releasing a diesel model this year. I loved the idea of the Golf and it WILL work with Biodiesel. The only problem is ignorance.

      This issue will be addressed by a body that will represent the biodiesel industry in Australia soon. We, as a consumer group can do our part by nagging manufacturers as hard as we can and trying to educate them.
      The reason most manufacturers are shy of biodiesel here is that they think it is not widely commercially available, therefore users might put homebrew in their cars. The question of whether homebrew would meet spec or not is irrelevant, as it cannot be proved to be consistent. The real truth of the matter is that no manufacturer provides warranty for any kind of fuel.
      The only question is will biodiesel cause parts to corrode or fail? The answer to this question is quite simple: NO. But to qualify it better if it is a new car, they will not be using components made from nitrile rubber, as the current Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel fuel that you buy will have problems with this (see this thread for more info) and therefore will also have no problem with biodiesel. There is some industry misinformation regarding corrosive qualities of vegetable oil on some components. The reason this is misinformation is that those tests were done on diesel mixed with unreacted straight vegetable oil. This is NOT biodiesel, yet many in the vehicle industry think it is.

      Anyway, I'm rambling.

      To sum up: I will hopefully soon have some better information for you all on an Australian Industry body to represent biodiesel and push for change with manufacturers. In the mean time, don't give into ignorance and do your own research. Hopefully, this will also rub off on local representatives of vehicle manufacturers.
      Robert
      Administrator
      Last edited by Robert; 1 May 2006, 12:33 AM.
      Robert.
      Site Admin.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: VW Golf TDI and biodiesel

        Hi, this is a bit of a late response to this thread, I have been away for a month...
        Anyway, my 5 cents worth:

        There are a number of separate issues here, and based on my research into VW TDI issues both in the US and Europe as well as here, my comments on these issues are...

        1. Australian dealers and car company reps generally talk out of ignorance, whether it is hteir own ignorance or corporately mandated ignorance. Robert and others have commented many times on the reasons for this. Hence the dealer's comment that no VW engines are designed to take biodiesel. This seems to be VW Australia's position irrespective of the position in europe (some VWs approved for bio - I will explain the "some" below) and the US (all VWs OK for B5 but NOT higher).

        2. However, the thick plottens...
        Any VW TDI with "NICHT FUR BIODIESEL" or the english "Do not use biodiesel" indicates that there is a DPF (diesel particulate filter) in the exhaust that has some chemical injected into it to react with the exhaust and reduce particulates, making diesel cleaner in polluted euro cities. The chemical apparently either doesn't work with biodiesel or reacts badly with it, but either way the vehicle doesn't meet whatever particulate standard with bio in this case (and VW withdraws any previous approval for use with high-concentrations of bio). I have read considerable discussion in the german "touareg-freunde" website regarding VW plans to add DPI technology to the "workhorse" 2.5l 5cyl TDI in Touaregs (my engine) that is otherwise approved for biodiesel in germany with no mods. My owners manual indicates that the V6 & V10 TDI engine options for the Touareg would preclude bio because of this DPI. See the thread on this site concerning the peugeot and this type of filter, for discussion of whether this is a real issue or just another furphy. Thus it may actually be the case that even in europe the current golf may indeed be "NICHT FUR BIODIESEL".

        3. The other part of the dealer comment about "no VW engines are designed for biodiesel" actually relates to options that are available for euro-VWs to actually make them more bio-friendly, and he is essentially saying that these are not available in Australia. As far as I can work out, these mods are limited to heated fuel lines and (I think) a different fuel filter (to cope with changes from petro-diesel etc). My owners manual simply says that you should limit the use of bio in cold ambient and clean the fuel filter every 15k instead of 30k, and my VW is standard (but without DPF).

        4. Anyway, none of the old issues of rubber components etc are applicable to these engines, there are no issues at all at or below B5.


        cheers,

        ..Neil
        ..Neil

        VW Touareg R5 TDI

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: VW Golf TDI and biodiesel

          Thanks Neil - very good info. It seems that we all need to get to the bottom of this particulate filter issue properly as at the moment we are unarmed against what is potentially just some more ignorance manifesting as the enemy of biodiesel again.
          Robert.
          Site Admin.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: VW Golf TDI and biodiesel

            In response to Moonan's comments about VW's plans to add particulate filters (DPF) to the 2.5 TDI engine as used in the Touraeg R5 and Transporter TDI I can confirm that my new Transporter was delivered last week with this system fitted.

            To be fair I didn't specifically ask VW if this would be fitted, I just knew that the engine was bio compatible and planned to try some in the future.

            Now I am wondering if this system can be easily removed, restoring the ability to use bio?

            I suppose removing it would invalidate the warranty. Bugger.

            Cheers,

            John K

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: VW Golf TDI and biodiesel

              Originally posted by John K View Post
              In response to Moonan's comments about VW's plans to add particulate filters (DPF) to the 2.5 TDI engine as used in the Touraeg R5 and Transporter TDI I can confirm that my new Transporter was delivered last week with this system fitted.

              To be fair I didn't specifically ask VW if this would be fitted, I just knew that the engine was bio compatible and planned to try some in the future.

              Now I am wondering if this system can be easily removed, restoring the ability to use bio?

              I suppose removing it would invalidate the warranty. Bugger.

              Cheers,

              John K
              John,

              our 2007 VW Caddy 1.9 L TDI engine runs like a dream on Biodiesel.
              I have now done 7700 Km on anything up to 100% Biodiesel (from new) without any problems.
              The only problem is that Biodiesel has a much higher viscosity then PetroDiesel and will give problems in cold weather. I run a 20% Biodiesel/ 80% Petrodiesl mix in the winter. (temperatures drop to about -5C where I live in SA).
              When I start the engine I rum it at about 2000 rpm and wait for about 10 seconds when the engine speeds up and I know I can go without any problems.

              I have been trying to find out about what is different with the European "heated" fuel system, as mentioned before in this forum, but have been unable to get information so far.

              I would appreciate information, on the heated fuel system, if anyone can help.
              Regards,

              Arie (DutchAussie)
              2007 VW Caddy 1.9 L TDI with DSG

              Australian VW Caddy Website:
              http://vw-caddy.yolasite.com

              Australian VW Caddy Forum:
              http://www.getphpbb.com/phpbb/index.php?mforum=d

              Australian Biodiesel Handbook:
              http://www.biodiesel-handbook.yolasite.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: VW Golf TDI and biodiesel

                Dutch,

                does your Caddy have DPF ?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: VW Golf TDI and biodiesel

                  Originally posted by NewBioer View Post
                  Dutch,

                  does your Caddy have DPF ?
                  Yes, I was told our VW Caddy has a DPF.
                  I will shortly get under the car and try and find it.
                  Regards,

                  Arie (DutchAussie)
                  2007 VW Caddy 1.9 L TDI with DSG

                  Australian VW Caddy Website:
                  http://vw-caddy.yolasite.com

                  Australian VW Caddy Forum:
                  http://www.getphpbb.com/phpbb/index.php?mforum=d

                  Australian Biodiesel Handbook:
                  http://www.biodiesel-handbook.yolasite.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: VW Golf TDI and biodiesel

                    Just thought I would add my experience. I have been running my Golf TDI 1.9 on B100 for 10000km, no problems. I personally believe the no biodiesel policy is just to do with lack of balls. Oxidative stability in the PD engines might be an issue for Volkswagen, however what they don't realise is that the bio only polymerises on the injectors if it is bad quality fuel...not because of the high injection pressures.

                    Anyway, good luck picking the car. I love my TDI. Would buy another if I had the money.

                    Alex

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: VW Golf TDI and biodiesel

                      Originally posted by John K View Post
                      Now I am wondering if this system can be easily removed, restoring the ability to use bio?
                      I suppose removing it would invalidate the warranty. Bugger.
                      Cheers,
                      John K
                      You might find that removing the system is illegal. It may be fitted to make the engine comply with emission requirements.
                      In the early 70's petrol engine vehicles in Aust started being fitted with emission control systems and it was illegal (although common) to remove, disconnect or disable them. Then in 1985 unleaded petrol was introduced to allow the use use of catalytic converters (not to reduce the lead emissions to the atmosphere) as the lead coats the catalyst and disables it resulting in increased HC and CO emissions (no effect on Nox as it is controlled by EGR).
                      Since 1985 it has been illegal to a) remove the catalytic converter, b) operate a vehicle with an inoperative catalytic converter, c) use leaded petrol in a post '85 vehicle.
                      I am well out of touch with the current situation as I left the industry in '98 so I may be well off regarding diesel particulate filters but I imagine that if biodiesel use can disable the particulate filter and the filter is required by law then it may be technically illegal to use bio in a vehicle so equipped.
                      Of course it may be unenforceable but I would not suggest that anyone should break a law just because it is unenforceable.

                      I do wonder about these new engines with electronic control of the injection.
                      In petrol engines the exhaust gas composition is sensed and input to the control computer to influence the injection. If this is done on the new tech diesels then perhaps the different exhaust composition from high ratios of bio could alter the injection control. If so I imagine it would be a relatively simple matter for the right person to alter the programing of the control computer to suit bio but then it would not suit petro-diesel - problems, problems!
                      Then I wonder about these same engines on SVO. Even greater difference in exhaust gas composition and with a 2 tank system the need to be able to run properly on both Veg and diesel.
                      I am pleased to have a 1998 model diesel.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: VW Golf TDI and biodiesel

                        In regards to manufacturers; I called Holden to check their policy on BIO.BUt read a few stuff on the forum before so was informed a bit. So I spoke to this person and asked whats the policy with bio. He was totally negative towards it and sayign some jive about it leaves junk in the engine(We all know why's that) and damages lines (). Anyway i asked him about the new ULSD(ultra low sulfur diesel) he didn't know what that was. I told him its the standard diesel and like bio it affects the lines too (causes swelling instead of shrinkage like bio) and that its everywhere.So if you can't use bio, why is it we can use ULSD. He said, after checking, that we shouldn't use ULSD (). Hahahahahhahahahaha thats the industry and governmental standard now and most places you go has it (since pre 2004). In short they don't know much and where down right insulting.
                        alex

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: VW Golf TDI and biodiesel

                          The mian issue with biodiesel in new VW's (and any other make) with DPF's is Post injection of fuel to clear the DPF. When the fuel enters the cylinder some unburnt fuel is passed through to engine lubricating oil. This happens all the time with egines burning diesel but more so with FAME/RME being denser. Petrolium diesel will evaporate over time but biodiesel does not.
                          Biodiesel oxidises in the engine oil and effects metals found in bearings etc this leads to engine wear. Increasing levels of sump oil can also lead to problems.

                          Regular oil changes and minimising short journeys may help to lower the effect.

                          Uncle Slabs
                          Vauxhall Combo 1.7d non heated filter, using HDUCOME B50-B100. Bodywork mods: Rust & dents!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: VW Golf TDI and biodiesel

                            Originally posted by slabster View Post
                            The main issue with biodiesel in new VW's (and any other make) with DPF's is Post injection of fuel to clear the DPF. When the fuel enters the cylinder some unburnt fuel is passed through to engine lubricating oil. This happens all the time with egines burning diesel but more so with FAME/RME being denser. Petrolium diesel will evaporate over time but biodiesel does not.
                            Biodiesel oxidises in the engine oil and effects metals found in bearings etc this leads to engine wear. Increasing levels of sump oil can also lead to problems.

                            Regular oil changes and minimising short journeys may help to lower the effect.

                            Uncle Slabs
                            Slabster have you experienced this?
                            Evaporation of fuel has little to do with density.
                            Water is much denser than Diesel or Biodiesel but will boil out of the engine oil at 100 C.
                            Diesel and Biodiesel boil over a range of temperatures.
                            This is measured in a laboratory as Initial Boiling Point (IBP) and Final Boiling Point (FBP).
                            The Final Boiling Point of both fuels is well above the engine oil temperature during normal operation and therefore any Diesel or Biodiesel passing into the sump will stay there.
                            What about piston ring?
                            Aren't they supposed to stop fuels entering the sump?
                            I have never seen a rise in my engine oil and I now have done 42,000 Km on 100% Biodiesel in our VW Caddy with the 1.9L TDI engine.
                            It runs like a dream on home made Biodiesel.
                            DutchAussie
                            Member
                            Last edited by DutchAussie; 24 October 2010, 05:46 PM. Reason: Spelling
                            Regards,

                            Arie (DutchAussie)
                            2007 VW Caddy 1.9 L TDI with DSG

                            Australian VW Caddy Website:
                            http://vw-caddy.yolasite.com

                            Australian VW Caddy Forum:
                            http://www.getphpbb.com/phpbb/index.php?mforum=d

                            Australian Biodiesel Handbook:
                            http://www.biodiesel-handbook.yolasite.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: VW Golf TDI and biodiesel

                              My wife got sick of my old jap import diesel sedans 'always one in pieces in the shed'. Well this isn't really true, but she got herself a 05 caddy TDi (pumpeduse) when I was away which would never be any trouble. The first came as a plaintive call from Sydney, due for the 120 thousand k service.
                              "VW wants $2400 to do this. Will you do it?" I reminded her that I don't usually spend that much when I buy a car.
                              "F(*& right I'll do it." Anyway it went well on BD 50 for a couple weeks while I organized timing belt etc. And with the valve cover off checked out the camshaft. This turned out to have some damage still at an early stage. PD engines do that apparently. Wade Camshafts in Melbourne fixed that, ground a couple lobes, cleaned copper smeared bearing journals, Rockwell tested the ground lobes(OK) all for $190 including freight. Four black lifters, bearings, seals, single use stretch bearing cap bolts etc. (VW, I couldn't find aftermarket stuff in Australia another $500 or so). So it is going back together ok but the camshaft is stiff. If it seizes I lose all so I am having a glorified bearing scraper made - a polished shaft exactly the same size as the bearing journals with a longitudinal slot machined down the length and one corner ground away, slightly to begin with to just touch the high points on the bearings until the cam turns freely. You can't torque the new bolts all the way by the way until you are happy.
                              Anyway biofuel was another potential problem and it has to do with the DPF which I find works like this: it catches soot and if you are running longish hot runs it burns it out as you go. But if you are doing short runs around town it doesn't and the pressure on both sides of the DPF unit is monitored by the computer. At a certain threshold the vehicle goes into a burnout mode in which fuel is injected during the exhaust stroke and here is where you get into strife - the higher viscosity of bio means unburnt fuel tends to stick to the cylinder wall and ends up in your sump where it dilutes your oil and destroys its properties making the pumpe duse cam with its ridiculous little thin lobes even more likely to raise hell with the lifters. Synthetic oils are not affected anywhere near the way ordinary oils are.
                              My neighbouring VW enthusiast who sold my wife on these things tells me my caddy doesn't even have DPF in which case the only other variation from Euroland for bio is a more resistant rubber connector in the fuel tank inlet.
                              IF I have one I would consider destroying it - pushing a rod through all that ceramic and platinum group metal crap and getting rid of it so there will never BE any monitored back pressure differential - this so and so owes me too much not to run on biodiesel. However do your own research rather than doing anything stupid on my say so.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X